Post-Game Talk: Leafs win 3-1!

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

LMFAO BECAUSE THEY STARTED TRYING. IT's not a hard concept to understand, they got a coach they actually wanted to play for. That is literally the only thing. Keefe didn't even implement a new defensive system when first he got here. They literally played the exact same way but just had a better effort.

why could Babcock never get them to try at any point while he was the coach? Seems like something anyone should be able to manage

 

[francis246]

why could Babcock never get them to try at any point while he was the coach? Seems like something anyone should be able to manage

I'm not sure if you ever played a team sport in your life, but did you like every coach you played for? You play better when you are in a situation you like or feel more comfortable in. Look at James Harden for example in real life, first game in Brooklyn all of a sudden he is back to the old James Harden.

THEY. DID. NOT. LIKE. HIM. SO. WHY. WOULD. THEY. CARE. TO. DO. WHAT. HE. ASKED. OF. THEM?

I'm a teacher and a coach with a team ontario program for a sport. So i deal with 16-21 year olds, when they are not in the mood, they ignore me or don't put forth their best effort. Remember the age of the players while Babcock was here. 17,18,19,20

 

[zeke]

Show me one game under Keefe where we relied on the stretch pass 95% of our breakouts like Babcock did.

it was sad to see babcock's strategy devolve into complete Randy Carlyle hockey over his time here, just to spite Dubas.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I'm not sure if you ever played a team sport in your life, but did you like every coach you played for? You play better when you are in a situation you like or feel more comfortable in. Look at James Harden for example in real life, first game in Brooklyn all of a sudden he is back to the old James Harden.

THEY. DID. NOT. LIKE. HIM. SO. WHY. WOULD. THEY. CARE. TO. DO. WHAT. HE. ASKED. OF. THEM?

I'm a teacher and a coach with a team ontario program for a sport. So i deal with 16-21 year olds, when they are not in the mood, they ignore me or don't put forth their best effort. Remember the age of the players while Babcock was here. 17,18,19,20

I find it really weird that you're presenting it as a fact that professional hockey players simply didn't like Babcock and never tried or listened to him, and he was still the coach here for many years. It seems pretty untrue and I don't agree at all

 

[francis246]

I find it really weird that you're presenting it as a fact that professional hockey players simply didn't like Babcock and never tried or listened to him, and he was still the coach here for many years. It seems pretty untrue and I don't agree at all

they we're f***ing teenagers dude and currently are in their early 20's. why the hell do you think Dubas and keefe were still talking about a lack of maturity all off-season. I'm not sure why you think just because you are a professional hockey player, it exempts you from being a normal teenager. Pro athletes aren't super hero's, they have emotions and deal with the same shit every other normal human being does. Sorry to break it to you

 

[willmma]

If the majority thinks they would be any happier now if the leafs had won a couple series against bad teams or if their goalies had stolen a series or two than they are after they lost tight series to elite teams or teams whose goalies stole series for them, then im glad to be in the minority.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that Toronto worships undertalented plucky teams like the early 90s leafs cuz of a couple unlikely playoffs runs, while forgetting that it was the young skilled soft team that they beat in the early rounds that was the team set up for a decade+ of elite dynasty hockey, not those leafs.

I see what you're saying but the damn leafs lost a series to an inferior team last year. WTF. So yes, winning a couple of series will make me happy even if it's to inferior teams.

 

[Martin Skoula]

it was sad to see babcock's strategy devolve into complete Randy Carlyle hockey over his time here, just to spite Dubas.

Carlyle Deluxe: Extra Interference flavor.

The thing I don't understand is his mid-2000s Red Wings played some of the smartest possession hockey I've seen outside the Red Army, clearly he's capable of running a system like that. Obviously we don't have a 50% HHOF lineup like them, but you can't say we didn't have the horses to run something similar at least.

Forcing Gardiner and Barrie to make low IQ stretch passes instead of using their elite skating is always going to confuse me.

 

[francis246]

Carlyle Deluxe: Extra Interference flavor.

The thing I don't understand is his mid-2000s Red Wings played some of the smartest possession hockey I've seen outside the Red Army, clearly he's capable of running a system like that. Obviously we don't have a 50% HHOF lineup like them, but you can't say we didn't have the horses to run something similar at least.

so my question to you, is what was the missing link? my opinion was age difference and also as I've mentioned 100 times already, Babcock's approach was awful. You cannot talk or do things you do with adults to kids. That's what they were when he came and the mind games right off the bat was stupid.

 

[tellermine]

Hi!

Did Mikko Lehtonen really play for 6 minutes?
If so, why? Or is it a stat bug?

 

[zeke]

Carlyle Deluxe: Extra Interference flavor.

The thing I don't understand is his mid-2000s Red Wings played some of the smartest possession hockey I've seen outside the Red Army, clearly he's capable of running a system like that. Obviously we don't have a 50% HHOF lineup like them, but you can't say we didn't have the horses to run something similar at least.

when he first came here all he talked about was possession and keeping the puck. go back and listen to his first interviews after being signed here.

I don't know if he was BSing to get the job or what, but whatever it was, he steadily turned the team right back into the Randy Carlyle leafs, strategy-wise.

 

[Martin Skoula]

so my question to you, is what was the missing link? my opinion was age difference and also as I've mentioned 100 times already, Babcock's approach was awful. You cannot talk or do things you do with adults to kids. That's what they were when he came and they mind games right off the bat was stupid.

Are you saying Babcock told the "kids" to skate the puck in the zone with control, and because they hate him they said "no, we're only going to do stretch pass dump and chase!"

I'm trying to understand your point, I'm willing to agree that they didn't like him and had inconsistent efforts under him. How does that explain the massive gaping flaws in terms of Xs and Os on the breakout? Was 27 year old Gardiner a kid? Barrie? Who prevented them from skating the puck out instead of lobbing icings? Did he tell a center to go out for PK faceoffs against Boston after Hyman tore his ACL, and Hyman hopped over the boards instead to stick it to him?

 

[Papi 4 Hart]

There are plenty of examples of teams who tried harder to win as a F.U. to the coach.

I remember Ryan Kesler saying the Canucks players hated Vignault in the cup run and would try to win to shut him up.

Other players can tune the coach out.

It's impossible to judge the team on this effort as many players had outstanding seasons under Babcock. (Matthews, Marner, Rielly, etc.)

I think Babcock's downfall was not motivating players but not understanding what position to put players in to succeed. It seems Keefe (atleast this year) is much better at sheltering players. Hence why Tavares has looked elite again playing low QOC.

 

[francis246]

Are you saying Babcock told the "kids" to skate the puck in the zone with control, and because they hate him they said "no, we're only going to do stretch pass dump and chase!"

I'm trying to understand your point, I'm willing to agree that they didn't like him and had inconsistent efforts under him. How does that explain the massive gaping flaws in terms of Xs and Os on the breakout? Was 27 year old Gardiner a kid? Barrie? Who prevented them from skating the puck out instead of lobbing icings? Did he tell a center to go out for PK faceoffs against Boston after Hyman tore his ACL, and Hyman hopped over the boards instead to stick it to him?

I do think it was a combination of bad coaching and a general lack of effort from the players. I don't understand the stretch pass and dump and chase thing either. All I've been saying is there was a disconnect between the players and and coaches. I think the biggest thing is Babcock didn't trust these young leafs like he did with his Detroit core.

 

[Alerion]

One of my favourite things about this site is that any thread, no matter how initially positive (comprehensive start to finish stomping of Winnipeg!!) always devolves into a contrived argument by page 20

 

[JayDog17]

they only moved away from it because Matthews threw a fit about wanting to play with Marner.

You want Matthews to re-sign with us at the end of his current contract? Give the kid what he wants to keep him happy or don't bitch when he walks in a few years.

 

[francis246]

You want Matthews to re-sign with us at the end of his current contract? Give the kid what he wants to keep him happy or don't bitch when he walks in a few years.

I want the team to win a cup more than anything. If he leaves simply over not playing with Marner, maybe he's not the type of player you want to build an organization around (although I think matthews will be here for a long time)

 

[MattySnipes]

 

[cupcrazyman]

lmao that pandering. No one on the Jets deserved a star tonight

Was Mickey Redmond picking the 3 Stars ? lol

 

[zeke]

Dom is my soulmate.

 

[zeke]

I do think it was a combination of bad coaching and a general lack of effort from the players. I don't understand the stretch pass and dump and chase thing either. All I've been saying is there was a disconnect between the players and and coaches. I think the biggest thing is Babcock didn't trust these young leafs like he did with his Detroit core.

what's interesting is how much easier it is to give a great effort when you actually believe that the system you are playing gives you a real chance to succeed.

 

[MattySnipes]

Dom is my soulmate.

Apparently Jack Edwards is also a fan. Now if you can win Edwards over you doing something right

 

[Throw More Waffles]

it was sad to see babcock's strategy devolve into complete Randy Carlyle hockey over his time here, just to spite Dubas.

It was pretty strange for management to give mixed messages like that. They get a coach that is literally the epitome of "old school" on a very expensive and long term contract, and then chose a "young, new ideas" gm.

Does Shanahan bear some of the responsibility for the mess he created?

 

[ottomaddox]

I do think it was a combination of bad coaching and a general lack of effort from the players. I don't understand the stretch pass and dump and chase thing either. All I've been saying is there was a disconnect between the players and and coaches. I think the biggest thing is Babcock didn't trust these young leafs like he did with his Detroit core.

Babcock didn't have the players that Keefe does now. That's not on him. You can only do so much with a skilled lite stick checking team.

 

[francis246]

what's interesting is how much easier it is to give a great effort when you actually believe that the system you are playing gives you a real chance to succeed.

that's the point I was making all along sir. No animosity or anything. When players believe in their coach/system they play better. That in itself is subjective to the player, yet there is a correlation. It's a weird thing. Systems is all about player buy in. And that is why coaches get second chances. Just because your system doesn't work for one group doesn't mean it is terrible or won't work for a different group. Same thing with players, they can leave one team and go to a team that they fit into better.

 

[francis246]

Babcock didn't have the players that Keefe does now. That's not on him. You can only do so much with a skilled lite stick checking team.

agreed, a lot of people are mentioning why they are doing better now. A lot of maturing has happened from when they first entered to now. They've also lost a lot which builds character over time. It was unrealistic to expect them to be what they are now at 18 and 19. That may have been Babcock's biggest issue.