Leon Draisaitl 3rd 110+ point season in 4 years...

[MessierII]

4th fastest active player to 300 goals trailing Ovechkin, Stamkos and Crosby.

 

[Yackiberg8]

You seem to be having a difficult time understanding what I said and what I did not say, but more interestingly you seem to be challenged to understand what you said. The issue seems to be one of basic logic. Just because A is true does not mean that A implies B.

I have never said that McDavid is not the best offensive player in the league. he indisputably is. What I posted about was your assertion that this meant that McDavid would therefore increase everyone else's he plays with scoring more than anyone else in the league could.

Let me summarize...You made a statement involving a universal quantifier. I gave you a counterexample and hence your statement is provably false. The fact that you don't see that your rebuttal does not contradict this is again proof that both your argument is flawed and that you don't even understand what you are arguing in the first place.

(By the way the small sample is 5154 minutes Nuge played away from McDavid 5 vs 5 vs 1271 minutes with him over the last seven years. )

So you are sticking with your point that the guy who is leading the league in both goals and assists and leading in points by 26 would not be the one that would to increase those that play with him's scoring? Have you seen any of the Oilers PP this year? Right I forgot that you believe Nuge is the reason for the great PP.

This will be a shock to you but if any GM in the league could pick one player to have on their PP it would be McDavid unanimously.

 

[Fourier]

So you are sticking with your point that the guy who is leading the league in both goals and assists and leading in points by 26 would not be the one that would to increase those that play with him's scoring? Have you seen any of the Oilers PP this year? Right I forgot that you believe Nuge is the reason for the great PP.

This will be a shock to you but if any GM in the league could pick one player to have on their PP it would be McDavid unanimously.

You really do have a problem understanding simple statements. Show me anywhere in one of my posts where I said that Nuge is the soul reason for the the Oiler's pp success or that McDavid is not both the main reason for its success or the best player in the NHL. You don't even have to restrict yourself to this thread. Have a go at my entire posting history.

Take McDavid off the Oilers and put him on a random pp anywhere in the NHL. He would still be the best. What is false is that his presence would automatically inflate the point totals of every player on that pp at the same rate that the team's pp goals would increase. That was effectively your claim, though you did not restrict this to pp only.

I'll try this one more time. This is simple mathematics. A players scoring rate is determined by the following formula

pts/60 = GF/60 x IPP/100

where GF/60 is the team scoring rate with the player on the ice and IPP/100 is the proportion of points received by a player when a goal is scored with them on the ice.

McDavid increases GF but he also tends to decrease IPP/100 for virtually everyone he plays with because of two factors. 1) When he is on the ice, he has the puck and is involved in over 80% of goals scored. 2) When a goal is scored with McDavid involved there is a higher than normal chance that there will be less than two assist awarded. How much he increase GF and how much he decreases IPP/100 is a very individual thing.

In his first three years Nuge ran the Oiler pp. He had a point on 71% of the pp goals the Oilers scored while he was on the ice. Now he has an important role on the pp but it is certainly complementary. From 2019-2020 to 2021-22 he has had a point on 49% of the goals scored on the pp. Playing with McDavid and Draisaitl substantially increases the total number of goals the team scores on the pp while Nuge was on the ice but because his role went from primary to secondary his actual scoring rate on the pp actually identical with 5.91 pts/60 vs in his first three years and 5.91 pts/60 over the last three years prior to this year.

(Note that as I previously stated I purposely left out this year. For Nuge and the Oilers it has been an anomaly for pretty much everyone. First the team is drawing more pp's than ever. Their efficiency is 10% more efficient than ever and of course Mcdavid is a reason for this. But Nuge has also been incredibly aggressive on the pp and this shows with his IPP up to 60% so he is getting points on 20% more pp goals than he did over the last three years.)

What is more, 5 vs 5 Nuge's scoring rate in his first three years was 13% higher than it was with McDavid from 2019-2020 to 2021-22. There you go. Your thesis that everyone who plays with McDavid sees their production explode is false. Period.

So what does this have to do with Draisaitl?? The reality is that we do no know what would happen to Leon's production if he was traded. In fact, it depends on many factors. Certainly not playing with McDavid will have an impact. But what is unknown is how much of this is compensated for by Draisaitl having perhaps a more central role in the play. Put him between Pastrnak and Marchand and you may well see him match his current production because on the line he would be the guy with the puck most often instead of the second banana.

In the end everything is speculative. But what I can say is that even if he is a second banana, he is as talented as almost any second banana I have ever seen. The only rival in my time watching hockey might be Jagr to Lemieux. (Crosby to Malkin is different since they tend not to feed off one another the same way Leon and McDavid so.)

Now my guess is that you will read this and translate it to..."Dude...Do you know how good McDavid is. Maybe you should watch him play sometime." That's fine. Maybe someone else who believes your thesis will see that it is not in fact true.

 

[kranuck]

This guy is a beast. Him and McDavid are the only active players with 3x110+ point seasons when there there is only one other player (ovie) who has more than one.

In fact Drai and McDavid combined (6) have the same amount of of 110+ point seasons as the rest of the active NHL players combined (6)

Drai is also 3rd all time in playoffs PPG. How can anyone argue in good faith that he isn't the second best player in the NHL year after year? I think him being the best passer and a top 3 goal scorer in the league makes up for defensive lapses....

Because he hasn’t done anything without McDavid.

 

[Kerberos]

I wonder if Drai can flirt with matching Kuch's 128 point season. Needs 14 points in his final 8 games to do so.

 

[TippinOn44s]

Clear top-5 player in the league.

 

[K1900L]

Because he hasn’t done anything without McDavid.

McDavid hasn't done anything without Draisaitl either, in fact, he is trailing him in playoff points per game.
Kucherov and Draisaitl are also the only players who beat prime McDavid points wise, neither MacKinnon nor Matthews did that.

The claim that Draisaitl can't be the 2nd best player because he mostly plays with McDavid is just ridiculous as it doesn't comprise any argument, just a vague thesis.

 

[kranuck]

McDavid hasn't done anything without Draisaitl either, in fact, he is trailing him in playoff points per game.
Kucherov and Draisaitl are also the only players who beat prime McDavid points wise, neither MacKinnon nor Matthews did that.

The claim that Draisaitl can't be the 2nd best player because he mostly plays with McDavid is just ridiculous as it doesn't comprise any argument, just a vague thesis.

It's not fair to every other player to just ignore how obviously inflated his totals are by playing with McDavid.

Like if he's a 50/100 point player without McDavid that's still amazing and puts him in the conversation for 2nd best, but it's very debatable with guys like MacKinnon and Kucherov.

 

[Akrapovince]

Draisaitl has played 12 games without McDavid since 2018. He scored 19 points in those games.

That's a 130 point pace.

Small sample size for sure, but if he had 6 points in those games everyone would be using it against him without a doubt.

Everyone’s very quick to dismiss that Anaheim series he had too.

 

[Fourier]

It's not fair to every other player to just ignore how obviously inflated his totals are by playing with McDavid.

Like if he's a 50/100 point player without McDavid that's still amazing and puts him in the conversation for 2nd best, but it's very debatable with guys like MacKinnon and Kucherov.

You may want to read post #354 for an explanation why we have no idea how inflated Draisaitl's numbers are with McDavid.

Here is a bit of addition info to chew on:

Mikko Rantanen: 5vs5 point rates 2020-2023:

With MacKinnon 2.34 pts/60

Away from MacKinnon 2.37 pts/60

So why is it that Mikko Rantanen does not see his production drop off when he is not on a line with Nate MacKinnon but Draisaitl's numbers would definitely drop off big time playing with anyone other than McDavid including if he was to say play between Pastrnak and Marchand for example. .

 

[Peltz]

Not even close. He is easily the games 2nd best player. This is a Lemieux and Jagr situation again.

Well those two won cups. So not really.

Still, two beasts for sure.

 

[McFlash97]

I wonder if Drai can flirt with matching Kuch's 128 point season. Needs 14 points in his final 8 games to do so.

He would have tied or exceeded it during his Hart season and the Covid shortened season. This is the third season he is threatening Kucherov. Safe to say he is peaking higher than Kucherov.

 

[Homesick]

I wonder if Drai can flirt with matching Kuch's 128 point season. Needs 14 points in his final 8 games to do so.

He's had 17 points in his previous 8 but I'm not sure if they are going to ride Draisaitl/McDavid that much in these final 8 games. If they win the next two games I think they will but other wise I don't see the point.
4 games left vs ANA/SJ but also VGK, LA(x2) and COL

 

[dwonger]

Because he hasn’t done anything without McDavid.

How can he when they are on the same team should he take McDavid out? When McDavid is sick/injured he puts up like 1.75ppg.

 

[BayStBullies]

Well those two won cups. So not really.

Still, two beasts for sure.

I don't think the argument can work both ways that Drai is the product of McDavid; but also, hold the lack of cups against them without factoring in the rest of the team holding them back.

 

[Jerkbait]

His playmaking ability is otherworldly. The breakaway pass to RNH, the breakaway pass to McDavid and his pass on McDavid's 60th are plays that very few players even conceive, let alone execute.

Anybody who claims he's not, at worst, a top 3 player in the league doesn't know what they're talking about. Going to likely hit 50 goals again this year and 120 points. Insane.

No doubt he is a top tier offensive player. I don't have him top 3 but not far off.

 

[Jerkbait]

Well those two won cups. So not really.

Still, two beasts for sure.

Agreed,they need a cup to even be mentioned next to mario and jarg...the Oilers do remind me alot of the 95/96 pens which had 3x 100 points guys and nedved with 90 plus...

 

[Frank Drebin]

Because he hasn’t done anything without McDavid.

He needs to ask for a trade

 

[bergeronsboys]

Assist on the Kane goal tonight was disgusting, he’s the best passer in the league hands down in my opinion

 

[Homesick]

47G 69A 116Pts with 7 1/3 games left. 12 points doesn't seem that far off anymore

Assist on the Kane goal tonight was disgusting, he’s the best passer in the league hands down in my opinion

Your opinion matches the NHLPA's

 

[dwonger]

Assist on the Kane goal tonight was disgusting, he’s the best passer in the league hands down in my opinion

He had been for a while now. He is a double threat to pass or shoot.

 

[syz]

Draisaitl the past couple weeks has finally been skating well for the first time since Michael "Call me Mikey" Anderson's slewfoot in the playoffs almost a year ago. Has a similar issue that McDavid has which is that Hyman, Kane, and Yamamoto have 0 finish, but he's making up the production on the PP.

 

[McFlash97]

No doubt he is a top tier offensive player. I don't have him top 3 but not far off.

Thats like saying I know a Airbus a380 is the biggest passenger plane in the world but in my opinion a 747-900 is bigger...

 

[Tobias Kahun]

It's not fair to every other player to just ignore how obviously inflated his totals are by playing with McDavid.

Like if he's a 50/100 point player without McDavid that's still amazing and puts him in the conversation for 2nd best, but it's very debatable with guys like MacKinnon and Kucherov.

Yeah, mackinnon and Kucherov just do it all by themselves, and not on all star teams.

 

[Jerkbait]

Thats like saying I know a Airbus a380 is the biggest passenger plane in the world but in my opinion a 747-900 is bigger...

Its not at all......he isn't top 3 , those are obvious choices embedded. But he could be # 4 #5 or # 6 ...too many variables. Are we talking about last 3 seasons? Carreer ? Purely offensive? 2 way game ???