Confirmed with Link: Leafs sign F Auston Matthews to extension (4 years, $13.25M AAV)

[notDatsyuk]

All failures, including us. 5 rounds in 5 years is still failing.

Should we strive to be the NYI? 6 rounds in the last 5 years, what great success.

Tampa was left out because he was specifically comparing Pastrnak and McDavid as these wonderful contracts and then saying because of our team's high salaries we've won nothing.

You can find teams failing and succeeding with big contracts, there is no perfect formula, it is why these arguments are so dumb.

I remember the talking point for a while was "No team can ever win with a 10+ million dollar player", can't use that anymore, need to come up with something new now.

Ah, yes - the old faulty logic for trying to excuse a bad team by saying good teams aren't any better just because they aren't the best.

 

[Sypher04]

Tkhachuk took a pretty big step offensively last year and is on an a similar career trajectory to his brother. This entire phenemona of Dubas fans and diminishing other team's star players is honestly hilarious. A "low-end" 1LW, give me a f***ing break.

I don’t really agree with the assessment of Tkachuk but it’s laughable that you think only “Dubas fans” are out diminishing other team’s star players. This is one of the most common elements of fandom you’ll find on sports message boards

I see Tkachuk as similar to Landeskog. Will produce really well with upper tier offensive players, brings a good deal of intangibles. Valuable player, but maybe not in that upper tier individually. Nothing wrong with that if that’s what he is, teams need that player

 

[therealkoho]

8mAAV is too much for an elite two way Dman? He'd be the second best Dman, hey maybe even the best on the Leafs.

Why is Brady Tkachuk overrated?.

I know Will scored 5 more goals and had 4 more pts last year, and I know that Will is a bit smoother on the blades, but that's where his advantage ends. Given a choice I take Brady over Will anyday that ends in a "y."

Will made me a believer last year, he finally erased all doubt I had of his commitment to the game. BT did it his first year, I wasn't sure he was ever going to be an 80 point guy, but now I think 95 is within range as the Senators mature.

I know a couple of ex Senators quite well and they've both said that the kid is the real deal, they both say his skill set and discipline is better than his brothers. I trust their opinions, both as players and as real fans of the game

There is no denying Brady Tkachuks worth as a National leaguer.

 

[Sypher04]

8mAAV is too much for an elite two way Dman?

Is this regarding Sanderson? If so, he’s not an elite two way dman. He may be in time, but he’s not now.

I think there’s a decent chance he grows into the contract, especially with the cap growth expected, but it’s a gamble based on nothing but a solid rookie season

 

[therealkoho]

I don’t really agree with the assessment of Tkachuk but it’s laughable that you think only “Dubas fans” are out diminishing other team’s star players. This is one of the most common elements of fandom you’ll find on sports message boards

I see Tkachuk as similar to Landeskog. Will produce really well with upper tier offensive players, brings a good deal of intangibles. Valuable player, but maybe not in that upper tier individually. Nothing wrong with that if that’s what he is, teams need that player

There was a time when that's how a lot of people and I do mean how a lot of people saw Matthew, as that "Landeskog" type of player, I wasn't one of them, in fact if you remember I was an advocate of moving Nylander for him 1 for 1.

Back then i remember somebody making the quip "koho thinks that because Marner and Tkachuk played together in London that they'll be just as good together with the Leafs!"

And yes I still do, because they would be, but just a pipe dream for now though sadly.

Tkachuk Matthews Marner

Freakin ouch

 

[IPS]

“Dubas fans” are out diminishing other team’s star players. This is one of the most common elements of fandom you’ll find on sports message boards

Then you're not really aware of that poster's history.

 

[therealkoho]

Is this regarding Sanderson? If so, he’s not an elite two way dman. He may be in time, but he’s not now.

I think there’s a decent chance he grows into the contract, especially with the cap growth expected, but it’s a gamble based on nothing but a solid rookie season

Nope it's in regard to Chabot being overpaid, I had quoted somebody but it disappeared

I don’t really agree with the assessment of Tkachuk but it’s laughable that you think only “Dubas fans” are out diminishing other team’s star players. This is one of the most common elements of fandom you’ll find on sports message boards

I see Tkachuk as similar to Landeskog. Will produce really well with upper tier offensive players, brings a good deal of intangibles. Valuable player, but maybe not in that upper tier individually. Nothing wrong with that if that’s what he is, teams need that player

Where the f*** did you get this "dubas fans" horse puckey jebuzz cripes I'm not freaking 12, I clearly said "Leafs fans" jeebuzz man at least read what I wrote, don't assume I meant anything different.

 

[Sypher04]

Then you're not really aware of that poster's history.

Huh? I’m telling you you’re attributing one of the most common things people do in sports related discussions to one specific small group and acting like it’s unique. It’s not.

Nope it's in regard to Chabot being overpaid, I had quoted somebody but it disappeared

Ah, thanks for clarification.
Chabot is not an elite two-way d-man either

Where the f*** did you get this "dubas fans" horse puckey jebuzz cripes I'm not freaking 12, I clearly said "Leafs fans" jeebuzz man at least read what I wrote, don't assume I meant anything different.

Uh.. Koho. The 2nd post you quoted of mine has nothing to do with you. I was responding to IPS and his usage of the term “Dubas fans” which I also think is juvenile. Especially how much it’s thrown around here like people should be ashamed if they liked the guy, faults aside.

 

[notbias]

Tkhachuk took a pretty big step offensively last year and is on an a similar career trajectory to his brother. This entire phenemona of Dubas fans and diminishing other team's star players is honestly hilarious. A "low-end" 1LW, give me a f***ing break.

Maybe mid-tier is more acceptable? He put up PPG beside Stutzle and Batherson/Giroux.

It isn't like he and Stutzle are driving the line and the 3rd person is a passenger like a Matthews/Marner duo.

Also, he is bad defensively. Raw point totals look nice though.

Robertson, Panarin, Tkachuk, Connor, Ovechkin, Kaprizov, Gaudreau, Bratt, Fiala, Buchnevich, Marchand, Laine, Forsberg, and Ehlers are all players I'd take over him at LW.

So yeah, mid-tier LW, low-end 1W, and as a forward, I am assuming he'd be hovering around 50-60.

Those players plus these RW are who I'd take above him at wing though.

Pastrnak, Kucherov, Rantanen, Marner, Nylander, Tuch, Keller, Konecny, Stone, Svechnikov, Meier, Kane, and Caufield.

You can disagree, but I just don't think he is worth the hype.

Great player, but not a superstar.

Also "This entire phenemona of Dubas fans and diminishing other team's star players is honestly hilarious. A "low-end" 1LW, give me a f***ing break."

Literally just said Stutzle was great. I like some of Ottawa's players, but Tkachuk is not as good as others think in my opinion. This board has basically turned into defending every player that isn't a Leaf and trying to bring down the Leafs' players.

Also, a fan of the Leafs, not the GM for the Leafs. I just think he was doing a good job. His tenure was a failure, but I still think he was putting together good teams and wanted him to continue leading the charge.

Ah, yes - the old faulty logic for trying to excuse a bad team by saying good teams aren't any better just because they aren't the best.

Are we currently better than Boston? They haven't won a series in the last two years and 1 the year before.

Edmonton lost in the second round last year like us.

They are not much better than we are.

You are collecting data from when our players were early 20's and saying "see, a team led by Bergeron and Marchand in their primes (Bergeron was still playing great) did better than our 22 year olds".

 

[notbias]

8mAAV is too much for an elite two way Dman? He'd be the second best Dman, hey maybe even the best on the Leafs.

Why is Brady Tkachuk overrated?.

I know Will scored 5 more goals and had 4 more pts last year, and I know that Will is a bit smoother on the blades, but that's where his advantage ends. Given a choice I take Brady over Will anyday that ends in a "y."

Will made me a believer last year, he finally erased all doubt I had of his commitment to the game. BT did it his first year, I wasn't sure he was ever going to be an 80 point guy, but now I think 95 is within range as the Senators mature.

I know a couple of ex Senators quite well and they've both said that the kid is the real deal, they both say his skill set and discipline is better than his brothers. I trust their opinions, both as players and as real fans of the game

There is no denying Brady Tkachuks worth as a National leaguer.

Sanderson isn't elite yet.

Chabot was supposed to be elite too.

 

[therealkoho]

Sanderson isn't elite yet.

Chabot was supposed to be elite too.

The only Dman on the Leafs that can skate with either of them, handle the puck like either of them is Morgan, and they both might be better defensively.

 

[pcruz]

Maybe mid-tier is more acceptable? He put up PPG beside Stutzle and Batherson/Giroux.

It isn't like he and Stutzle are driving the line and the 3rd person is a passenger like a Matthews/Marner duo.

Also, he is bad defensively. Raw point totals look nice though.

Robertson, Panarin, Tkachuk, Connor, Ovechkin, Kaprizov, Gaudreau, Bratt, Fiala, Buchnevich, Marchand, Laine, Forsberg, and Ehlers are all players I'd take over him at LW.

So yeah, mid-tier LW, low-end 1W, and as a forward, I am assuming he'd be hovering around 50-60.

Those players plus these RW are who I'd take above him at wing though.

Pastrnak, Kucherov, Rantanen, Marner, Nylander, Tuch, Keller, Konecny, Stone, Svechnikov, Meier, Kane, and Caufield.

You can disagree, but I just don't think he is worth the hype.

Great player, but not a superstar.

Also "This entire phenemona of Dubas fans and diminishing other team's star players is honestly hilarious. A "low-end" 1LW, give me a f***ing break."

Literally just said Stutzle was great. I like some of Ottawa's players, but Tkachuk is not as good as others think in my opinion. This board has basically turned into defending every player that isn't a Leaf and trying to bring down the Leafs' players.

Also, a fan of the Leafs, not the GM for the Leafs. I just think he was doing a good job. His tenure was a failure, but I still think he was putting together good teams and wanted him to continue leading the charge.



Are we currently better than Boston? They haven't won a series in the last two years and 1 the year before.

Edmonton lost in the second round last year like us.

They are not much better than we are.

You are collecting data from when our players were early 20's and saying "see, a team led by Bergeron and Marchand in their primes (Bergeron was still playing great) did better than our 22 year olds".

McDavid’s Edmonton Oilers have played 1 extra season compared to Matthews' Leafs, and they haven't really had any more success.
Edmonton made the conference finals and got demolished by a team that exploited Draisaitl and McDavid’s tendency to focus entirely on offense, thus making the team extremely vulnerable for 25 to 35 minutes a night.


That team has been no better than Toronto has as far back as the early 2000s when Pronger dragged their asses to a Cup final on his own.

 

[mjd1001]

Sanderson isn't elite yet.

Chabot was supposed to be elite too.

Agreed on Sanderson. He might be 'good' and he may eventually be elite, but he wasn't there last year and he likely won't be there this year. What is elite anyway? top 10? No way not yet.

 

[IPS]

Maybe mid-tier is more acceptable? He put up PPG beside Stutzle and Batherson/Giroux.

It isn't like he and Stutzle are driving the line and the 3rd person is a passenger like a Matthews/Marner duo.

Also, he is bad defensively. Raw point totals look nice though.

Robertson, Panarin, Tkachuk, Connor, Ovechkin, Kaprizov, Gaudreau, Bratt, Fiala, Buchnevich, Marchand, Laine, Forsberg, and Ehlers are all players I'd take over him at LW.

So yeah, mid-tier LW, low-end 1W, and as a forward, I am assuming he'd be hovering around 50-60.

Those players plus these RW are who I'd take above him at wing though.

Pastrnak, Kucherov, Rantanen, Marner, Nylander, Tuch, Keller, Konecny, Stone, Svechnikov, Meier, Kane, and Caufield.

You can disagree, but I just don't think he is worth the hype.

Great player, but not a superstar.

Also "This entire phenemona of Dubas fans and diminishing other team's star players is honestly hilarious. A "low-end" 1LW, give me a f***ing break."

Literally just said Stutzle was great. I like some of Ottawa's players, but Tkachuk is not as good as others think in my opinion. This board has basically turned into defending every player that isn't a Leaf and trying to bring down the Leafs' players.

Also, a fan of the Leafs, not the GM for the Leafs. I just think he was doing a good job. His tenure was a failure, but I still think he was putting together good teams.

Disagree with your take here. Stutzle is obviously the most offensively talented player on the line but that doesn't always tell the whole story. You maximize a player like Stutzle by having a player like Brady on his line.

 

[notbias]

The only Dman on the Leafs that can skate with either of them, handle the puck like either of them is Morgan, and they both might be better defensively.

Are the Leafs forwards THAT much better than the Sens? Why can't they even make the playoffs?

 

[IPS]

Are the Leafs forwards THAT much better than the Sens? Why can't they even make the playoffs?

I am not for one second claiming that Sens forwards are even comparable to Marner/Matthews

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If we accept your POV being the gospel, for Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares contracts to be worth it all the Leaf's need to do is win the Cup?

Huh? This team is 1-8 in playoff series and something like 1-11 in series clinching games.

That's not "mediocre". It's not merely "bad". It's laughably bad. Historically bad.

Dekes argument seems to be that the leaf star players (and literally NO other star players in the league) are significantly better than their raw numbers indicate, so they need to be paid extra for it.

So the obvious question is... why isn't the extra value Dekes is speaking of contributing to team success? Because it's not merely mediocrity in the post season. It's a historical level of lack of success. It's laughing stock of the league territory.

Could it be that Dubas and Dekes and all the like put WAY too much weight into the perceived extra value of our core beyond just raw points?

My argument is that all of that is a bunch of crap. That our players shouldn't have been paid way more money than comparables in raw stats and the extra value Dekes is talking about is just made up. It's all just mental gymnastics to defend a rookie gm that didn't know what he was doing.

The lack of team success seems to indicate I have a less biased take on those contracts than Dekes and his ilk.

 

[IPS]

Dekes argument seems to be that the leaf star players (and literally NO other star players in the league) are significantly better than their raw numbers dictate, so they need to be paid extra for it.

Numbers. Not raw numbers, just numbers. This whole "raw production" BS needs to end, there's goals, assists, and points, nothing else. The opportunity players get to produce bigger numbers is a whole other debate on its own.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Numbers. Not raw numbers, just numbers. This whole "raw production" BS needs to end, there's goals, assists, and points, nothing else. The opportunity players get to produce bigger numbers is a whole other debate on its own.

Can you imagine... can you imagine... if the leafs had historical success (as opposed to historical failure) in the playoffs the past 7 years and I was still here saying our players all have horrible contracts? Could you imagine how silly that would look?

Because that's precisely what Dekes and his ilk are doing in reverse.

 

[Gallagbi]

Can you imagine... can you imagine... if the leafs had historical success (as opposed to historical failure) in the playoffs the past 7 years and I was still here saying our players all have horrible contracts? Could you imagine how silly that would look?

Because that's precisely what Dekes and his ilk are doing in reverse.

You should be able to separate player abilities and team success.

We've seen cup winners overcome awful contracts and players become severely overvalued as a result of team success

 

[IPS]

Huh? This team is 1-8 in playoff series and something like 1-11 in series clinching games.

Has there ever been a comparison to other team's cores done? Leafs have to be the worst in this aspect by a country mile. No amount of "being goalie'd" can excuse this.

Can you imagine... can you imagine... if the leafs had historical success (as opposed to historical failure) in the playoffs the past 7 years and I was still here saying our players all have horrible contracts? Could you imagine how silly that would look?

Because that's precisely what Dekes and his ilk are doing in reverse.

Even if the Leafs got to the 2nd round regularly like the Capitals did back in the day, you'd see a different outlook on things. 1-11 in series clinching games though, like that is at the point where you have to be legitimately concerned about the mental state of this core and locker room. Even with Matthews and co. being as overpaid as they are, they still shouldn't be THAT BAD in elimination games.

 

[Hellcat]

Huh? This team is 1-8 in playoff series and something like 1-11 in series clinching games.

That's not "mediocre". It's not merely "bad". It's laughably bad. Historically bad.

Dekes argument seems to be that the leaf star players (and literally NO other star players in the league) are significantly better than their raw numbers indicate, so they need to be paid extra for it.

So the obvious question is... why isn't the extra value Dekes is speaking of contributing to team success? Because it's not merely mediocrity in the post season. It's a historical level of lack of success. It's laughing stock of the league territory.

Could it be that Dubas and Dekes and all the like put WAY too much weight into the perceived extra value of our core beyond just raw points?

My argument is that all of that is a bunch of crap. That our players shouldn't have been paid way more money than comparables in raw stats and the extra value Dekes is talking about is just made up. It's all just mental gymnastics to defend a rookie gm that didn't know what he was doing.

The lack of team success seems to indicate I have a less biased take on those contracts than Dekes and his ilk.

I'm with you they should be paid fair market value, which I think with 2 years left for Marner, you can argue that he is paid fair market value for his contributions. same with Matty, Nylander is under market value compared to his last two years production.

Where I was going with my questions is, you were saying their playoff record, which is piss poor, supports the argument that the star players are over paid, I was asking , if they win the cup will their contracts become reasonable? Is the dividing line of overpaid/paid appropriately = poor playoffs / win the cup?

 

[Knies iT]

The only Dman on the Leafs that can skate with either of them, handle the puck like either of them is Morgan, and they both might be better defensively.

Chabot is awful defensively and has some of the worst decision-making among heavily relied on D in the league.

The Sanderson contract is a calculated risk that could work out, but no doubt a massive overpay betting on his ceiling.

 

[Hellcat]

In a perfect world, yes, though I would say flat cap and the need for cheap young players makes that difficult to strictly adhere to. To be clear, I’m not advocating for giving opportunity to guys who are not ready. Im saying, if they are in your NHL lineup they need to properly used or you can’t expect to rely on them when the games become win or go home.

Gotchya , makes sense.

 

[Gallagbi]

Has there ever been a comparison to other team's cores done? Leafs have to be the worst in this aspect by a country mile. No amount of "being goalie'd" can excuse this.

So heres my question - what do we do now?