Line Combos: Leafs roster [Before] & [After] and work in progress

[Captain Crunch]

Losing a player like that doesn't make winning impossible, just considerably harder. Tampa was an amazing team. We were quite close to winning our series against the Cup finalists without our elite player and captain too.

You were discussing when Kucherov was gone. Kucherov was there in the playoffs.

They do not suggest we are built improperly though. That's just something you've arbitrarily concluded to explain away surface results that you refuse to properly understand the reasons for. Teams of all kinds and make-ups have won cups, and the majority of our team's losses have not even come when the team was "top heavy", as you put it. You also yourself gave an example of a team that won with a ton of cap sitting on the sidelines. How cap is distributed is really quite irrelevant, as long as you have a good team. It's not why we've lost.

Yes, we were quite close, but unfortunately close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. And where these Leafs are concerned, it (as you have said) made it considerably harder, just like last year against Columbus, and the year before that against Boston, and the year before ... Notice what’s the same here is that the Leafs couldn’t get by the first round.
As for Kucherov missing the season, it’s amazing how, if you balance out the cap allotment, teams are more able to overcome that type of diversity. Now if we had lost Tavares for the season and were in Tampa’s division, I wonder if we would have made the playoffs?
It’s so comical how you twist things around to support your weak attempts to back Dubas. And maybe Tampa being in a stronger division might have had something to do with where they finished.
As for my opinion, maybe I need to start using analytics because it’s doing wonders for Dubas.
As for the majority of our losses came without us being top heavy, then maybe it has something to do with who has been here these past 5 playoff losses.
Apparently the way you distribute your cap does matter. It’s the main reason why the Leafs can’t get out of the first round.

 

[Captain Crunch]

298 to 185....... that is the hits thrown in the series in favour of Montreal. This team doesn’t compete to the level confronted with. Lets forgive our top players that carry this team regular season year after year. The rest watch these guys get targeted and do nothing about it. If Dubas knows what is good for a team he better keep cleaning house. If you are yellow,don’t hit,don’t block shots and don’t defend your teammates, maybe you don’t belong in the Nhl and especially not on the Leafs.
Ritchie and Gabriel and fiesty bunting are a start. Montreal fully intended to hit them every turn and targeted our stars with no problem in doing so. Bunch of yellow cowards cost us that series and they need to be removed from the team. They do nothing good staying around.
Maybe Dubas’s trust in the core is just fine. Why would he trust the rest of the do nothings in the lineup is more the question i would like to hear him answer.

And maybe if the core, Marner in particular, had been willing to take a discount in order to make the team more competitive, or if Dubas wasn’t so concerned with being their friend rather than the general manager of the leafs, maybe the other players would be more willing to make those sacrifices. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to do that with what they’ve done.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Honestly, I really think something has got to give with this lineup TBH.

I have a gut feeling that Kerfoot is going to be dealt. Nothing against Kerf, I think he is a good player, I just think we could upgrade our top line LW position, and he would be the money that needs to move out.

To Buffalo:
Kerfoot, Liljegren

To Toronto:
Olofsson

Why does Buffalo do this? Similar to the Mantha Deal in DET. Timeline for Olofsson and Buffalo's rebuild are not aligned. They will have to commit money to him after next year, and by the time Buffalo has any respect, he will be on his back 9. Also, this put's Buffalo more in the mix for Shane Wright, which is far more realistic than them making any playoff push. Especially w/o Eichel in their lineup (Most Likely). Also, they get a good NHL level prospect in Lilly and a serviceable Player in Kerfoot who they could easily deal at the deadline for more assets. I've never been good at trade valuations, and I suspect this is not even close, but at the end of the day someone usually wins the deal out of the gate. I want that to be the Leafs in this case. I recognize the Leafs would likely have to add to the deal, but I really don't know by how much. Olofsson is also a name that aligns with the CJ and Elliote Friedman "Big Name" from a US non playoff team which has yet to come to fruition.

Olofsson - Matthews - Marner
Robertson - Tavares - Nylander
Ritchie - Spezza - Kase
Bunting - Kampf - Micheyev
Simmonds

Reilly - Brodie
Muzz - Holl
Sandin - Dermott
Menell

Mrazek/Campbell

All n all, its really hard to speculate what a opening day roster might look like when I really do believe we don't have all our pieces currently in place.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Yes, we were quite close, but unfortunately close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. And where these Leafs are concerned, it (as you have said) made it considerably harder, just like last year against Columbus, and the year before that against Boston, and the year before ... Notice what’s the same here is that the Leafs couldn’t get by the first round.
It’s so comical how you twist things around to support your weak attempts to back Dubas. And maybe Tampa being in a stronger division might have had something to do with where they finished.
As for my opinion, maybe I need to start using analytics because it’s doing wonders for Dubas.
As for the majority of our losses came without us being top heavy, then maybe it has something to do with who has been here these past 5 playoff losses.
Apparently the way you distribute your cap does matter. It’s the main reason why the Leafs can’t get out of the first round.

Not only can they not get out of the first round, the game 7 loses have been just pitiful. It's like they're resigned to lose and put up minimal fight

 

[Wafflewhipper]

And maybe if the core, Marner in particular, had been willing to take a discount in order to make the team more competitive, or if Dubas wasn’t so concerned with being their friend rather than the general manager of the leafs, maybe the other players would be more willing to make those sacrifices. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to do that with what they’ve done.

You know i really think everyone should forget about the cap for just half an hour and ask if they really like the type of players we’ve been losing with. I can say right quick there are several players i keep cap or no cap and there are several i want nothing to do with cap or no cap.
Kerfoot
Engvall
Simmonds =$8,000,000 approx
Mikheyev
Spezza

Or

Robertson
Abramov
Amirov. =$4,120,000 approx
Anderson
Gogolev

The young players offer more in so many ways for less. I would take our rookie group for the same money personally. Not only that my group of rookies i like better as players also allow me to have the stinkin cap space.

You know what stinks here and it’s fairly obvious. I would like Spezza around in some team capacity but it’s time to freshen up with our prospects getting a fair shake.

 

[Captain Crunch]

You know i really think everyone should forget about the cap for just half an hour and ask if they really like the type of players we’ve been losing with. I can say right quick there are several players i keep cap or no cap and there are several i want nothing to do with cap or no cap.
Kerfoot
Engvall
Simmonds =$8,000,000 approx
Mikheyev
Spezza

Or

Robertson
Abramov
Amirov. =$4,120,000 approx
Anderson
Gogolev

The young players offer more in so many ways for less. I would take our rookie group for the same money personally. Not only that my group of rookies i like better as players also allow me to have the stinkin cap space.

You know what stinks here and it’s fairly obvious. I would like Spezza around in some team capacity but it’s time to freshen up with our prospects getting a fair shake.

I agree, but I think the problem may be with the team in win now mode, management wouldn’t want too many rookies playing. Of course, I could be totally out in left field too.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Not only can they not get out of the first round, the game 7 loses have been just pitiful. It's like they're resigned to lose and put up minimal fight

Yup, agreed.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

This is easily a top 5 roster. Lots of idiots going to look foolish when the wins pile up

 

[ACC1224]

This is easily a top 5 roster. Lots of idiots going to look foolish when the wins pile up

I don't think anyone believes they won't be top 5 in the Division.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

This is easily a top 5 roster. Lots of idiots going to look foolish when the wins pile up

Oh yeah the Stanley Cups are going to pile up too.

 

[zeke]

Excuse me?

Hedman > Rielly
McDonagh > Brodie
Cernak < Muzzin
Sergachev > Holl
Bogosian > Dermott
Rutta vs Sandin or Liljegren...hard to say since we haven't had them up for 82 games.

Even Strength, last 2yrs:

Hedman 18:56, 10gl/37pt pace, 53.2xgf%
Rielly 20:06, 6gl/32pt pace, 53.3xgf%

McDonagh 18:02, 4gl/19pt pace, 54.1xgf%
Brodie 19:08, 3gl/20pt pace, 54.7xgf%

Sergachev 17:42, 5gl/27pt pace, 53.3xgf%
Muzzin 18:40, 6gl/36pt pace, 54.4xgf%

Cernak 16:17, 7gl/22pt pace, 53.3xgf%
Holl 18:21, 3gl/25pt pace, 53.9xgf%

Rutta 14:12, 1gl/16pt pace, 53.2xgf%
Dermott 13:13, 5gl/13pt pace, 55.1xgf%

Bogosian 13:34, 1gl/11pt pace, 51.7xgf%
Sandin 12:53, 2gl/22pt pace, 50.9xgf%

Foote 12:23, 2gl/7pt pace, 50.3xgf%
Liljegren 13:11, 0gl/6pt pace, 44.1xgf%

 

[IPS]

I've avoided their rabbit holes for some time now.

Probably the best thing to do.

 

[ZEBROA]

Nylander- Matthews - Marner
Robertson - Tavares - Bunting
Engvall- Kampf - Mikheyev
Ritchie - Spezza- Kase

 

[deprw]

Tax Calculator | Gavin Group

When talking about salary discounts, it would be nice to calculate with this from perspective of a player. It`s easier to talk players demands down, when you can sign 10 000 000 dollar contract in Tampa and you get more money than signing for 12 0oo ooo dollars in Toronto.

There are some tax evasion plans, but you either shell away chunk of money or move around continent and count days where you can be and when. In lifestyle where moving around at least 8 months a year.

I don`t know how many would leave 1-2 million on a year on the table for sake of fans not bitching about their contracts. Kaprizov can get his money in KHL with even less taxes than in Florida. It has been rumoured being 20-25% tax rate.

It`s pretty clear why Tampa Bay has best cap structure. Bogosian and Perry probably cover their living costs by saved taxes on playing in Florida state instead of Toronto.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Even Strength, last 2yrs:

Hedman 18:56, 10gl/37pt pace, 53.2xgf%
Rielly 20:06, 6gl/32pt pace, 53.3xgf%

McDonagh 18:02, 4gl/19pt pace, 54.1xgf%
Brodie 19:08, 3gl/20pt pace, 54.7xgf%

Sergachev 17:42, 5gl/27pt pace, 53.3xgf%
Muzzin 18:40, 6gl/36pt pace, 54.4xgf%

Cernak 16:17, 7gl/22pt pace, 53.3xgf%
Holl 18:21, 3gl/25pt pace, 53.9xgf%

Rutta 14:12, 1gl/16pt pace, 53.2xgf%
Dermott 13:13, 5gl/13pt pace, 55.1xgf%

Bogosian 13:34, 1gl/11pt pace, 51.7xgf%
Sandin 12:53, 2gl/22pt pace, 50.9xgf%

Foote 12:23, 2gl/7pt pace, 50.3xgf%
Liljegren 13:11, 0gl/6pt pace, 44.1xgf%

Tell me you haven't watched Tampa play without telling me you haven't watched Tampa play.

Don't care about the advanced stats Zeke, you're one of the ones that can't talk hockey without a chart, you just don't know hockey

Enjoy the expect cups for that Dubas will bring in.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not only can they not get out of the first round, the game 7 loses have been just pitiful. It's like they're resigned to lose and put up minimal fight

That's my biggest concern as well. It's one thing to lose, it's another thing to look like a deer caught in the headlights when the stakes are the highest and it's time to earn your pay.

This is easily a top 5 roster. Lots of idiots going to look foolish when the wins pile up

Top 5 at what?

Tell me you haven't watched Tampa play without telling me you haven't watched Tampa play.

Don't care about the advanced stats Zeke, you're one of the ones that can't talk hockey without a chart, you just don't know hockey

Enjoy the expect cups for that Dubas will bring in.

You'll just have to get used to the fact that Zeke is a rare breed who seems to care more about having as much "elite talent" as possible on the team than he cares about the team actually winning in the playoffs. Charts baby, it's all about the charts.

 

[Stonehands1990]

And maybe if the core, Marner in particular, had been willing to take a discount in order to make the team more competitive, or if Dubas wasn’t so concerned with being their friend rather than the general manager of the leafs, maybe the other players would be more willing to make those sacrifices. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to do that with what they’ve done.

How can you ask anyone to take a discount when you make an outsider the 3rd highest paid player in the NHL?

 

[Stonehands1990]

That's my biggest concern as well. It's one thing to lose, it's another thing to look like a deer caught in the headlights when the stakes are the highest and it's time to earn your pay.



Top 5 at what?



You'll just have to get used to the fact that Zeke is a rare breed who seems to care more about having as much "elite talent" as possible on the team than he cares about the team actually winning in the playoffs. Charts baby, it's all about the charts.

Top 5 at bargain bin hunting

 

[ShaneFalco]

This is easily a top 5 roster. Lots of idiots going to look foolish when the wins pile up

Regular season champs

 

[ottomaddox]

Why must Toronto's 4th line be a paper first line?

Is that a new/innovative/winning stategy?

Fans say that "Spezza will dominate other team's 4th lines". Aren't NHL coaches wise to this?

It seems to me that there is still plenty of mystery when it comes to the Leafs 3rd and 4th line.

Many fans have Spezza, Kerfoot, Envall, and Kampf in these places. All 4 possibly playing center. What about semyon der-arguchintsev? Any chance?

Is it better to even out the lines where the 4th is clearly inhabited by those with less talent and have roles to play?

 

[4thline]

Not trying to turn this into another "advanced stats thread" but the whole "if you use charts you don't understand hockey" is one of the laziest, most bullshit attempts to shut down discussion that people don't like because it runs contrary to thei opinions that I've ever seen. I started skating at 2, playing organized hockey at 4, and peaked at sub OHL junior. I lived at the rink growing up, and I can confidently say the the use of data has greatly helped my understanding of hockey, ability to evaluate players, and influenced a tangible evolution in the way the game is played. We're a long ways past the dogmatic "Corc-iples" of 2014-2016.

If you want your HF experience to be the equivalent of shooting the shit at the bar trading uncontested, unverifiable opinions, by all means do so. The fan experience is a diverse one, nothing wrong with that.

But f*** off with trying to talk down to people that want something a little more.

 

[zeke]

Tell me you haven't watched Tampa play without telling me you haven't watched Tampa play.

Don't care about the advanced stats Zeke, you're one of the ones that can't talk hockey without a chart, you just don't know hockey

Enjoy the expect cups for that Dubas will bring in.

Did you watch the leafs play hockey?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes, we were quite close, but unfortunately close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Understanding what happened beyond who won and lost a series, and why, is important, especially when discussing what to do moving forward.

And where these Leafs are concerned, it (as you have said) made it considerably harder, just like last year against Columbus, and the year before that against Boston, and the year before

Just because the same surface outcome happened, it doesn't mean it's for the same reason.

As for Kucherov missing the season, it’s amazing how, if you balance out the cap allotment, teams are more able to overcome that type of diversity.

It's not "cap allotment". It's a cap loophole that let Tampa go over the cap for the whole season and replace him. And they were still worse.

Now if we had lost Tavares for the season and were in Tampa’s division, I wonder if we would have made the playoffs?

Yeah, we probably would, and if we got to spend 11m to replace Tavares for the whole season, like Tampa did, then we definitely would.

It’s so comical how you twist things around to support your weak attempts to back Dubas. And maybe Tampa being in a stronger division might have had something to do with where they finished.

I don't twist anything around. It's quite ironic that you put these two lines back to back. There's zero evidence that Tampa was "in a stronger division", though it is interesting how you attempt to apply unsubstantiated context for Tampa, yet are so unwilling to consider any actual context for Toronto.

As for my opinion, maybe I need to start using analytics because it’s doing wonders for Dubas.

Analytics are used by every team, for the record, including Tampa.

As for the majority of our losses came without us being top heavy, then maybe it has something to do with who has been here these past 5 playoff losses.

Or maybe you should stop throwing random darts at the wall, and actually take the time to properly understand what's happening and why.

Apparently the way you distribute your cap does matter. It’s the main reason why the Leafs can’t get out of the first round.

A popular thing to point a finger at, but as you've seen and even shown yourself, it's not the reason we've lost at all.

 

[Bomber0104]

Tell me you haven't watched Tampa play without telling me you haven't watched Tampa play.

Don't care about the advanced stats Zeke, you're one of the ones that can't talk hockey without a chart, you just don't know hockey

Enjoy the expect cups for that Dubas will bring in.

Great to see there's a growing number of people starting to pay attention, rather than hiding behind blog stats to put a silver lining on all of the Leafs' management failures.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Did you watch the leafs play hockey?

I was only able to watch them in the 1st round for some reason.