Confirmed with Link: Leafs sign Pacioretty and Lorentz - 1 year deals

[HockeyVirus]

Year one of a lot of these, of course, they aren't boat anchors.

I am just pointing out that we are sacrificing a lot of the future for now.

We have no future. We win in the next 4 years or we don't win until the next time we rebuild potentially

Should we hold off all discussion of the team, good or bad until game 20?

No but people are used to us being an offensive team and need time to see the new system and D (and goalies) and how it changes the team before assuming things are the same as always.

They spent the majority of their money up front...

Nylander and Matthews got almost $25 million.

They spent more on Matthews than goaltending and D combined.

Look at where they added players to the group. It was basically all D and goaltending.

 

[Gallagbi]

While I agree, I think the bonus $$ expectations tied to performance would be higher than $300K so I think it’s trade off.

The bonuses are easy to hit, but they are small and deferred to next year cap.

I'm more comfortable paying $2M to a productive player than $1.5M to a guy spotting in for less than 50% of our games.

Maybe there was a higher premium than that, but honestly I'm surprised it cost even this much given he signed a PTO

 

[francis246]

People pay attention to how this team mismanages the cap and needs every single dollar.

edit- Some people pay attention.

But how are they mismanaging the cap here? Dumping Kampf or Jarnkrok for Pennie’s on the dollar just to sign a guy is stupid. They found a way to buy time and not make a desperate hockey trade. If anything this sets the leafs up to make a good hockey deal when the time comes. Liljegren IMO is good as gone, he has the most value and the moment a team needs a RHD he will be available and could fetch a good return.

 

[notbias]

We have no future. We win in the next 4 years or we don't win until the next time we rebuild potentially

I disagree.

No but people are used to us being an offensive team and need time to see the new system and D (and goalies) and how it changes the team before assuming things are the same as always.

We've had good goalies on paper and good D...

Look at where they added players to the group. It was basically all D and goaltending.

They added a new backup goalie and potentially only two D...

I don't see this huge change you do.

They added players where they had players leave, this is not some shocking concept.

 

[seanlinden]

I don't disagree. I would prefer they had just traded one of Kampf or Jarnkrok and fit everyone in that way.

I do find the games played conditions of the bonuses interesting. Patches was rumored at somewhere around 1.1M and took around 300k less, which is half the bonus (600k). I wonder if he doesn't work out if they play him 10 games and then just waive him before 30 games. It seems liked they deferred 300k of his contract until next year and then gave him a 300k bonus for the deferment.

On another note, assuming no one gets a serious injury it looks like one of Kampf, Jarnkrok, or Lil will be traded for the eventual return of Hak and Dewar. I'm curious if that's the GM's choice (maybe waiting for a better trade offer), or if the new coach wants to see a few regular season games with those players.

The opening night roster seems to be set, given the odd number that Pacioretty signed for, conviently putting them at $1 under the salary cap with Jarnkrok, Hakanpaa, Mermis on LTIR and Dewar/Minten on IR.

There's probably a couple of factors in play here as to what the Leafs might do to free up cap space.

1. Assuming somebody else is going to get hurt -- it's a long season, injuries are going to happen. You can make an arguement that it's a good thing for the Leafs to have 15 forwards (Minten obviously will go down once cleared) and 9 defencemen (Mermis presumably on waivers when he is cleared) on their NHL roster.

2. Flexibility - The Leafs can play the first 10 games, see who's playing well, who's maybe not fitting, and keep their options open as to who to trade.

3. Trade value - Players trade value, at the conclusion of camp, tends to be extremely limited. There's a boatload of guys on waivers, which makes it hard to justify giving up important pieces. As the season progresses, guys on other teams will suffer long term injuries. Other guys will fall out of favour. Teams will become more defined buyers and sellers, and there may become an opportunity to truly extract value out of a guy like Liljegren, or Kampf, or Jarnkrok wtih a mid-season trade.

It also might be worth noting, that none of the guys on LTIR are really "difference makers" for the Leafs. They Leafs still have flexibility to bring these guys off LTIR, with some limitations.

Dewar is only on IR -- so while they would have to make the roster space on the 23 man roster, doing so would actually free up a minimum of $775k....maybe more, depending on who they send down.

If Hakanpaa is ready, Dewar to LTIR (which can be retroactive) and Myers on waivers solves that. It's also possible, that they send him on a conditioning stint to prolong his absence.

If Mermis is ready, again, start with a conditioning stint, and then likely on waivers anyways.

Jarnkrok is really the only one that poses a bit of a challenge.... but there are ways around that too... Reaves & Myers get it done.

 

[seanlinden]

But how are they mismanaging the cap here? Dumping Kampf or Jarnkrok for Pennie’s on the dollar just to sign a guy is stupid. They found a way to buy time and not make a desperate hockey trade. If anything this sets the leafs up to make a good hockey deal when the time comes. Liljegren IMO is good as gone, he has the most value and the moment a team needs a RHD he will be available and could fetch a good return.

To be fair, I think it's shortsighted to look at it in that fashion.

The question is -- if you're the Leafs, who would you rather have?

Pacioretty at somewhere between $900k and $1.5m, or Jarnkrok at $2.1m?

Don't get me wrong, I hate the bonus concept of Pacioretty's deal carrying into next year, but if the call was between Pacioretty at $1.5m and Jarnkrok at $2.1m, I think I take Pacioretty. Not because he's a better player, just because the Leafs have Holmberg & McMann who do similar things to Jarnkrok.

On top of that, there would be a presumed return for Jarnkrok, and the flexibility that if Pacioretty is crap, he can be waived for free.

 

[GoonieFace]

Look if you want to improve your team you need to take risks. None of these deals are boat anchors that kill us and we have shown the ability to get out of deals that turn into a problem.

I think people should give the team 20 games before being so critical of it



Leafs spent almost all of their available money on defense and goaltending. I can't recall the last time we prioritized the back end of our roster like that.

Strange for a team that can’t score in the playoffs.

I do like their goaltending, provided Woll stays healthy. Their D should be ok, but not sold yet. Time will tell

 

[Sypher04]

To be fair, I think it's shortsighted to look at it in that fashion.

The question is -- if you're the Leafs, who would you rather have?

Pacioretty at somewhere between $900k and $1.5m, or Jarnkrok at $2.1m?

Don't get me wrong, I hate the bonus concept of Pacioretty's deal carrying into next year, but if the call was between Pacioretty at $1.5m and Jarnkrok at $2.1m, I think I take Pacioretty. Not because he's a better player, just because the Leafs have Holmberg & McMann who do similar things to Jarnkrok.

On top of that, there would be a presumed return for Jarnkrok, and the flexibility that if Pacioretty is crap, he can be waived for free.

If we were presuming reasonably healthy seasons for both players I think Pacioretty is definitely the better player.

Personally, I’ve got nothing against Jarnkrok but there is zero chance I put him on our playoff roster. He’s so utterly vanilla. If he’s not scoring, he’s doing nothing for you 5 on 5. I think especially given the temperament of our stars, we can’t have that.

 

[seanlinden]

If we were presuming reasonably healthy seasons for both players I think Pacioretty is definitely the better player.

Personally, I’ve got nothing against Jarnkrok but there is zero chance I put him on our playoff roster. He’s so utterly vanilla. If he’s not scoring, he’s doing nothing for you 5 on 5. I think especially given the temperament of our stars, we can’t have that.

I think that comes down to "generalist vs. specialist" if that makes sense.

Jarnkrok is the ultimate "does everything well, does nothing spectacular". On a highly balanced team, he likely fits perfectly.

Our team, is anyhing but balanced. You've got the haves, and the have nots. The haves, for the most part play in the open ice. The have nots, relied upon to do the grunt work. Jarnkrok can do more than his fair share of grunt work, but he's not Matthew Knies or Bobby McMann in terms of size & puck retrieval.

 

[Gallagbi]

I think that comes down to "generalist vs. specialist" if that makes sense.

Jarnkrok is the ultimate "does everything well, does nothing spectacular". On a highly balanced team, he likely fits perfectly.

Our team, is anyhing but balanced. You've got the haves, and the have nots. The haves, for the most part play in the open ice. The have nots, relied upon to do the grunt work. Jarnkrok can do more than his fair share of grunt work, but he's not Matthew Knies or Bobby McMann in terms of size & puck retrieval.

Exactly. You get versatility and security with Jarnkrok. You can opportunity with Patches, but honestly he's probably starting the year 4th on our LW depth chart behind Knies, Robertson and McMann.

 

[ULF_55]

I prefer straight, but sometimes on the rocks.

I'm onboard with Lorentz.
If he can play regular season the way he did preseason, big if, he'll be a very good add..

 

[Menzinger]

No issues with either of these deals. Hardly a plan the parade moment but both will likely contribute a greater on ice impact than their caphits

To be fair, I think it's shortsighted to look at it in that fashion.

The question is -- if you're the Leafs, who would you rather have?

Pacioretty at somewhere between $900k and $1.5m, or Jarnkrok at $2.1m?

Don't get me wrong, I hate the bonus concept of Pacioretty's deal carrying into next year, but if the call was between Pacioretty at $1.5m and Jarnkrok at $2.1m, I think I take Pacioretty. Not because he's a better player, just because the Leafs have Holmberg & McMann who do similar things to Jarnkrok.

On top of that, there would be a presumed return for Jarnkrok, and the flexibility that if Pacioretty is crap, he can be waived for free.

Jarnkrok likely has the greater on ice impact in the regular season, I'd give Patches the edge in potentially being able to actually contribute in a post season game.

Jarnkrok gets unfairly criticized given he actually provides positive value,.but at the point I think the newer front office would be better off spending the money on guys who got their vision

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

But how are they mismanaging the cap here? Dumping Kampf or Jarnkrok for Pennie’s on the dollar just to sign a guy is stupid. They found a way to buy time and not make a desperate hockey trade. If anything this sets the leafs up to make a good hockey deal when the time comes. Liljegren IMO is good as gone, he has the most value and the moment a team needs a RHD he will be available and could fetch a good return.

They have mismanaged the cap for years and struggled because of it. The goaltending has been in shambles, among many other things because of their lack of flexibility. They will likely be forced to lose one of those guys for nothing just like Lafferty last year anyways. It's just more of the same from this team. They think Pacioretty is the missing piece now.

 

[Menzinger]

Depends what you’re borrowing for doesn’t it? If it’s the difference between signing an impact player or not, sure. I don’t think anyone else is giving Patch 1.5mil right now with rosters already set, capped out, and players waived, his choices are sign what we give him or sit until someone elsewhere gets injured.

Plus if I’m Robertson I’d be pissed that apparently a injured vet known most for being one of the biggest playoff ghosts in the league is casually going to get offered twice my contract in October.

It's worth noting that the details of the Patches deal were almost certainly agreed to weeks ago. His own agent was basically talking about the pto being a defacto formality when it was first announced. The player likely agreed to postpone the signing to give the team more time to sort out it's contract and cap management details

 

[Antropovsky]

I disagree.



We've had good goalies on paper and good D...



They added a new backup goalie and potentially only two D...

I don't see this huge change you do.

They added players where they had players leave, this is not some shocking concept.

Weve never had good goalies on paper. Hence their contracts. Quite the opposite. On paper our goalies havent been much to look at (ex. Campbell, Samsonov) but they generally overachieved in the season. We got what we paid for in the playoffs though.

 

[Antropovsky]

They have mismanaged the cap for years and struggled because of it. The goaltending has been in shambles, among many other things because of their lack of flexibility. They will likely be forced to lose one of those guys for nothing just like Lafferty last year anyways. It's just more of the same from this team. They think Pacioretty is the missing piece now.

They dont, but Marner wouldnt waive (cant score, can lead, doesnt play physical but paid 11 million) so they have to do what they can with the little money left and one thing management always targets is players with leadership qualities because of the lack of leadership qualities in their core.

 

[Arzak]

They dont, but Marner wouldnt waive (cant score, can lead, doesnt play physical but paid 11 million) so they have to do what they can with the little money left and one thing management always targets is players with leadership qualities because of the lack of leadership qualities in their core.

Vezina winner Ullmark was on the market...

It's funny how Bruins managed to draft a stellar goalie and get another in UFA, while we managed to keep core 4 intact .

 

[Evilhomer]

People pay attention to how this team mismanages the cap and needs every single dollar.

edit- Some people pay attention.

I understand the argument about the Leafs paying 4 forwards (two of whom are wingers) a big chunk of the cap, and I don't dispute that there is merit to that argument. However, the truth is that the Leafs have been one of the better teams in the league at managing the cap. They have never lost anyone of significance because of cap issues, and they always magically find a way to LTIR guys in order to get under the cap. As much as everyone loves to hate on Vegas, the Leafs have proven to be masters at cap circumvention/manipulation.

Vezina winner Ullmark was on the market...

It's funny how Bruins managed to draft a stellar goalie and get another in UFA, while we managed to keep core 4 intact .

I can't wait until people see how Ullmark does in Ottawa this season. He is going to be great for the first 10 games, Ottawa will sign him, and then he will be injured or mediocre for most of the rest of the season.

 

[Antropovsky]

Vezina winner Ullmark was on the market...

It's funny how Bruins managed to draft a stellar goalie and get another in UFA, while we managed to keep core 4 intact .

Whenever I hear that Marner takes too much heat, and we needed to get better goaltending or secondary scoring..

I ask how? With what money? With what mins? What linemates?

The core 4 was playing all the offensive mins and eating all the money. There is no excuse for Marners pathetic stats.

But better keep the Marner chat for the Marner thread.

 

[bax]

Lorentz = solid signing.
Pacioretty = the next Joe Thornton.

This is how I see it too. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Evilhomer]

This is how I see it too. I hope I'm wrong.

I see them both as mostly irrelevant. They are iterations of the same guys that teams in the Leafs' position sign every season.

 

[1specter]

Lorentz = solid signing.
Pacioretty = the next Joe Thornton.

I dunno about that. Jumbo was 41 when he signed with us, and had sharp declines in production in the years before signing with us. Pacioretty has had some very unfortunate injuries, but he was putting up PPG numbers just 2 years ago with Vegas, and in his time there he had 15 goals and 30 pts in 36 playoff games which is quite respectable. Obviously his production with Washington was nothing to write home about, but he came back mid-season which is hard for anyone to do and still produced at a 40 pt clip off an injury that would end many people's careers.

If he is truly healthy, he could end up being pretty useful IMO - it's not like the dude has been washed up for years.

 

[PromisedLand]

Lorentz is fine; Patches I dont know man...

so who are we trading to be cap compliant?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Pacioretty will sell some jerseys. MLSE focusses on that type of stuff.

 

[notbias]

Weve never had good goalies on paper. Hence their contracts. Quite the opposite. On paper our goalies havent been much to look at (ex. Campbell, Samsonov) but they generally overachieved in the season. We got what we paid for in the playoffs though.

So we continue to have no good goalies on paper then.