Speculation: Leafs rushed the rebuild

[Daisy Jane]

It absolutely stupidly accelerated the rebuild and inflated contracts for many reasons.

i don't think it accelerated anything. - not in the way you mean (personally) the team was doing very well without JT, and I think JT has some strengths. (I'm not really going get into the whole "JT sucks, No he doesn't argument. etc" he is what he is. and I do think he brings some good strength to this team, he has his struggles and i feel he gets the WBS (whipping boy stick) because people see him as the cause of the teams problems.

but if you remove him - say we don't sign him at all. and we relatively just keep fair to middling people until we do well. I think honestly the team is still talented enough to make the playoffs. and the team itself shows that they are capable of at least forcing game sevens


You could argue (and it would be fair) that signing him skewed the payment but it seems to me that even if you didn't bring JT here, none of these players had any intention of doing bridge deals or taking less money (or doing the Towes/Kane/Keith, Crosby stuff for as much as they were able). I've always said if you have a number in your head, and the player is like no, and I'll sit out if i don't get paid, i would flat out sit them out. Nylander held out. we caved. Mitch was gonna hold out, we caved, and they weren't going to fuss with matthews.

Not one of them (or even as a collective trio) said that "you know what, we'll take less so you can continue to get better players to push us over the edge." as a whole - they haven't collectively stepped it up or committed to doing what it takes in the playoffs. and then management (collectively) bent over and and said it's okay just take what you want from us and we'll make due.

That's not on JT and I don't believe if he wasn't here this changes.

 

[notbias]

Bingo.

If half our cap were taken up by Nikita Kucherov, Cale Makar, Connor McDavid/Leon Draisaitl and Igor Shesterkin then who cares about the damn depth because those guys carry teams both in the RS and the playoffs.

Unfortunately, none of our 4 come anywhere close to doing both. But they didn't leave any meat on the bone with which to assist them on the ice, and management didn't make the right decisions with the cap space they did have.

So here we are. In f***ing purgatory. Anyone that thinks this team is anywhere else is lying to themselves.

$20 million spent on Samsanov, Klingberg, Domi, Bert, Reaves, and Kampf.

They just chose the wrong depth.

 

[francis246]

They didn’t rush anything, it’s just really the core they drafted just don’t work together. Maybe if you kept Kadri and Hyman things would be different. Also 2016 in hindsight it may have been beneficial to trade down.

 

[-DeMo-]

1. Trade high-priced and valuable players for picks.
2. Reduce team payroll as much as possible.
3. Monetize excess cap space by taking on bad contracts in exchange for even more draft picks
4. Finish bottom of standings to acquire lottery picks
5. Draft the highest skilled most promising prospects
6. Build from net out ensuring a diverse prospect pool
7. Effectively develop prospects in the minor leagues.
8. Identify and acquire character players to help younger teammates transition successfully
9. Take a prudent approach when extending players aways keeping the salary cap in mind
10. Stay away from unrestricted free agency until ready to contend

I mean I don't think a team like Chicago meets all these steps either, for example after they picked Patrick Kane in 2008 till they drafted Debricat in 2016 they only drafted 1 player who played in there top 6 / top 4 starting goalie role for Chicago and that was Saad. they drafted guys like Hayes and Danault but those guys never played for Chicago.

also at the time of there first cup win Crawford had only played 8 NHL games, Niemi certainly wasn't a quality starter, as he only had 3 NHL games under his belt going into the season Chicago won there first cup. he was good enough behind a great team. that's certainly doesn't fit the narrative of building from the net out

Chicago also augmented there top 6 in the UFA market by signing Marian Hossa very similar to us signing Tavares.

I also don't believe they took the most skilled players in the draft as Backstrom and Kessel were drafted right behind Toews and I would suspect tho don't completely remember they both had a higher skill set but Toews was the more complete prospect.

how about surrounding there rookie's with vet's who were they? Martin Havlat? who came from perennial playoff bust Ottawa. if you look at the two years prior to Chicago winning there first cup where they went from a basement team to a loss in the conference finals 90% of all the players on the team were drafted and developed by Chicago and the others like Ladd, and Campbell so they had minimal playoff experience.

 

[mydnyte]

The Leafs did not ‘rush’ the rebuild, they over performed.
After drafting Matthews 1st overall, we were not expected to make the playoffs, and were expected To be a lottery team for at least another season or 2.
The players skill was just too good for us to lose enough games, and expedited things naturally.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I mean I don't think a team like Chicago meets all these steps either, for example after they picked Patrick Kane in 2008 till they drafted Debricat in 2016 they only drafted 1 player who played in there top 6 / top 4 starting goalie role for Chicago and that was Saad. they drafted guys like Hayes and Danault but those guys never played for Chicago.

also at the time of there first cup win Crawford had only played 8 NHL games, Niemi certainly wasn't a quality starter, as he only had 3 NHL games under his belt going into the season Chicago won there first cup. he was good enough behind a great team. that's certainly doesn't fit the narrative of building from the net out

Chicago also augmented there top 6 in the UFA market by signing Marian Hossa very similar to us signing Tavares.

I also don't believe they took the most skilled players in the draft as Backstrom and Kessel were drafted right behind Toews and I would suspect tho don't completely remember they both had a higher skill set but Toews was the more complete prospect.

how about surrounding there rookie's with vet's who were they? Martin Havlat? who came from perennial playoff bust Ottawa. if you look at the two years prior to Chicago winning there first cup where they went from a basement team to a loss in the conference finals 90% of all the players on the team were drafted and developed by Chicago and the others like Ladd, and Campbell so they had minimal playoff experience.

Maybe Chicago didn't follow the rebuild exactly right the first time and still won.

There's always an exception to the rule. Guess what? They're rebuilding again right now.

I wouldn't be surprised if they win another cup before the Leafs do too.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Without JT I think honestly the team is still talented enough to make the playoffs.

So you trade players for picks, for 2-3 years, so you don’t make the playoffs. Take on bad contracts. Stuff the chests with D and G prospects.

Spending big money signing UFAs is something you only think about as a final piece. Not the first piece.

Slow rebuilds, from the net out, is where the money is.

 

[4thline]

Saying that JT's signing ended/accellerated the rebuild is objectively wrong, full stop. By the time he was signed we were coming off of back to back divisional playoff berths, the latter of which was a franchise record 105 point season.

If there was a decision to argue about "rushing the rebuild" it was trading a 1st and 2nd for a starting goalie on the same night you draft Matthews.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Shanahan came to the Leafs shortly after we signed Babcock. Shanahan went on a shopping spree and got Lemaire; Lamerelo; Hunter. I was intrigued, and said to myself this is it. FINALLY!!! Then the bookie gods said not so fast. If you want to get this done you have to add this young GM who knows nothing about managing a hockey team and our favorite son JT. Babye Babcock, babye Lemaire, Babye Hunter, babye Lamerelo. And here is Sheldon Keefe to tie your other hand behind your back. There you go Mr. Shanaplan. Go win the cup now. HAHAHA

 

[Twowingcantfly]

I mean I don't think a team like Chicago meets all these steps either, for example after they picked Patrick Kane in 2008 till they drafted Debricat in 2016 they only drafted 1 player who played in there top 6 / top 4 starting goalie role for Chicago and that was Saad. they drafted guys like Hayes and Danault but those guys never played for Chicago.

also at the time of there first cup win Crawford had only played 8 NHL games, Niemi certainly wasn't a quality starter, as he only had 3 NHL games under his belt going into the season Chicago won there first cup. he was good enough behind a great team. that's certainly doesn't fit the narrative of building from the net out

Chicago also augmented there top 6 in the UFA market by signing Marian Hossa very similar to us signing Tavares.

I also don't believe they took the most skilled players in the draft as Backstrom and Kessel were drafted right behind Toews and I would suspect tho don't completely remember they both had a higher skill set but Toews was the more complete prospect.

how about surrounding there rookie's with vet's who were they? Martin Havlat? who came from perennial playoff bust Ottawa. if you look at the two years prior to Chicago winning there first cup where they went from a basement team to a loss in the conference finals 90% of all the players on the team were drafted and developed by Chicago and the others like Ladd, and Campbell so they had minimal playoff experience.

I think the name Bowman had alot to do with Chicago winning the cup. Bowman the senior won the cup with Shanahan in Detroit. Another reason I am happy to have Shanahan here..

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Shanahan came to the Leafs shortly after we signed Babcock. Shanahan went on a shopping spree and got Lemaire; Lamerelo; Hunter. I was intrigued, and said to myself this is it. FINALLY!!! Then the bookie gods said not so fast. If you want to get this done you have to add this young GM who knows nothing about managing a hockey team and our favorite son JT. Babye Babcock, babye Lemaire, Babye Hunter, babye Lamerelo. And here is Sheldon Keefe to tie your other hand behind your back. There you go Mr. Shanaplan. Go win the cup now. HAHAHA

Who's your fact checker? You need to fire them.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Maybe Chicago didn't follow the rebuild exactly right the first time and still won.

There's always an exception to the rule. Guess what? They're rebuilding again right now.

I wouldn't be surprised if they win another cup before the Leafs do too.

They will. People fool themselves on how far away this team is and how soon the window shuts. No picks next year and no 2nd or 4th in 2026 while teams below them are stacked with prospects. By 2026 this could be over.

 

[ruaware41]

i don't think it accelerated anything. - not in the way you mean (personally) the team was doing very well without JT, and I think JT has some strengths. (I'm not really going get into the whole "JT sucks, No he doesn't argument. etc" he is what he is. and I do think he brings some good strength to this team, he has his struggles and i feel he gets the WBS (whipping boy stick) because people see him as the cause of the teams problems.

but if you remove him - say we don't sign him at all. and we relatively just keep fair to middling people until we do well. I think honestly the team is still talented enough to make the playoffs. and the team itself shows that they are capable of at least forcing game sevens


You could argue (and it would be fair) that signing him skewed the payment but it seems to me that even if you didn't bring JT here, none of these players had any intention of doing bridge deals or taking less money (or doing the Towes/Kane/Keith, Crosby stuff for as much as they were able). I've always said if you have a number in your head, and the player is like no, and I'll sit out if i don't get paid, i would flat out sit them out. Nylander held out. we caved. Mitch was gonna hold out, we caved, and they weren't going to fuss with matthews.

Not one of them (or even as a collective trio) said that "you know what, we'll take less so you can continue to get better players to push us over the edge." as a whole - they haven't collectively stepped it up or committed to doing what it takes in the playoffs. and then management (collectively) bent over and and said it's okay just take what you want from us and we'll make due.

That's not on JT and I don't believe if he wasn't here this changes.

At some point you have to ask - did we get 3 for 3 statistical anomalies who were not going to co-operate at all in negotiations compared to league average or did the way we did business affect things. Because other teams have at least 1 contract where a player takes a discount. Contrary to popular opinion Lou was as bad as Dubas. Him pinching pennies with bonuses on Matthews ELC probably made Matthews think he's a moron. I would have less grace towards my employer if they did stupid shit like that too. with better management that had the courage to stick to their original plan before bitching out this team probably makes the semi finals regularly right now.

Trade JVR at the deadline
Trade Bozak
Keep Kadri
Don't sign Tavares
Don't trade 2 2nds for Boyle
Keep prospects.
Sign the big 3 to reasonable deals.

Imagine a top 9 containing Matthews Marner Nylander Kadri Joshua Verhaeghe Knies Domi.

Plus the extra cap space to get a 1d when the rebuild is complete and a good goalie.

 

[hotpaws]

At some point you have to ask - did we get 3 for 3 statistical anomalies who were not going to co-operate at all in negotiations compared to league average or did the way we did business affect things. Because other teams have at least 1 contract where a player takes a discount. Contrary to popular opinion Lou was as bad as Dubas. Him pinching pennies with bonuses on Matthews ELC probably made Matthews think he's a moron. I would have less grace towards my employer if they did stupid shit like that too. with better management that had the courage to stick to their original plan before bitching out this team probably makes the semi finals regularly right now.

Trade JVR at the deadline
Trade Bozak
Keep Kadri
Don't sign Tavares
Don't trade 2 2nds for Boyle
Keep prospects.
Sign the big 3 to reasonable deals.

Imagine a top 9 containing Matthews Marner Nylander Kadri Joshua Verhaeghe Knies Domi.

Plus the extra cap space to get a 1d when the rebuild is complete and a good goalie.

Mathews got all his eligible rookie bonuses , Marner received one set of bonuses but didn't get the 2nd set which i read he would have only have earned in the final year of his elc .

 

[Stephen]

They will. People fool themselves on how far away this team is and how soon the window shuts. No picks next year and no 2nd or 4th in 2026 while teams below them are stacked with prospects. By 2026 this could be over.

Looking back on the wreckage of this era, it seems like the Leafs rocketed out of the basement and into the playoffs very quickly but basically stalled out developmentally from about 2018 onwards and have been at the same level ever since.

All the additions since then were basically treading water to replace the outgoing Bozak, JVR,Gardiner era cast, and the post ELCs ate up all the cap space that could have gone into further upgrading the team. The farm system was exhausted pursuing win now pushes, good assets thrown out the window, and the core didn't mature as expected.

In a lot of ways the window never opened. We were where the New Jersey Devils are now and just went in a spin cycle.

 

[Stephen]

Mathews got all his eligible rookie bonuses , Marner received one set of bonuses but didn't get the 2nd set which i read he would have only have earned in the final year of his elc .

Marner and his camp really earned the wrath of this fanbase talking about those ELC bonuses. For a guy who was going to have a 15-20 year career in this league, you just take your lumps and make your money back over time quietly. How many other players air their dirty laundry and gripes about ELC bonuses in public like that? No one.

 

[hotpaws]

Marner and his camp really earned the wrath of this fanbase talking about those ELC bonuses. For a guy who was going to have a 15-20 year career in this league, you just take your lumps and make your money back over time quietly. How many other players air their dirty laundry and gripes about ELC bonuses in public like that? No one.

them going public about the elc's was just a weird negotiating ploy more so than them being outraged over maybe losing a few bucks , it did work with the Dubasites however who have kept bringing it up as the reason Dubie got bent over

and your right i haven't heard another player say anything about losing bonuses after their elc is up

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I feel like the character guys they brought in over the years were the wrong guys too.

Marleau, Thornton, Spezza, Giordano, and Tavares have won as many Stanley Cup as I have. Nice guys who can teach these kids how to be responsible mega-millionaire hockey players but don't know a damn thing about winning. I'm sick of seeing losers teaching other losers how to lose graciously.

Time to bring in some real cup hounds who hate losing more than I hate my life.

That's the biggest issue in the rebuild. We should have tried to get Justin Williams....Mr.Game 7....instead we got the other side of the equation which were players that never won but were "Hungry"....obviously they weren't that hungry for a cup or they would have won one in their careers before coming here.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Here is the irony of the Leafs wanting their "family friendly team" of lovable losers.

Oilers took Hyman. Oilers picked up both Kane and Perry for nothing. Both are out of favour and the Leafs dressing room and squeaky clean image can't have that, regardless of if they are Gamers or not.

So, Leafs kept the wrong DNA and they could have had a far more playoff driven forward group for cheap. No assets lost.

Oilers are a game away from the Cup Finals. A team that was far behind the Leafs just three seasons ago.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I think the name Bowman had alot to do with Chicago winning the cup. Bowman the senior won the cup with Shanahan in Detroit. Another reason I am happy to have Shanahan here..

That Chicago team's foundation was built by Dale Tallon for the most part. Tallon did the same for FLA and also got turfed (although Zito has done a really good job there) before he could see his vision come to fruition.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

There's going to be some cap casualties, and it's gonna sting.

A couple people were right. Cap casualties >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tavares AINEFC

 

[ruaware41]

Mathews got all his eligible rookie bonuses , Marner received one set of bonuses but didn't get the 2nd set which i read he would have only have earned in the final year of his elc .

correct me if I’m wrong but there was a bit of a scuffle, standoff and back and forth before it was resolved. If I was Matthews I would think Lamo is an imbecile after all that

 

[ruaware41]

Looking back on the wreckage of this era, it seems like the Leafs rocketed out of the basement and into the playoffs very quickly but basically stalled out developmentally from about 2018 onwards and have been at the same level ever since.

All the additions since then were basically treading water to replace the outgoing Bozak, JVR,Gardiner era cast, and the post ELCs ate up all the cap space that could have gone into further upgrading the team. The farm system was exhausted pursuing win now pushes, good assets thrown out the window, and the core didn't mature as expected.

In a lot of ways the window never opened. We were where the New Jersey Devils are now and just went in a spin cycle.

greed, lack of patience, and lack of mental/emotional maturity to see out a plan through basically is what you’re saying in a few words. It frustrated me so much watching it happen

 

[hotpaws]

correct me if I’m wrong but there was a bit of a scuffle, standoff and back and forth before it was resolved. If I was Matthews I would think Lamo is an imbecile after all that

i believe i read where Lou wasn't a fan of bonuses for individual accomplishments but it's not like i remember hearing there was any bad feeling over his elc negotiations but i'm sure Mathews and his people liked dealing with Dumbass much better since he just slid a blank contract over to him to fill out when he had zero leverage as a rfa

 

[hotpaws]

That Chicago team's foundation was built by Dale Tallon for the most part. Tallon did the same for FLA and also got turfed (although Zito has done a really good job there) before he could see his vision come to fruition.

yup the entire team was built by Talon and the people before him , then he got turfed and Bowman jr babysat the core during their cup run including winning the season he took over