Line Combos: Leafs roster [Before] & [After] and work in progress

[deprw]

"Too bad"... and he missed one game... I mean seriously, of all the things to complain about, a couple of fluke injuries... we are at the point of looking for things to complain about, for the enjoyment of complaining.

This board is borderline mad nowadays. Hate towards Dubas skews every discussion towards bashing his acquisitions and same time people praise players like Lee and GM Sakic. Though latter has been good, but it took five years to get to that level. Dubas has basicly just started.

If we win next year there will be some complaining that we did it wrong way and some will just disappear and pop up if we start slow season after that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This board is borderline mad nowadays. Hate towards Dubas skews every discussion towards bashing his acquisitions and same time people praise players like Lee and GM Sakic. Though latter has been good, but it took five years to get to that level. Dubas has basicly just started.

If we win next year there will be some complaining that we did it wrong way and some will just disappear and pop up if we start slow season after that.

If we win what?

 

[deprw]

If we win what?

If we win Cup and to clarify I didn't talk about you. You have something more than that angry bashing and clinging on half truths that some have here.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If we win Cup and to clarify I didn't talk about you. You have something more than that angry bashing and clinging on half truths that some have here.

Just wanted to clarify. You're probably right about what you said, I just think there's the other side of the coin which is that if we win one round, I think some Dubas fans will tout that as being a big achievement, maybe a breakthrough of sorts and I don't think that that would be warranted. I hope they win the cup though of course though man it's hard to see that happening next season.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Here is the thing. I think we are good upfront. Why does the softness of that Defense when Muzzin gets injured make me cringe?

 

[Captain Crunch]

That's not even true. Lee is on a 7m contract. Losing Tavares is a much bigger loss than losing Lee, and as has already been pointed out multiple times, the Leafs didn't get to replace Tavares like the Islanders did with Lee.

Not really, and the Leafs were actually a slightly better defensive team than the Islanders last year anyway.

My bad on Lee’s salary. The site I was on had him at $5.7 million for 2021.
As for replacing Tavares, who replaced him in the 3 games the Leafs won? You just want to keep making excuses for them. At some point you will realize that this group can’t get it done. They fail to show up when it matters the most.
As for the probable “analytics” that you’re using in regards to the Leafs being better defensively, sometimes the eye test is a much better method. And bottom line, as far as which team is actually better defensively, it’s just my opinion that the Islanders are better. However, in saying that, I will admit that the Leafs defence, with the acquisition of Brodie and Bogo, and the steadying influence and strong positional play of Muzzin, the Leafs were better defensively this past season than they have been for a long time. But with the amount of 2 on 1’s that Rielly continues to give up, and Dermott’s brain cramps that he seemingly has on a nightly basis, I would much prefer having the Islander’s defence.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Tavares is so good he actually turned Lee into a 40gl player.

Anyways, over the last 3yrs, 31yr old Lee has averaged a 52pt pace.

And Tavares having Marner on his wing certainly helped him.

 

[deprw]

Just wanted to clarify. You're probably right about what you said, I just think there's the other side of the coin which is that if we win one round, I think some Dubas fans will tout that as being a big achievement, maybe a breakthrough of sorts and I don't think that that would be warranted. I hope they win the cup though of course though man it's hard to see that happening next season.

I think odds are better next season than last season. There is no team like Tampa Bay and Colorado is also weaker. I think it's hard any season but last year it was Tampas Cup to lose.

I don't think winning one series last year was good enough either. From north it was Conference finals or bust. If we now lose to Lightning on second round it depends of that serie. I think it would be lot easier for this team and organization if we could win that one series. After that I think it would be mentally easier, because pressure is cooking up and up every year. 2017 or 2018 no one expected anything, but now our roster should be top5 team in the league but how can you claim that without playoff success. Our team knows that too.

It's understandable that we didn't win first Round 2017 or 2018, but now it's hard to comprehend. Still our roster is great if you compare it to any team between 2004-2016 so we definitely have a chance next year. Though it will be terrible regular season to watch, because who cares. Only playoffs have meaning.

 

[Dekes For Days]

As for replacing Tavares, who replaced him in the 3 games the Leafs won?

Nobody, but the Leafs were still able to win 3 games, despite the significant loss, because they are a good team. Though the actual point was that the Lee situation is not remotely comparable.

At some point you will realize that this group can’t get it done.

They absolutely can. The only question is whether they will. The best you can do is give yourself the best team to have the best chance. There are no guarantees in hockey.

As for the probable “analytics” that you’re using in regards to the Leafs being better defensively, sometimes the eye test is a much better method.

Almost always not, but both the eye test and metrics from basic to advanced say the Leafs were very good defensively this year.

I would much prefer having the Islander’s defence.

The grass usually seems greener on the other side, even when it's not. You have unequal emotional investment and viewing time for those two teams, which heavily impacts perception, especially for something like defense. Though again, the underlying points is Lee is not Tavares, regardless of how defensively you think the Islanders play.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think odds are better next season than last season. There is no team like Tampa Bay and Colorado is also weaker. I think it's hard any season but last year it was Tampas Cup to lose.

I don't think winning one series last year was good enough either. From north it was Conference finals or bust. If we now lose to Lightning on second round it depends of that serie. I think it would be lot easier for this team and organization if we could win that one series. After that I think it would be mentally easier, because pressure is cooking up and up every year. 2017 or 2018 no one expected anything, but now our roster should be top5 team in the league but how can you claim that without playoff success. Our team knows that too.

It's understandable that we didn't win first Round 2017 or 2018, but now it's hard to comprehend. Still our roster is great if you compare it to any team between 2004-2016 so we definitely have a chance next year. Though it will be terrible regular season to watch, because who cares. Only playoffs have meaning.

Not sure if the odds are better this season. There may be "no TB" but there is also no easy path to the final 4 like there was last season.

What I can't figure out is - do we really have a great roster? I mean it looks great on paper but if you keep losing when it counts (and especially when you keep not showing up for elimination games) there comes a point where you say OK, I guess we weren't as good as we thought we were. Not saying we're there yet but if we're not, we're getting awfully close to it. With each failure it's getting harder to believe in Marner (our current poster boy for failure) and in the team as a whole and that's why if I was in charge, I'd be fielding offers for Marner before it's too late.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Nobody, but the Leafs were still able to win 3 games, despite the significant loss, because they are a good team. Though the actual point was that the Lee situation is not remotely comparable.

They absolutely can. The only question is whether they will. The best you can do is give yourself the best team to have the best chance. There are no guarantees in hockey.

Almost always not, but both the eye test and metrics from basic to advanced say the Leafs were very good defensively this year.

The grass usually seems greener on the other side, even when it's not. You have unequal emotional investment and viewing time for those two teams, which heavily impacts perception, especially for something like defense. Though again, the underlying points is Lee is not Tavares, regardless of how defensively you think the Islanders play.

Tavares is better than Lee when it comes to points (which is all we have to base our decision on), but again, playing on a better offensive team (at least in the regular season) helps.
Bottom line with this team, they have gone out in the first round 3 years in a row. Then technically, which I and the NHL agree with, did not make the playoffs last year. And to top it all off, lost in spectacular fashion in the first round this year, even NOT STARTING ON TIME in games 5 and 6. Unbelievable! Management, and fans, will soon be running out of excuses.
Dubas built this team wrong. They are top heavy. Only time will tell whether Dubas is right or wrong, and time is not on his side.

 

[Racer88]

"Too bad"... and he missed one game... I mean seriously, of all the things to complain about, a couple of fluke injuries... we are at the point of looking for things to complain about, for the enjoyment of complaining.

It’s a simple fact that he was injured in the last two year of the post season…….not looking for things to complain about as I actually like the guy

 

[Dekes For Days]

Tavares is better than Lee when it comes to points

Tavares is better than Lee in pretty much every way. It was a bad comparison, for multiple reasons.

Bottom line with this team, they have gone out in the first round 3 years in a row.

Don't let your unwillingness to accept the past, which really doesn't have much relevance to the present team or situation, sabotage your future.

Then technically, which I and the NHL agree with, did not make the playoffs last year.

That is false - the NHL does not agree with you. Toronto made the playoffs last year.

Dubas built this team wrong.

There is no evidence of that.

 

[deprw]

Not sure if the odds are better this season. There may be "no TB" but there is also no easy path to the final 4 like there was last season.

What I can't figure out is - do we really have a great roster? I mean it looks great on paper but if you keep losing when it counts (and especially when you keep not showing up for elimination games) there comes a point where you say OK, I guess we weren't as good as we thought we were. Not saying we're there yet but if we're not, we're getting awfully close to it. With each failure it's getting harder to believe in Marner (our current poster boy for failure) and in the team as a whole and that's why if I was in charge, I'd be fielding offers for Marner before it's too late.

Our division will be tough, but if we think about Cup win the league is more even than last season. We have to go trough Tampa anyway and in that series I think we have better odds. They have lots of fatigue after two Cup wins. I think last season it was easier route to Conference finals, but I care about Cup and I think we have better odds going all the way.

Well I think during regular season we saw that we have great roster. Goaltending has been issue last few years and I think it's better now. Defense was good last year and young guys are year older. I think depth on offense is ok and we have great topline talent on their prime. They have to show up in the playoffs and they should be capable of doing that. They have done it invidually before and they should be talented enoug to figure it out again.

Thing I'm worried about is mental side of things, because I think it's more about that with our first round losses. We'll see.

 

[Fogelhund]

It’s a simple fact that he was injured in the last two year of the post season…….not looking for things to complain about as I actually like the guy

Two times, and suddenly it's a massive trend issue... After playing most of all the regular season games. Seriously, it's as if he chooses to get injured, but just in the playoffs right???

 

[Stonehands1990]

1B? 2A??

Amongst all fulltime Centers, last 2yrs:

Goals: Tavares #11
Points: Tavares #11

last 3yrs, since becoming a Leaf:

Goals: Tavares #5
Points: Points #10

2 years ago he was an elite C by all metrics.

He looks like he’s skating in quick sand the last season. Only expect that to get worse hence my grade

 

[Stonehands1990]

again this is so stupid, how is he being sheltered? Cause Keefe is a dumbass who has an obsession with a shut down third line? tavares can and has gone up against the best teams top lines and did just fine when babcock was here.

He has. When 34 was injured he filled in admirably

But fully healthy Tavares is playing sheltered minutes, 18 minutes a game for 11 million dollars. Agree or disagree?

 

[zeke]

2 years ago he was an elite C by all metrics.

He looks like he’s skating in quick sand the last season. Only expect that to get worse hence my grade

This year, full time centers:

Goals: Tavares #12
Points: Tavares #11

 

[Gary Nylund]

Our division will be tough, but if we think about Cup win the league is more even than last season. We have to go trough Tampa anyway and in that series I think we have better odds. They have lots of fatigue after two Cup wins. I think last season it was easier route to Conference finals, but I care about Cup and I think we have better odds going all the way.

Well I think during regular season we saw that we have great roster. Goaltending has been issue last few years and I think it's better now. Defense was good last year and young guys are year older. I think depth on offense is ok and we have great topline talent on their prime. They have to show up in the playoffs and they should be capable of doing that. They have done it invidually before and they should be talented enoug to figure it out again.

Thing I'm worried about is mental side of things, because I think it's more about that with our first round losses. We'll see.

TBH it's hard for me to discuss going all the way when we've never even won one round. Same goes for showing up in the playoffs, every team should be capable of doing that but until we do, I'm not taking it for granted that we will. Outscored 18-6 in the last four series deciding games, 11-2 in the last three, that's tough to ignore. And as far as great roster, we've never finished top 5 so not sure if great is the right word. So far we've been good but less than great in the regular season and mediocre in the playoffs so yeah, it's hard for me to talk about going all the way.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Tavares is better than Lee in pretty much every way. It was a bad comparison, for multiple reasons.

Don't let your unwillingness to accept the past, which really doesn't have much relevance to the present team or situation, sabotage your future.

That is false - the NHL does not agree with you. Toronto made the playoffs last year.

There is no evidence of that.

Maybe Lee wasn’t the best choice, although we all know there are other intangibles involved besides points. On another note, it’s funny how Tampa won last year with Stamkos not playing, except for a few minutes in the deciding game.
Flaming out in the playoffs like they have 4 of the past 5 years, this year being an epic failure, pretty much says it all.
And you continually making excuses for them, and Dubas, is sad.
As far as relevance, until they quit choking, it has been the same old same old, too much spent on 4 forwards (who have failed miserably so far in the playoffs) and not enough cap room to properly build a true Cup contending team. So we all need to keep our fingers crossed that nickel and diming the bottom six will help the chokers get over the hump.

 

[Stonehands1990]

This year, full time centers:

Goals: Tavares #12
Points: Tavares #11

Well then…it appears I’ve grossly misjudged this lol

 

[Dekes For Days]

not enough cap room to properly build a true Cup contending team.

Except that's not true.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Except that's not true.

Only one way to find out. How much time will he need?
Did you forget to comment on Tampa winning the Cup last year without their captain???

 

[Maple Leaf]

Except that's not true.

They just need to trade Tavares before he becomes useless and they are back on track

 

[zeke]

Well then…it appears I’ve grossly misjudged this lol

I even got it wrong - Tavares was 10th not 11th in points.