News Article: Lebreton...UPDATE - Agreement made with NCC.

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PlayersLtd

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Mar 6, 2019
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the pic that was posted said there was as much as 1.2 cubic metric contaminated soil. PlayersLtd math was for 1.5 metric tonnes. the newspaper articles numbers seemed way off by his calculation so I asked. No one was talking about 10 acres. (hey)
The second article is pretty clear that the $170M estimate is for the entire area. I think this puts my numbers further into perspective as they seem reasonable as a proportion of Lebreton as a whole.
 
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Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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the pic that was posted said there was as much as 1.2 cubic metric contaminated soil. PlayersLtd math was for 1.5 metric tonnes. the newspaper articles numbers seemed way off by his calculation so I asked. No one was talking about 10 acres. (hey)
10 acres is the current project, if you aren't talking about 10 acres you might be in the wrong thread, since this thread is all about the 10 acres parcel which the sens would be developing. The estimated cost you cited was for a 50 acres parcel, making it difficult to draw any conclusions from for a 10 acres development..
 

mysens

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Apr 9, 2013
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We may have a situation that the clean up and remediation will exceed the fair market value of the ten acres.
 
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PlayersLtd

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Mar 6, 2019
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We may have a situation that the clean up and remediation will exceed the fair market value of the ten acres.
And therefore the NCC will sell the land at a loss as the federal government has with countless sites subject to their Federal Contaminated Sites Action Plan.
 
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Stylizer1

Teflon Don
Jun 12, 2009
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10 acres is the current project, if you aren't talking about 10 acres you might be in the wrong thread, since this thread is all about the 10 acres parcel which the sens would be developing. The estimated cost you cited was for a 50 acres parcel, making it difficult to draw any conclusions from for a 10 acres development..
We were discussing something different. You made a mistake, it's okay.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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We were discussing something different. You made a mistake, it's okay.
The newspapers were talking about the full cost of remediating the soil of 50 acres, PlayersLdt excluded costs that don't change whether the soil is contaminated or not, since you need to dig a big hole either way for an arena unlike in the original project where there was going to be green space that needed to be remediated, in a hypothetical dig of 1.5 metric tons to make a point, that's why the numbers were significantly different, but also irrelevant to the cost of this project since we aren't remediating 1.2 m cubic meters of soil, not even close.

Even if you assume the entire new lebreton project (all 10 acres) is at the deepest depth of contamination (16m according to the pic) you'd only have roughly half the 1.2 million cubic meters of contaminated soil, ~205m*205m*16m = 672400 cubic meters of contaminated soil, but that won't likely be the case since the pic clearly shows that there is no 10 acre space that is entirely the darkest orange, more on the actual location later.

The point is you're estimates for 10 acres based on an inflation adjusted price of the total 50 acres project make no sense, the sens won't be on the hook for an extra 150 mil in remediation costs,

As for the location, the original ~6 acres plot was on Albert between Preston and city center, pretty much dead center so that people could go to either station, in the light orange area of the picture you posted. Not sure where the extra 4 acres are coming from, but likely attached either west or east along Albert. Either way, it looks like they'll be avoiding the most contaminated areas.
 
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Stylizer1

Teflon Don
Jun 12, 2009
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The newspapers were talking about the full cost of remediating the soil of 50 acres, PlayersLdt excluded costs that don't change whether the soil is contaminated or not, since you need to dig a big hole either way for an arena unlike in the original project where there was going to be green space that needed to be remediated, in a hypothetical dig of 1.5 metric tons to make a point, that's why the numbers were significantly different, but also irrelevant to the cost of this project since we aren't remediating 1.2 m cubic meters of soil, not even close.

Even if you assume the entire new lebreton project (all 10 acres) is at the deepest depth of contamination (16m according to the pic) you'd only have roughly half the 1.2 million cubic meters of contaminated soil, ~205m*205m*16m = 672400 cubic meters of contaminated soil, but that won't likely be the case since the pic clearly shows that there is no 10 acre space that is entirely the darkest orange, more on the actual location later.

The point is you're estimates for 10 acres based on an inflation adjusted price of the total 50 acres project make no sense, the sens won't be on the hook for an extra 150 mil in remediation costs,

As for the location, the original ~6 acres plot was on Albert between Preston and city center, pretty much dead center so that people could go to either station, in the light orange area of the picture you posted. Not sure where the extra 4 acres are coming from, but likely attached either west or east along Albert. Either way, it looks like they'll be avoiding the most contaminated areas.
It's still ok.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
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There is significant cost to do so but this is factored into any development site. They know it costs big money to dig a big hole. Let's unpack it a bit...

Your big costs in soil handling (contaminated or not) are your excavators and your trucking.

The excavators are a sunk cost and won't fluctuate whether the fill is contaminated or not.

The trucking cost will only fluctuate if the contaminated fill disposal site is farther than a clean fill disposal site, the added time is your added cost. But in Ottawa, assuming they are going to Trail Landfill, this is only 25 minutes from Lebreton and therefore not much further than most clean fill sites available.

Let's do some quick math to take a run at trucking costs based on 1.5 million cubic metres (random volume based on 700' long x 700' wide x 50' deep x 1.5 for fill expansion, thats a massive hole and that's a healthy expansion coefficient).

Tri axle dump + tri axle pup (or tri axle end trailer) moves 35 cubic metres per load @ + - $200.00 / hr.
1.5 million / 35 = 43,000 loads
1 load to Trail Landfill, 25 minute drive time, estimated 1.5 hr turnaround
1 load = $300.00 in trucking
43,000 loads = $13,000,000.00

So now let's say they couldn't dump at Trail and they had to go 15 minutes further to dispose of contaminated fill. Their turnaround time goes from 1.5 hrs to 2 hours and the cost of trucking thus becomes $400.00 per load or a total of $17,200,000.00

So in a scenario where travel time is 15 minutes more per direction to your contaminated fill disposal site you are looking at an added cost of $4.2M.

Let's now look at disposal costs. On a big job like this these are always negotiated per load but let's say clean fill is $350.00 per 35 cubic yard load and contaminated fill is double at $700.00. Apply that to our 43,000 loads and the added cost to dispose contaminated fill vs. non is $15,000,000.00.

So the total added cost to decontaminate a massive hole vs digging out clean fill is about $20M by that napkin math. There are costs on top of that of course but your materials handling is the overwhelming majority.


disclaimer- I'm not an expert in the field but I do have experience with excavating and hauling.

Silly question...but is there any value in that contaminated soil? Like, is it worthwhile to decontaminate it (or clean it up a bit) and use it for something? Or is it just tossed into a pit and buried or left forever?
 

sena

Registered User
Jul 3, 2024
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The newspapers were talking about the full cost of remediating the soil of 50 acres, PlayersLdt excluded costs that don't change whether the soil is contaminated or not, since you need to dig a big hole either way for an arena unlike in the original project where there was going to be green space that needed to be remediated, in a hypothetical dig of 1.5 metric tons to make a point, that's why the numbers were significantly different, but also irrelevant to the cost of this project since we aren't remediating 1.2 m cubic meters of soil, not even close.

Even if you assume the entire new lebreton project (all 10 acres) is at the deepest depth of contamination (16m according to the pic) you'd only have roughly half the 1.2 million cubic meters of contaminated soil, ~205m*205m*16m = 672400 cubic meters of contaminated soil, but that won't likely be the case since the pic clearly shows that there is no 10 acre space that is entirely the darkest orange, more on the actual location later.

The point is you're estimates for 10 acres based on an inflation adjusted price of the total 50 acres project make no sense, the sens won't be on the hook for an extra 150 mil in remediation costs,

As for the location, the original ~6 acres plot was on Albert between Preston and city center, pretty much dead center so that people could go to either station, in the light orange area of the picture you posted. Not sure where the extra 4 acres are coming from, but likely attached either west or east along Albert. Either way, it looks like they'll be avoiding the most contaminated areas.
its compact soil so its only 70% of the size it will be when broken up and loose. that is almost 1 million cubic meters of soil.
The cost is huge. the fuel and wages to dig out that much dirt is crazy. what do dump trucks hold 15 cubic meters? That's a lot of trips and hours. Also whatever it takes to fill it back up to grade where you are building is a lot of new fresh soil coming in.
 

PlayersLtd

Registered User
Mar 6, 2019
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Silly question...but is there any value in that contaminated soil? Like, is it worthwhile to decontaminate it (or clean it up a bit) and use it for something? Or is it just tossed into a pit and buried or left forever?
Under normal circumstances they would screen the top soil and stock pile it on site for reuse, depending on volumes and design.

With bedrock they would set up a crusher plant on site and make their own road ballast and aggregate. This is still possible at Lebreton depending on the contamination within the bedrock fissures.

Both are relatively easy and a big money saver.

Clay gets shipped out and doesn't have any use to anyone.

In terms of contaminated soils yes in certain cases it can be reclaimed. Decontamination can also happen in situ. So depending on levels of contamination and remediation techniques it's possible that some of the cut material stays on site and you save on your hauling costs. This would have the added benefit of lowering the carbon footprint of that phase of the project.
 
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Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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So are you; it's "You're" not "Your"! HaHaHa!
Yes, auto complete putting in the wrong homophone completely invalidates all my points and turns his faulty logic and factual inaccuracies into gold. Oh well.
 

Cosmix

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Yes, auto complete putting in the wrong homophone completely invalidates all my points and turns his faulty logic and factual inaccuracies into gold. Oh well.
You have jumped to a wrong conclusion based on no factual evidence; I just said you are wrong in your use of "your" versus "you're"! Nothing more! :)
 
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Stylizer1

Teflon Don
Jun 12, 2009
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Yes, auto complete putting in the wrong homophone completely invalidates all my points and turns his faulty logic and factual inaccuracies into gold. Oh well.
You can't blame proof reading on auto complete.

You have jumped to a wrong conclusion based on no factual evidence; I just said you are wrong in your use of "your" versus "you're"! Nothing more! :)
It's still okay.
 
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Cosmix

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Autocorrect has often mucked up my eloquent prose!

Old age has also been an issue for me.
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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Does anyone think the Senators will play a regular season game, at Lebreton Flats, before the end of this current decade…. Which has 2,282 days left in it?
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Does anyone think the Senators will play a regular season game, at Lebreton Flats, before the end of this current decade…. Which has 2,282 days left in it?
No, never thought they would. Too much work to do. 30/31 season
31/32 worst case.
 
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Byron Bitz

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Apr 6, 2010
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Does anyone think the Senators will play a regular season game, at Lebreton Flats, before the end of this current decade…. Which has 2,282 days left in it?
My hope is they start the 2028-29 season in Lebretton. I think that’s best case scenario if everything goes right.
 

Knave

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
21,784
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Ottawa
It's hard to know at this point. The NCC still has to sell the land and then the Senators organization has to hire or re-hire a design team. And then they need to decide on an order and if it's going to be the arena first.

If I knew they were breaking ground in the spring/summer/fall of 2025 I'd gamble and say yes we'd see a game before 2030.
 

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