Proposal: Leon Draisaitl + Jesse Puljujarvi for Ivan Provorov + Anthony Stolarz

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ManofSteel55

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You stated draft + 1 season. The WJC that you're talking about was Nurse's D+2 season. Did either of those players win the CHL Dman of the year award in D+1 season?

My bad on the year he dominated the WJC. And no, they didn't win CHL Dman of the year. That particular award is no guarantee of stardom though. Look at the last 10 winners.

Provorov, DeAngelo, Pouliot, Sproul, Hamilton, Ellis, Savard, Blum Alzner, Russell. None are top pair defensemen in the NHL today (although Hamilton would be if not for Giordano and Brodie).

If you have truly watched Provorov play that many times, it shouldn't be hard to narrow down an actual number. 15-20 is quite the range. You must get good WHL coverage in PA.

EDIT - Did you see how invisible he was in the Memorial Cup? Did you watch him outplayed by a teammate who is a year younger and was drafted in the 2nd round this year during the majority of the WHL playoffs?
 
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McSuper

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Provorov is better than the four you have listed, the kid is that good. He has spent years here in North America for a reason. Once Ron let's him on the club he will not act like a rookie. Nurse I am not sold on,I question his hockey IQ, Reinhart needs way more time in the minors. I do like Klefbom but Larsson is average at best( I still cannot believe how bad the oilers got hosed in that deal).

Larsson is average at best yet all the advanced stats doesn't show that . Care to explain how an average D can hide on the top pairing to the point of making his stat line look amazing . I don't care about his +15 on a weak NJD team . His box protection is at the top of the league . This is something you just can't hide
 

victor

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You stated draft + 1 season. The WJC that you're talking about was Nurse's D+2 season. Did either of those players win the CHL Dman of the year award in D+1 season?

And I have watched Provorov probably 15-20 or so times, including 1 in person last year with the Flyers in preseason.

Oiler's did have a player that won both CHL defenseman of the year and the Memorial cup in his draft year, 2005.

Danny Syvret.
 

Homesick

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You stated draft + 1 season. The WJC that you're talking about was Nurse's D+2 season. Did either of those players win the CHL Dman of the year award in D+1 season?
You've already lost the argument that Larsson was much more highly touted than Provorov in their draft years so now you've targeted Nurse and Reinhart. :laugh:

What does the CHL Dman of the year award prove? If the award is an indicator of what you think Provorovs NHL career will be then you're in for a huge disappointment.
 

McSuper

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You would have thought Philly fans would learn to temper expectations after they went thru jvr. Couturier was also the next great 1c and turned into a 3c. Provorov as a prospect is suddenly better than an established top pairing D? No. Just no. Calm your ****.

Provorov wouldn't even get draisaitl who is a proven nhl center. You'd be lucky to get Puljujarvi

LOL . This is crazy talk . D have more value . If both players reach their potential Provorov is worth more .
1 line winger >>>>> #1 D . Like it or not . Sorry Flyer fans . The OP is clearly an overpayment from the Oilers but some of the statements here are way off base . I would think fellow Oilers fans would appreciate D more after the gong show we been for years .

Value does not always mean you make the deal . Having said the above I would not trade Pulju for Provorov because we are also very weak on RW . Ederle , Yak and Kassain . Can't real afford to do the deal . Nothing to do with value .
 

Homesick

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LOL . This is crazy talk . D have more value . If both players reach their potential Provorov is worth more .
1 line winger >>>>> #1 D . Like it or not . Sorry Flyer fans . The OP is clearly an overpayment from the Oilers but some of the statements here are way off base . I would think fellow Oilers fans would appreciate D more after the gong show we been for years .

Value does not always mean you make the deal . Having said the above I would not trade Pulju for Provorov because we are also very weak on RW . Ederle , Yak and Kassain . Can't real afford to do the deal . Nothing to do with value .
The Oilers don't need another LHD prospect. You would think you would appreciate that
 

ManofSteel55

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LOL . This is crazy talk . D have more value . If both players reach their potential Provorov is worth more .
1 line winger >>>>> #1 D . Like it or not . Sorry Flyer fans . The OP is clearly an overpayment from the Oilers but some of the statements here are way off base . I would think fellow Oilers fans would appreciate D more after the gong show we been for years .

Value does not always mean you make the deal . Having said the above I would not trade Pulju for Provorov because we are also very weak on RW . Ederle , Yak and Kassain . Can't real afford to do the deal . Nothing to do with value .

If D always have more value, why do they always get drafted after the top forwards in the draft? Because with prospects, GM's take the players that are most likely to reach a high upside. Defensemen and goalies are much harder to predict than forwards.

Now, if you had said that proven top line NHL defenseman have more value than proven top line NHL wingers of equal caliber, I would agree for the most part. But not necessarily with prospects. Top defense prospects can and do often not reach their perceived upside. The top forward prospects miss much less often. If both Provorov and Pulujarvi reach their peak, Provorov will be more valuable. But its more likely that Pulujarvi reaches that potential.
 

Roo Mad Bro

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My bad on the year he dominated the WJC. And no, they didn't win CHL Dman of the year. That particular award is no guarantee of stardom though. Look at the last 10 winners.

Provorov, DeAngelo, Pouliot, Sproul, Hamilton, Ellis, Savard, Blum Alzner, Russell. None are top pair defensemen in the NHL today (although Hamilton would be if not for Giordano and Brodie).

If you have truly watched Provorov play that many times, it shouldn't be hard to narrow down an actual number. 15-20 is quite the range. You must get good WHL coverage in PA.

EDIT - Did you see how invisible he was in the Memorial Cup? Did you watch him outplayed by a teammate who is a year younger and was drafted in the 2nd round this year during the majority of the WHL playoffs?
Yeah I guess I should count exactly how many games I watch so next time I have dates and times for ya. Might as well write a scouting report for every viewing too while I'm at it. Should I send my reports to you via mail? Not sure how much tech you guys have way up North.

Did you see how his whole team played poorly? He was probably the best out of the garbage that the team put up, but yes, he didn't play his best during the Memorial Cup. And Provorov has gone on record that during playoff time he plays a more conservative game that isn't conducive for high scoring. I don't agree with it but that's where he's at.

BTW did you see his play in the WJC? Any thoughts on his play during that best on best tourney?
 

Homesick

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If D always have more value, why do they always fall in the draft? Because with prospects, GM's take the players that are most likely to reach a high upside. Defensemen and goalies are much harder to predict than forwards.

Now, if you had said that proven top line NHL defenseman have more value than proven top line NHL wingers of equal caliber, I would agree for the most part. But not necessarily with prospects.
Exactly. How many of the top defenseman in the league today are drafted outside the top 10? This fact is also not lost on scouting teams.
 

McSuper

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If D always have more value, why do they always get drafted after the top forwards in the draft? Because with prospects, GM's take the players that are most likely to reach a high upside. Defensemen and goalies are much harder to predict than forwards.

Now, if you had said that proven top line NHL defenseman have more value than proven top line NHL wingers of equal caliber, I would agree for the most part. But not necessarily with prospects. Top defense prospects can and do often not reach their perceived upside. The top forward prospects miss much less often. If both Provorov and Pulujarvi reach their peak, Provorov will be more valuable. But its more likely that Pulujarvi reaches that potential.

Because there more risk and forward take less time to develop a forward . D takes years . If D don't have as much value then Hall doesn't get moved . D are the hardest thing to get in the NHL
 

ManofSteel55

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Yeah I guess I should count exactly how many games I watch so next time I have dates and times for ya. Might as well write a scouting report for every viewing too while I'm at it. Should I send my reports to you via mail? Not sure how much tech you guys have way up North.

Did you see how his whole team played poorly? He was probably the best out of the garbage that the team put up, but yes, he didn't play his best during the Memorial Cup. And Provorov has gone on record that during playoff time he plays a more conservative game that isn't conducive for high scoring. I don't agree with it but that's where he's at.

BTW did you see his play in the WJC? Any thoughts on his play during that best on best tourney?

Don't need dates and times, I just find it funny that you can't remember if it was 15 or 20. Shouldn't be too hard for someone to figure that out.

I think he played well in the WJC.

And as someone who was at the Mem Cup, he wasn't "the best of the garbage". Kale Clague was better. Nolan Patrick was far better. John Quennville was better. He had an awful tournament. It happens, but it shows that your perfect unflawless gem of a defenseman does have his issues, and isn't as sure-fire as you guys think.

Whenever you start thinking about how PRovorov is the best d-man prospect in the world, just remember...Cam. Barker.

That way it won't be so disappointing if he doesn't live up to this "Lidstrom" potential that you guys think he has.
 

ManofSteel55

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Because there more risk and forward take less time to develop a forward . D takes years . If D don't have as much value then Hall doesn't get moved . D are the hardest thing to get in the NHL

Your 1st two sentences are exactly why GM's value top tier forward prospects above top tier defense prospects. As I said, at this stage, Pulujarvi is likely more valuable around the league. If both players reach their top perceived upside, Provorov will be.
 

Homesick

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Yeah I guess I should count exactly how many games I watch so next time I have dates and times for ya. Might as well write a scouting report for every viewing too while I'm at it. Should I send my reports to you via mail? Not sure how much tech you guys have way up North.

Did you see how his whole team played poorly? He was probably the best out of the garbage that the team put up, but yes, he didn't play his best during the Memorial Cup. And Provorov has gone on record that during playoff time he plays a more conservative game that isn't conducive for high scoring. I don't agree with it but that's where he's at.

BTW did you see his play in the WJC? Any thoughts on his play during that best on best tourney?
How about that Puljujarvi in the WJHC?
Provorov looked good for Russia but Joulevi and Werenski were(and are) better
 

McSuper

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Exactly. How many of the top defenseman in the league today are drafted outside the top 10? This fact is also not lost on scouting teams.

Teams like players that can make the team now . D take years to develop and are harder to predict .
Really I can not believe this is being argued .

Hall top LW , top 3 in the game = Larsson #2 RHD . I see Larsson as more but unless his offensive develops more most will not see him as anything more then a 2 . Also Chia said after he got Larsson he's a number 2

#1 ?? ( Maybe Chia think Klefbom will become one )
#2 Larsson
# 3 Sekera . Chia said he an anchor for the 2nd pairing
 

ManofSteel55

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Teams like players that can make the team now . D take years to develop and are harder to predict .
Really I can not believe this is being argued .

Hall top LW , top 3 in the game = Larsson #2 RHD . I see Larsson as more but unless his offensive develops more most will not see him as anything more then a 2 . Also Chia said after he got Larsson he's a number 2

#1 ?? ( Maybe Chia think Klefbom will become one )
#2 Larsson
# 3 Sekera . Chia said he an anchor for the 2nd pairing

You are the only one arguing. I agree with your statement about top tier wingers vs top tier defensemen. But the draft is evidence that prospect forwards have more value than prospect defensemen, and you are even supplying the evidence.

"D take years to develop and are harder to predict". Yep, and that's why forwards have more value until they are established. Which is why your "defense have more value" statement is untrue (in my mind). Not because it isn't accurate with top tier players, but because it isn't accurate with comparable players in every possible situation (ie, prospects). You are suggesting it is a universal rule, and it isn't.
 

Homesick

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Teams like players that can make the team now . D take years to develop and are harder to predict .
Really I can not believe this is being argued .

Hall top LW , top 3 in the game = Larsson #2 RHD . I see Larsson as more but unless his offensive develops more most will not see him as anything more then a 2 . Also Chia said after he got Larsson he's a number 2

#1 ?? ( Maybe Chia think Klefbom will become one )
#2 Larsson
# 3 Sekera . Chia said he an anchor for the 2nd pairing
But an NHL 2C >>> LHD prospect. As you stated yourself that D take longer and are harder to predict so why would any GM with half a brain even think about Draisaitl for Provorov??
Look at defenseman drafted 2006-2011 in the 5th-10th range
Hamilton #2
Brodin #4
McIlrath #7
Cowan #7
Schenn #6
Ellerby Bust
Alzner #2
 

bauer

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If you don't care then why comment? :dunce:
If everyone agreed with every post this forum would have shut down in 2002

1) I see no pissing match here. Lots of open and honest discussions about prospects, but I don't see anyone debating whose are better.

2) Nobody is asking others to change their mind. If that was the point of HFBoards' trading section, it may as well be locked up entirely.

3) Nobody is making you read it, some of us are still enjoying a discussion on prospects and positional value.

did you miss the first several pages of this thread where 99% of people said it was clearly an uneven trade? mods have always locked trade proposal threads that are that lopsided. if you want to start a new debate, do a poll or start a separate thread. why keep bumping this?
 

ManofSteel55

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did you miss the first several pages of this thread where 99% of people said it was clearly an uneven trade? mods have always locked trade proposal threads that are that lopsided. if you want to start a new debate, do a poll or start a separate thread. why keep bumping this?

Because we are having a discussion.

If you don't like it, why keep coming back? And why are you sidetracking a discussion that others are having?

Nevermind, don't answer.
 

Tripod

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Man oh man...why all the bickering?

Almost every Flyers fan has said the same thing...the OP is bad for Edmonton. And because of NEED, Philly won't be moving Provorov since finding a #1 Dman is our biggest need.

Hextall felt Provy would be the best dman of the draft.....and he had a great year...CHL Dman of the year...and great WJC...8 points in 7 games.

People talk about his bad play in the Memorial cup. He played 3 games. He was 3rd star against RN. He had 4 shots and was even against Red Deer. So really...people are talking about 1 bad game against London. I guess he is not allowed to have a bad game against the best team in Jr.

People say Clague was great in playoffs and Provy wasn't:

Clague 14 points +5, 0 GWG
Provy 13 points +22, 1 GWG

I would be quite happy with any of the 3 top guys in the OP being discussed. Quite happy that Philly has the one that could also fill their biggest need.

Philly currently have 2 RW better than Pool party.
Philly currently have a #1 C and Couts as a #2

Their NEED is a #1 Dman...Provy gives us hope to fill that spot. Edmonton had to trade Hall to try and fill a need. Philly is keeping Provy to try and fill theirs.

Both fan bases are happy with their guys....let's keep it that way.
 
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Curufinwe

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It's irritating that you keep forcing me to one up you. Anybody who knows anything about prospects knows that Larsson was more highly regarded.

http://sports.yahoo.com/juniorhockey/news?slug=ss-larsson100810



Are you serious? Timothy Liljegren has something to say about that. As does Zach Werenski. Noah Hanifin would also, but he's already crushing the NHL. Is he really better than Juolevi? Probably not. You guys are full force homering this thread and it's amazing.

Hanifin crushing the NHL? :laugh: And you have the nerve to call other people homers.
 

Homesick

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Hanifin crushing the NHL? :laugh: And you have the nerve to call other people homers.
Compared to Provorov, yes. Compared to at least a 100 other NHL defenseman probably not. But yes, it was a poor choice of words by the quoted poster
 

Maukkis

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Oiler's did have a player that won both CHL defenseman of the year and the Memorial cup in his draft year, 2005.

Danny Syvret.

Thank you. SO much.

It's good to remember the reality every once in a while.
 

ManofSteel55

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Man oh man...why all the bickering?

Almost every Flyers fan has said the same thing...the OP is bad for Edmonton. And because of NEED, Philly won't be moving Provorov since finding a #1 Dman is our biggest need.

Hextall felt Provy would be the best dman of the draft.....and he had a great year...CHL Dman of the year...and great WJC...8 points in 7 games.

People talk about his bad play in the Memorial cup. He played 3 games. He was 3rd star against RN. He had 4 shots and was even against Red Deer. So really...people are talking about 1 bad game against London. I guess he is not allowed to have a bad game against the best team in Jr.

People say Clague was great in playoffs and Provy wasn't:

Clague 14 points +5, 0 GWG
Provy 13 points +22, 1 GWG

I would be quite happy with any of the 3 top guys in the OP being discussed. Quite happy that Philly has the one that could also fill their biggest need.

Philly currently have 2 RW better than Pool party.
Philly currently have a #1 C and Couts as a #2

Their NEED is a #1 Dman...Provy gives us hope to fill that spot. Edmonton had to trade Hall to try and fill a need. Philly is keeping Provy to try and fill theirs.

Both fan bases are happy with their guys....let's keep it that way.

I don't see much bickering. Just a discussion about prospects. We can disagree on value of prospects, or potential, or whatever, without it being "bickering". :nod:
 

Starat327

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I don't see much bickering. Just a discussion about prospects. We can disagree on value of prospects, or potential, or whatever, without it being "bickering". :nod:

You're right. There isn't much bickering. As Tripod said, most Philly fans agree the OP is a deal wed have to take- however reluctantly. The bickering comes from people - I won't generalize and say Edmonton fans because I'm admittedly too lazy to look them up - asking who stolarz is, let alone both prospects- as has been questioned more than once in this thread. Let alone someone calling Provorov the oilers 12th best D prospect(if he were acquired), when he'd relatively easily make the big club next year.

Sane flyer fans all agree - this deal is too good to pass up. But there are a lot of people acting like there is no value in the best (or second best, I don't care to argue) D prospect in the world and a pretty promising G prospect (we get it, they carry less value) who is progressing very well. We've acknowledge the OP is bad for Edmonton. I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that there isn't enough value coming back to warrant consideration without making it seem like both pieces coming back don't carry any value.
 

stokes84

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You're right. There isn't much bickering. As Tripod said, most Philly fans agree the OP is a deal wed have to take- however reluctantly. The bickering comes from people - I won't generalize and say Edmonton fans because I'm admittedly too lazy to look them up - asking who stolarz is, let alone both prospects- as has been questioned more than once in this thread. Let alone someone calling Provorov the oilers 12th best D prospect(if he were acquired), when he'd relatively easily make the big club next year.

Sane flyer fans all agree - this deal is too good to pass up. But there are a lot of people acting like there is no value in the best (or second best, I don't care to argue) D prospect in the world and a pretty promising G prospect (we get it, they carry less value) who is progressing very well. We've acknowledge the OP is bad for Edmonton. I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that there isn't enough value coming back to warrant consideration without making it seem like both pieces coming back don't carry any value.

That's the problem. You wouldn't reluctantly take this, you would take it and laugh all the way to the bank because you are getting easily the two best players. I am not a fan of either team, but this thread has me fired up because of how homerish the flyers fans have been.
 
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