Confirmed with Link: Leafs sign F Auston Matthews to extension (4 years, $13.25M AAV)

[Stephen]

I agree and think these Leafs are much closer to the Sens teams that those Leafs teams bullied out of the building. but an iteration of those Sens teams made a cup final eventually, and no version of those Leafs ever did. anyway

Interesting comparison and one I’ve thought about. When I watch our Leafs window dressing tough guys it reminds me a bit of Ottawa having Chris Neil, Brian McGrattan on the fringes and then a big step towards Mike Fisher on the lower end of the core. Zdeno Chara was still developing into the monster he would become but they lacked that sinewy past-champion type player who just knew how to handle themselves.

 

[Hellcat]

So you're blaming Marner playing like a scared teenager on Keefe? Wow, the lengths some people will go to to keep their narratives intact is mind boggling!


I seem to remember you making this same comment number of times now. How sure are you that the MTL series was played 5 years ago?

Marner's "Dumb Play" Costly in Maple Leafs Loss [Video] - The Hockey Writers Toronto Maple Leafs Latest News, Analysis & More

Mitch Marner has a history of puck over the glass penalties in the playoffs. The Game 6 call was the most costly for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

thehockeywriters.com

That's not what I said at all, the coach controls the ice time, do you not agree that if a player is playing poorly, you reduce his ice? In your opinion what is the coaches area of responsibility?

 

[pcruz]

What have we learned over the course of 80 pages of discussion regarding Matthews' contract renewal:

1.
Matthews doesn't deserve to be paid the highest salary in the league because he hasn't had any success.

Individual accolades including major trophies don't count as success.

Success is only attributed to winning a Stanley Cup.

2. McDavid deserves to be the highest paid player in the league because he has had success.

Success is attributed to winning Individual trophies and scoring titles.

You can't penalize McDavid for his team not winning a Cup as it's a team accomplishment.

3. Matthews doesn't have the "it" factor in the playoffs. He not only doesn't elevate his play, he becomes a below average player in the playoffs and therefore doesn't deserve to be paid like a top end player.

He has been a major cog in the wheel of failure for this current Leafs team.

The way the team wilted in the elimination was in large part due to Matthews.

If only Matthews had the determination and heart of the Leafs players of the late 20th and early 21st century.....we would have won a cup by now!

4. The Leafs players of the late 90s and early 2000s had a collection of players who had the "it" factor.

They always put in true efforts and laid it all on the line.

That they were ultimately ended by NJ in a game they accrued a total of 6 shots on goal is irrelevant because otherwise, they had actual success.

I mean, they never won, but they never laid an egg in crunch time.

I mean, they had their runs ended with 6 Shots on Goal in an elimination game, but they played hard and always gave it their all. Also, the game was 20 years ago, so we should stop talking about it.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's not what I said at all, the coach controls the ice time, do you not agree that if a player is playing poorly, you reduce his ice? In your opinion what is the coaches area of responsibility?

Reducing ice time depends on several factors. If the season is on the line, I'd guess most coaches would let their best players play through a rough stretch.

For this team to win, we need our 11 million dollar man to play like a star and if he instead plays like crap, that's on him. Easy to say cut his ice time but it's not like his replacement is likely to make a difference anyway.

What have we learned over the course of 80 pages of discussion regarding Matthews' contract renewal:

1.
Matthews doesn't deserve to be paid the highest salary in the league because he hasn't had any success.

Individual accolades including major trophies don't count as success.

Success is only attributed to winning a Stanley Cup.

2. McDavid deserves to be the highest paid player in the league because he has had success.

Success is attributed to winning Individual trophies and scoring titles.

You can't penalize McDavid for his team not winning a Cup as it's a team accomplishment.

3. Matthews doesn't have the "it" factor in the playoffs. He not only doesn't elevate his play, he becomes a below average player in the playoffs and therefore doesn't deserve to be paid like a top end player.

He has been a major cog in the wheel of failure for this current Leafs team.

The way the team wilted in the elimination was in large part due to Matthews.

If only Matthews had the determination and heart of the Leafs players of the late 20th and early 21st century.....we would have won a cup by now!

4. The Leafs players of the late 90s and early 2000s had a collection of players who had the "it" factor.

They always put in true efforts and laid it all on the line.

That they were ultimately ended by NJ in a game they accrued a total of 6 shots on goal is irrelevant because otherwise, they had actual success.

I mean, they never won, but they never laid an egg in crunch time.

I mean, they had their runs ended with 6 Shots on Goal in an elimination game, but they played hard and always gave it their all. Also, the game was 20 years ago, so we should stop talking about it.

If that's what you've learned, there's something wrong with you.

 

[pcruz]

Reducing ice time depends on several factors. If the season is on the line, I'd guess most coaches would let their best players play through a rough stretch.

For this team to win, we need our 11 million dollar man to play like a star and if he instead plays like crap, that's on him. Easy to say cut his ice time but it's not like his replacement is likely to make a difference anyway.


If that's what you've learned, there's something wrong with you.

Sorry, I was trying to follow your logic.

My thoughts have been made crystal clear.

Matthews' contract is fine.
He has been as successful or more than any Leaf, has been more deserving than some peers like Mack and Pasta.

I loved those teams from 20 years ago, but don't see them as perfect, or as more successful than this current group.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sorry, I was trying to follow your logic.

My thoughts have been made crystal clear.

Matthews' contract is fine.
He has been as successful or more than any Leaf, has been more deserving than some peers like Mack and Pasta.

I loved those teams from 20 years ago, but don't see them as perfect, or as more successful than this current group.

Doesn't seem like that's true at all but I'll try to humor you. Let's start with this, you said among other things that

1.
Matthews doesn't deserve to be paid the highest salary in the league because he hasn't had any success.
Individual accolades including major trophies don't count as success.
Success is only attributed to winning a Stanley Cup.


I have never said anything so absurd, can you help me understand how you are "following my logic" when you spew this nonsense?

 

[pcruz]

Doesn't seem like that's true at all but I'll try to humor you. Let's start with this, you said among other things that

1.
Matthews doesn't deserve to be paid the highest salary in the league because he hasn't had any success.
Individual accolades including major trophies don't count as success.
Success is only attributed to winning a Stanley Cup.


I have never said anything so absurd, can you help me understand how you are "following my logic" when you spew this nonsense?

It is absurd.

It is completely absurd.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It is absurd.

It is completely absurd.

Agreed, for you to post nonsense and claim you were "following my logic" is absurd.

 

[Stamkos4life]

What have we learned over the course of 80 pages of discussion regarding Matthews' contract renewal:

1.
Matthews doesn't deserve to be paid the highest salary in the league because he hasn't had any success.

Individual accolades including major trophies don't count as success.

Success is only attributed to winning a Stanley Cup.

2. McDavid deserves to be the highest paid player in the league because he has had success.

Success is attributed to winning Individual trophies and scoring titles.

You can't penalize McDavid for his team not winning a Cup as it's a team accomplishment.

3. Matthews doesn't have the "it" factor in the playoffs. He not only doesn't elevate his play, he becomes a below average player in the playoffs and therefore doesn't deserve to be paid like a top end player.

He has been a major cog in the wheel of failure for this current Leafs team.

The way the team wilted in the elimination was in large part due to Matthews.

If only Matthews had the determination and heart of the Leafs players of the late 20th and early 21st century.....we would have won a cup by now!

4. The Leafs players of the late 90s and early 2000s had a collection of players who had the "it" factor.

They always put in true efforts and laid it all on the line.

That they were ultimately ended by NJ in a game they accrued a total of 6 shots on goal is irrelevant because otherwise, they had actual success.

I mean, they never won, but they never laid an egg in crunch time.

I mean, they had their runs ended with 6 Shots on Goal in an elimination game, but they played hard and always gave it their all. Also, the game was 20 years ago, so we should stop talking about it.

Interesting.

What I've learned is that matthews is worth being the highest paid player in the league despite his injuries. But because of his injuries it's a good thing we didn't sign him for longer because he's going to fall apart.

I've also learned that playoff success is secondary and we should just be happy matthews might be our franchise leading scorer.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Interesting.

What I've learned is that matthews is worth being the highest paid player in the league despite his injuries. But because of his injuries it's a good thing we didn't sign him for longer because he's going to fall apart.

I've also learned that playoff success is secondary and we should just be happy matthews might be our franchise leading scorer.

They also forget that when we speak of Matthews in the playoffs, we don't just mean lack of "team success".

We mean that Matthews career playoff stats are more like a 9 mil player than a 13 mil player.

His career playoff ppg is 72 per 82. (points) and 36 per 82 (goals).

To put that into perspective, Drai is 128 per 82 (points) and 52 per 82 (goals).

It's no longer a small sample size for Matthews. He's mediocre in the playoffs. His stats are closer to a 8-9 mil player.

Oh well. At least one day we might be able to win a Presidents Trophy, right guys?

 

[Racer88]

Sorry, I was trying to follow your logic.

My thoughts have been made crystal clear.

Matthews' contract is fine.
He has been as successful or more than any Leaf, has been more deserving than some peers like Mack and Pasta.

I loved those teams from 20 years ago, but don't see them as perfect, or as more successful than this current group.

Matthews zero goals in round two last year was highest in the league contract worthy.

 

[Hellcat]

Reducing ice time depends on several factors. If the season is on the line, I'd guess most coaches would let their best players play through a rough stretch.

For this team to win, we need our 11 million dollar man to play like a star and if he instead plays like crap, that's on him. Easy to say cut his ice time but it's not like his replacement is likely to make a difference anyway.

Not sure your logic tracks, you reduce his ice time to limit the opportunity he as to make mistakes. Coaches are responsible for the line up, star or no star a player who is shaky like he was in that game should not be getting 1st line minutes, its called managing the game, which is the job of Keefe. Marner playing like hot diarrhea does not excuse Keefe from adjusting to conditions in game, that is what good coaches do, that is not what Keefe did though.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not sure your logic tracks, you reduce his ice time to limit the opportunity he as to make mistakes. Coaches are responsible for the line up, star or no star a player who is shaky like he was in that game should not be getting 1st line minutes, its called managing the game, which is the job of Keefe. Marner playing like hot diarrhea does not excuse Keefe from adjusting to conditions in game, that is what good coaches do, that is not what Keefe did though.

If you think that we would have beaten FLA with some other coach instead of Keefe that's fine. I don't agree and I think Marner playing like a 1 million dollar player (at best) instead of an 11 million dollar player had a far greater impact on that game than anything the coach did or didn't do.

At the end of the day, it's the players that have to go out there and play and when your star player plays arguably the worst game of his career in a must win game, it's an uphill battle no matter how the coach responds.

 

[sunstersun]

I'm fine with this, but Marner and Matthews need to be split up. Marner is making 12 mil. It's time to earn the paychecks by carrying your own line.

No shit your stats are going to suffer a bit, but the team will benefit.

That kind of collective sacrifice for the greater good is lacking in this team and always has.

 

[pcruz]

I'm fine with this, but Marner and Matthews need to be split up. Marner is making 12 mil. It's time to earn the paychecks by carrying your own line.

No shit your stats are going to suffer a bit, but the team will benefit.

That kind of collective sacrifice for the greater good is lacking in this team and always has.

They were split this past season.

Nylander was the great beneficiary of that, by putting up career numbers playing with Auston.


Toronto started the playoffs with Matthews and Marner together and they absolutely dominated Tampa.
Tavares and Nylander (along with Holl), were on the ice for so many goals against that we had to split the lines again.

 

[francis246]

I'm fine with this, but Marner and Matthews need to be split up. Marner is making 12 mil. It's time to earn the paychecks by carrying your own line.

No shit your stats are going to suffer a bit, but the team will benefit.

That kind of collective sacrifice for the greater good is lacking in this team and always has.

I don’t even think his stats will suffer. Marner played some of his best hockey while Matthews was injured to be fair.

 

[Hellcat]

If you think that we would have beaten FLA with some other coach instead of Keefe that's fine. I don't agree and I think Marner playing like a 1 million dollar player (at best) instead of an 11 million dollar player had a far greater impact on that game than anything the coach did or didn't do.

At the end of the day, it's the players that have to go out there and play and when your star player plays arguably the worst game of his career in a must win game, it's an uphill battle no matter how the coach responds.

We already have proof that the right coach can do more with less, Cassidy beat Fla with less talent and their FIFTH string goalie... so yeah a coach matters... Keefe is playing checkers while the opposing coach is playing chess.

 

[notDatsyuk]

They were split this past season.

Nylander was the great beneficiary of that, by putting up career numbers playing with Auston.


Toronto started the playoffs with Matthews and Marner together and they absolutely dominated Tampa.
Tavares and Nylander (along with Holl), were on the ice for so many goals against that we had to split the lines again.

Perhaps more accurately, Nylander put up career numbers away from Tavares.

Marner and Matthews dominated Tampa early, but not as much later in the series, and were absolutely destroyed by Florida.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We already have proof that the right coach can do more with less, Cassidy beat Fla with less talent and their FIFTH string goalie... so yeah a coach matters... Keefe is playing checkers while the opposing coach is playing chess.

Sure, blame the coach, not the players. Agree to disagree, good talk.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Sure, blame the coach, not the players. Agree to disagree, good talk.

You could also blame the GM for not figuring out, either before the draft or before the big contract, that he isn't (at least yet) the right kind of player.

Lots of blame to go around, and it shouldn't be directed at only one.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

They also forget that when we speak of Matthews in the playoffs, we don't just mean lack of "team success".

We mean that Matthews career playoff stats are more like a 9 mil player than a 13 mil player.

His career playoff ppg is 72 per 82. (points) and 36 per 82 (goals).

To put that into perspective, Drai is 128 per 82 (points) and 52 per 82 (goals).

It's no longer a small sample size for Matthews. He's mediocre in the playoffs. His stats are closer to a 8-9 mil player.

Oh well. At least one day we might be able to win a Presidents Trophy, right guys?

There are better examples than Drai. If Matthews had McDavid on his team he'd probably be putting up similar if not better numbers than Drai in the playoffs. It's not just the times they play together, but the attention McDavid gets. I think if anyone takes the time to actually imagine Matthews on the same team as McDavis will come to the same conclusion (though we got a preview in the World Cup or whatever it was called before his rookie season)

 

[Gary Nylund]

You could also blame the GM for not figuring out, either before the draft or before the big contract, that he isn't (at least yet) the right kind of player.

Lots of blame to go around, and it shouldn't be directed at only one.

When you've underachieved to the extent we have, for sure there's plenty of blame to go around.

There are better examples than Drai. If Matthews had McDavid on his team he'd probably be putting up similar if not better numbers than Drai in the playoffs. It's not just the times they play together, but the attention McDavid gets. I think if anyone takes the time to actually imagine Matthews on the same team as McDavis will come to the same conclusion (though we got a preview in the World Cup or whatever it was called before his rookie season)

I'm not sure McDavid takes more attention away from Draisaitl then Marner, Nylander and Tavares together do for Matthews.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We already have proof that the right coach can do more with less, Cassidy beat Fla with less talent and their FIFTH string goalie... so yeah a coach matters... Keefe is playing checkers while the opposing coach is playing chess.

LOL. Nobody said the coach doesn't matter and if you need keep twisting my words around to build your straw man arguments, that says all that needs to be said.

 

[Hellcat]

LOL. Nobody said the coach doesn't matter and if you need keep twisting my words around to build your straw man arguments, that says all that needs to be said.

Why are you using the term strawman in the wrong context? You may want to google the definition of strawman, not sure that you fully grasp that concept. You certainly implied that my premise that the coach controls the ice time was flawed, otherwise why would you reply so many times with your off tangent comments?

Sure, blame the coach, not the players. Agree to disagree, good talk.

..and this is when the lightbulb above Gary's head turned on ... took you long enough...

 

[Gary Nylund]

Why are you using the term strawman in the wrong context? You may want to google the definition of strawman, not sure that you fully grasp that concept. You certainly implied that my premise that the coach controls the ice time was flawed, otherwise why would you reply so many times with your off tangent comments?

..and this is when the lightbulb above Gary's head turned on ... took you long enough...

You're providing a good example of how intellectual dishonesty (or willful obtuseness?) makes intelligent discussion impossible.

I told you many posts ago that we disagree, pretty weird that you're only understanding that now.

I said good talk earlier, I take it back. Have a nice day.