Confirmed with Link: Leafs sign F Auston Matthews to extension (4 years, $13.25M AAV)

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I should have qualified my statement to be 50% on 4 similar forwards. Notice Florida type of 4 players

I knew this was going to be the response haha.

Well, one (more than one, but Bob is the worst) is horrendous in the playoffs if that helps, and the other is a #2D.

So they have a 1C, 1LW, starter/backup depending on the season, and 2D being paid more than our forwards.

Barkov, Tkachuk, Bennett, and Reinhart make like 5 million less than our top forwards. I'd prefer our forwards instead of theirs + 5 million.
 
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It's not hatred
It's not being miserable
It's not being overly negative ... for most
It's reality
Its also not being willfully blind to the short-comings
If people just sit back and never expressed frustration to how something has been run for decades - well good for you
I will happily eat crow if I'm wrong and this team does show some kind of heartbeat in the playoffs. TB was a a trickle only to be erased by the no show against Florida.

Fans don't have to like the teams direction
Fans don't have to like every Leaf player
Too many people here won't even entertain perceived negative views
Bottom line this team is a total failure over decades.
Just show me you will play your heart out in the playoffs before asking for more money
The compete level in the playoffs has been disgusting. So no I can't get behind that
 
I knew this was going to be the response haha.

Well, one (more than one, but Bob is the worst) is horrendous in the playoffs if that helps, and the other is a #2D.

So they have a 1C, 1LW, starter/backup depending on the season, and 2D being paid more than our forwards.

Barkov, Tkachuk, Bennett, and Reinhart make like 5 million less than our top forwards. I'd prefer our forwards instead of theirs + 5 million.
I would prefer Vega’s team but here we are. Lol
 
Are we currently better than Boston? They haven't won a series in the last two years and 1 the year before.

Edmonton lost in the second round last year like us.

They are not much better than we are.

You are collecting data from when our players were early 20's and saying "see, a team led by Bergeron and Marchand in their primes (Bergeron was still playing great) did better than our 22 year olds".
If you want to move the posts and just look at last year:

Regular season Boston had a lot more success, while Edmonton had a bit less.

Playoffs Edmonton won more games and had a better winning %, while Boston won two more games than we did against Florida.

Or you could go back to the simplistic idea that "none of them won (except Boston won the President's) so everyone was equally terrible".

Oh, and I actually wasn't collecting any data - just laughing at some odd takes.
 
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Just show me you will play your heart out in the playoffs before asking for more money
The compete level in the playoffs has been disgusting. So no I can't get behind that

What would show you "compete level" in the playoffs?

Sacrificing the body to take hits, dish out hits, block shots?

I'm trying to figure out what Tucks and Robs did in the playoffs that showed they competed, but the current guys don't.
 
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No team has won with 4 players eating up 50% of the cap, it is insane to say no team can.

Why does anyone even get upset when we lose if you can't win with 50% of the cap going to 4 players?

Florida had 50% of their cap tied up in 4 players (and a cap penalty).

So you can at least make it to the finals it appears.

Bob, Barkov, Tkachuk, Ekblad, Buyouts
10 + 10 + 9.5 + 7.5 + 6.5 = 43.5

Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Rielly
11.6 + 11 + 10.9 + 7.5 = 41

They had "worse" cap allocation than we did and still made it to the finals and lost to a team playing with 10 million more than the cap allows.
There is no cap in the playoffs.
 
There is no cap in the playoffs.

So why do we even care about Matthews' cap hit then?


If you want to move the posts and just look at last year:

Regular season Boston had a lot more success, while Edmonton had a bit less.

Playoffs Edmonton won more games and had a better winning %, while Boston won two more games than we did against Florida.

Or you could go back to the simplistic idea that "none of them won (except Boston won the President's) so everyone was equally terrible".

Oh, and I actually wasn't collecting any data - just laughing at some odd takes.

Not even sure what you are saying here, just a lot of contradictions.
 
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You specifically made a point of calling out less years will impact our ability to win the cup. Jesus dude you dont even know (have a clue) what you posted?

Your myopic singular POV leaves out the fact the last 3 years of an 8 year deal will have Matty well into his 30's. It's a fact big body centers tend to break down and/or skills decline, speed decreases right around that time, it's a huge advantage to the Leafs to NOT have a player at $13.5+ mil who is a shadow of his former self but why consider more than just your singular lane POV when you think you are the smartest person in the room. Clearly you have ALL the answers by considering only one possibility.

Please stop, your just flailing now.



ahh keep your pants on with those comments... :sarcasm:

You think matthews is such a risk to fall apart due to injuries that as the cap increases he won't be worth 13.25 (which is complete nonsense).

But at the same time you dont mind making this injury prone player the highest paid in the league.

The Leafs wanted 8 years. Matthews wanted way less.

You are completely wrong in thinking the Leafs are better off with a 5 year vs an 8 year term.

But at this point you've proven your hockey knowledge to be quite lacking so this is no surprise.
 
So the star players on other teams that get similar raw points as our star players all make significantly less money.
And the reason for this is because our star players have other parts of their game (beside raw points) that make them more valuable. So we're at a competitive disadvantage when it comes to overall cap space and team balance, but that is made up for with all of our star players "extra" value other than just their raw points.
It is true that our players bring valuable things outside of just point production that often get ignored in these discussions, but our players are also better producers than pretty much all of these players you point to. The issue here is that unlike teams and agents, you refuse to look at production beyond just peak raw points, and you attempt to credit individuals for raw points obtained through external factors and not the internal impacts the individual is bringing and being paid for. Not all raw points bring equal comparative advantage to their team, and doing something once is not the same as doing something consistently and over a bigger sample.

There will always be players that take longer to really break out, and provide more surplus value on their 2nd contracts than usual. That's not something you can control. Ours were great from the very start, and provided more surplus value on their ELCs than usual. But beyond that, our players are bringing additional impact consistent with their additional pay compared to many of these players, so no, we're not at a disadvantage in many of those cases. And even in the cases where differences in their respective circumstances and development have led to a comparative cap disadvantage, throwing away your best players that still bring excellent surplus value (even if it's not the absolute bestest in the league) just puts you at a way bigger disadvantage.
Ok. Sure, that could be a legitimate argument. But it would need one thing to make it accurate. Just one tiny little thing. SUCCESS.
Just because a team doesn't have the playoff outcomes you desire, that doesn't mean that every contract on the team is bad. That's such a weird, incorrect argument.
Teams win with bad contracts all the time, and teams lose with good contracts all the time.
Dekes argument seems to be that the leaf star players (and literally NO other star players in the league) are significantly better than their raw numbers indicate
That's not what I said at all. Don't misrepresent my statements. I in fact said the opposite - that Leaf players are far from alone in raw points not accurately capturing their impact. You're just only focused on the Leaf players and comparing them to the very best contracts according to your extremely limited and flawed methodology.
So the obvious question is... why isn't the extra value Dekes is speaking of contributing to team success?
It is contributing to team success. That's why we've consistently been one of the best teams in the league. Unfortunately, a lot more factors into playoff series outcomes, and we haven't had the success we want there yet, but you're attributing that to something you have no evidence of. We've talked extensively about the actual causes of our playoff outcomes, and you simply refuse to accept most of it.
 
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What would show you "compete level" in the playoffs?

Sacrificing the body to take hits, dish out hits, block shots?

I'm trying to figure out what Tucks and Robs did in the playoffs that showed they competed, but the current guys don't.
Wow if you don't notice a difference I don't know what to tell you
 
What would show you "compete level" in the playoffs?
Sacrificing the body to take hits, dish out hits, block shots?
I'm trying to figure out what Tucks and Robs did in the playoffs that showed they competed, but the current guys don't.
It essentially boils down to we lose = no compete, no matter what our players actually do.
Historical players don't suffer as much from this because it's so long ago that the emotion of losing is taken out of it. We also didn't have social media echo chambers to document, exaggerate, and amplify every negative moment and thought, and many of the people criticizing our current players would have grown up with these older players and viewed them through a less critical lens. They're remembered as a rose-coloured version of primarily their vague attributes, as their actual performance and play and specific moments tend to fade into the background. Hockey was also more violent back then, and some people equate violence with compete - not realizing how the whole league has trended for the health and safety of those involved.
 
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No team has won with 4 players eating up 50% of the cap, it is insane to say no team can.

Why does anyone even get upset when we lose if you can't win with 50% of the cap going to 4 players?

Florida had 50% of their cap tied up in 4 players (and a cap penalty).

So you can at least make it to the finals it appears.

Bob, Barkov, Tkachuk, Ekblad, Buyouts
10 + 10 + 9.5 + 7.5 + 6.5 = 43.5

Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Rielly
11.6 + 11 + 10.9 + 7.5 = 41

They had "worse" cap allocation than we did and still made it to the finals and lost to a team playing with 10 million more than the cap allows.

This just proves our core is overpaid once again.

The whole thought process is weird, You could just as well put the fifth player @6.5 for Florida in there...

Even if you couple their core 4 with a cap dump, their core pushed them to SCF, while we are stuck with an aging Islander and goal-challenged winger.

Let's just hope we won't be adding the most expensive LTIR player in history to that list.
 
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Everyone gets really touchy about this, and that's a part of the problem. Such a suggestion seems to amount to all a full blown character assault. This is why many suffer silently with addiction. Without that stigma we could address it as we do any other ongoing injury or ailment, quickly and more effectively.

This is not to suggest Matthews is, without any doubt, dealing with substance abuse issues. But he is human, fallible, and in a position that grants him all access and every excuse one would need to partake. He's the face of the biggest franchise in the NHL, is well regarded by the opposite sex, and hangs out with a celebrity who has a long history of drug abuse issues.

His overall play last year was baffling to me. I tried to think of anything that could be causing a guy who was once one of the strongest players on his skates in the league to end up on his ass constantly. To regularly fumble the puck with no pressure on him. To look as gassed as Phil Kessel after a short shift.

It looked like a concussion, but he hadn't had an injury to his head in ages. Then I'd see him talk in pressers and he looked exhausted, eye bags deeper than I'd ever seen them, pale, and generally unwell. That's when I started to quietly suspect what it might be. Now I've heard from someone who knew him intimately that he does, in fact, have more than a passing fondness for that lifestyle.

I noticed that about his appearance as well, the dark circles and a somewhat pasty look. I'm thinking it's just Canada, it's winter and so on.

Don't know much about Bieber, but I thought I heard that he's cut back on the party down RickJames stuff.
 
If Matthews had his wrist shot last year we wouldn’t be talking about any of this stuff.
Anyway, for me the good news is that he wanted a short term deal.
That means that he expects to be healthy.
Had he thought he had chronic wrist injuries he likely would have looked for a long term deal.
 
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You think matthews is such a risk to fall apart due to injuries that as the cap increases he won't be worth 13.25 (which is complete nonsense).

But at the same time you dont mind making this injury prone player the highest paid in the league.

The Leafs wanted 8 years. Matthews wanted way less.

You are completely wrong in thinking the Leafs are better off with a 5 year vs an 8 year term.

But at this point you've proven your hockey knowledge to be quite lacking so this is no surprise.

Leafs wanted 5 , Matty wanted 3, this has been reported by multiple insiders, stop making up stuff.

So as you say he's injury prone but yet you wanted him to sign a 8 year contract:? Can you understand how shorter contracts are better for teams who have players who are injury prone? Do you understand how you are your own worse enemy in this discussion? It's called risk mitigation big word look it up..

Let me see do I mind signing the winner of the Rocket in 2 of the last 3 years to a discounted team friendly contract, when compared to what he would have got on the UFA market... hell no I do not mind, at the end of his next contract he will be her 12 years, not sure what you are getting your panties in bunch over. The option is we do what you say, we demand 8 years, we alienate him, he chooses to not sign the 4 year, he chooses to go to UFA and then we are bidding against 30 other teams at a much higher AAV. best case if he goes to UFA, we end up signing him to the same amount of years at a higher AAV... bravo genius...

My hockey knowledge is fine, not sure what throwing childish insults toward me accomplishes besides effectively establishing your lack of maturity. Lets get back to debating like adults.
 
also although they didn't win anything either man give me the heart and grit of players like Clark, Tucker, Roberts , Markov etc etc and I'm at least happy if they go down, it was a war
These guys - pathetic performances when it matters most
when you talk about this franchise being a "total failure over decades" does it include the teams these guys played on?
 
when you talk about this franchise being a "total failure over decades" does it include the teams these guys played on?

Schroedinger's success:

These players were simultaneously successful and worthy of admiration, and a failure and part of the decades-long problem.


Depending on how the person is arguing at the time, of course....
 
Schroedinger's success:

These players were simultaneously successful and worthy of admiration, and a failure and part of the decades-long problem.

Depending on how the person is arguing at the time, of course....
Players worthy of admiration playing on teams that are not so good is nothing new.
 

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