Line Combos: Leafs roster [Before] & [After] and work in progress

[Stephen]

What was worse missing the playoffs last year or blowing it this year? Tough one to answer.

For a few which year was the most ‘ Unluckiest’?

It always frustrates me whenever I see "luck" cited as a factor in a playoff outcome, as if we're watching a simulation unfold on Eastside Hockey Manager or EA Sports.

The reality is whenever these "less skilled" teams take down "young elite talent" it always follows the same predictable tactics of disruption, intimidation, trading skill advantages for work rate and experience to even the odds.

 

[Racer88]

What was worse missing the playoffs last year or blowing it this year? Tough one to answer.

For a few which year was the most ‘ Unluckiest’?

Missing the playoffs the year before was tough but this years collapse takes the prize

 

[Mess]

It always frustrates me whenever I see "luck" cited as a factor in a playoff outcome, as if we're watching a simulation unfold on Eastside Hockey Manager or EA Sports.

The reality is whenever these "less skilled" teams take down "young elite talent" it always follows the same predictable tactics of disruption, intimidation, trading skill advantages for work rate and experience to even the odds.

or aka Will bests Skill.

 

[Captain Crunch]

The Leafs have made the playoffs for 5 straight years, but we have not had the same team for 5 straight years, and for the majority of those losses, we weren't even "top heavy".

Not sure why. They have no relevance to the first paragraph.

But they don't. We didn't lose those series because we were too "top heavy".

We are improved, but the fact that we're different is really the key point.

Losing a series 4-3, while outplaying and outscoring that team despite missing a significant core piece for the whole series is barely losing to a team.

Because in your first paragraph you were making excuses for them. Yes, they lost Tavares but then won 3 games in a row before choking yet again. And the Islanders lost their captain, Anders Lee, before the playoffs even started, yet went to the semifinals. And they are a very good team who lost a key player, yet managed to win 2 rounds and take the Stanley Cup champs to a seventh game. Now do you see the relevance? If you’re looking through your blue and white glasses, you won’t, but if you want to be honest to yourself, you will.
And that’s exactly why we lost, because we’re too top heavy so there’s not enough cap room to properly address our bottom six. Instead we have to hope and pray that we’ll catch lightning in a bottle from them, and our so-called “core” players won’t choke when the chips are down.

 

[jaric1862]

The defence needs some work. Dermott is useless. Doesn't penalty kill, doesn't play on the powerplay, can't play against top competition. He's also small and not particularly physical. What's the point of having this guy on the team?

 

[Maple Leaf]

The defence needs some work. Dermott is useless. Doesn't penalty kill, doesn't play on the powerplay, can't play against top competition. He's also small and not particularly physical. What's the point of having this guy on the team?

To protec kerfoot because Dubas got fleeced by Sakic

 

[Legion34]

To protec kerfoot because Dubas got fleeced by Sakic

kadri has been suspended 3 of his last 4 playoffs.

the one he actually played all the games he was directly responsible for the tying and winning goal for Dallas in game 7

 

[Fogelhund]

The defence needs some work. Dermott is useless. Doesn't penalty kill, doesn't play on the powerplay, can't play against top competition. He's also small and not particularly physical. What's the point of having this guy on the team?

Note... Dermott does PK, and he's pretty good at it... he just wasn't used in that capacity last year.

He's a decent third pairing guy, who has shown signs at times, at taking a step forward. He was excellent the year before, when both Reilly and Muzzin went down. 6' 205 lbs isn't particularly small.

The point is, he's a decent third pairing guy, on a reasonable contract. This is probably the season, where we see if he can take that step forward, as many expect.

 

[Dekes For Days]

And the Islanders lost their captain, Anders Lee, before the playoffs even started

Losing an Anders Lee is not remotely close to the same thing as losing a Tavares. Even Muzzin was a bigger loss than that. That also happened not just before the playoffs, but before the trade deadline, and the Islanders used that cap space to replace him.

And that’s exactly why we lost, because we’re too top heavy so there’s not enough cap room to properly address our bottom six.

But that's not why we lost, and we have addressed our bottom six. If there's anywhere on the team that is actually having money taken out of it because of the contracts within the flat cap, it's not the bottom six, it's the two top-six LW positions, but that's made up for by the players with the big contracts carrying those lines.

 

[IPS]

kadri has been suspended 3 of his last 4 playoffs.

the one he actually played all the games he was directly responsible for the tying and winning goal for Dallas in game 7

He also had 9 goals and 18 points in 15 games. He had a great postseason run despite his mistake in game 7.

 

[meefer]

I mean this is the biggest thing. Thankfully we have some coming up soon, but the last couple years were made especially hard by our drafting sucking during the Lou era. ELC players are one of the best sources of value exceeding cap hit.

This cannot be said enough. But, it's not during 'just' the Lou era. Since 2009 we've had but 9/10 drafted players suit up for the Leafs who've made a tangible contribution to the team. And, I'm including Gauthier and Engvall. Brown I miss. If we'd been able to draft 2 players to competently fill in on a 3rd line and 1 defenseman to bolster a 2nd or 3rd pairing, we'd have been approaching 16/7. 17/8, and 18/9 much differently and with a more controlled cap situation. Our lack of drafting success has been a disaster for the team.

 

[Lightsol]

Losing an Anders Lee is not remotely close to the same thing as losing a Tavares.

Not to mention, what's being left out of THAT discussion is that Lee went on injured reserve before the trade deadline, which is how the Islanders were able to afford to add Palmieri and Zajac. If Tavares dropped before the trade deadline, you don't think the Leafs would have went for something a bit more substantial than just Foligno at the deadline?

 

[Stonehands1990]

He also had 9 goals and 18 points in 15 games. He had a great postseason run despite his mistake in game 7.

He’s the exact type of player you need for playoff hockey. I doubt he gets suspended either time against Boston if the team had an actual backbone besides him. His last suspension was a fluke he missed the players shoulder by inches and connected with the head

Sakic traded for him. Sakic is a top 3 GM in the league. People on here are not smarter than Sakic

Furthermore would Washington ever trade Wilson? Would Boston ever trade Marchand? They both get suspended

 

[hotpaws]

Not to mention, what's being left out of THAT discussion is that Lee went on injured reserve before the trade deadline, which is how the Islanders were able to afford to add Palmieri and Zajac. If Tavares dropped before the trade deadline, you don't think the Leafs would have went for something a bit more substantial than just Foligno at the deadline?

Andersen went out before the trade deadline which led to Dubie paying through his ass for Foligno .

also i have no idea how you can remember what happens on the Islanders but can't remember what the Leafs did , strange

 

[Racer88]

Losing an Anders Lee is not remotely close to the same thing as losing a Tavares. Even Muzzin was a bigger loss than that. That also happened not just before the playoffs, but before the trade deadline, and the Islanders used that cap space to replace him.

But that's not why we lost, and we have addressed our bottom six. If there's anywhere on the team that is actually having money taken out of it because of the contracts within the flat cap, it's not the bottom six, it's the two top-six LW positions, but that's made up for by the players with the big contracts carrying those lines.

What about the fact that the Leafs won 3 in a row after Tavares went down the choked away the next 3………..did they just suddenly realize that he was missing.
I don’t think he was as big a loss as you are saying
We lost because Matthew and Marner produced basically nothing when we need them to rise to the occasion.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Because in your first paragraph you were making excuses for them. Yes, they lost Tavares but then won 3 games in a row before choking yet again. And the Islanders lost their captain, Anders Lee, before the playoffs even started, yet went to the semifinals. And they are a very good team who lost a key player, yet managed to win 2 rounds and take the Stanley Cup champs to a seventh game. Now do you see the relevance? If you’re looking through your blue and white glasses, you won’t, but if you want to be honest to yourself, you will.
And that’s exactly why we lost, because we’re too top heavy so there’s not enough cap room to properly address our bottom six. Instead we have to hope and pray that we’ll catch lightning in a bottle from them, and our so-called “core” players won’t choke when the chips are down.

Hard not to be impressed by NYI. One game away from the final and if they get there, I think they probably win the cup. Very similar to what happened to us in 93. People criticize Lou saying their future ain't that bright cause of the moves he made but damn, they were just one win away from nobody saying a bad word about Lou like ever, and their future isn't necessarily as bad as some are predicting. Dubas traded away a bunch of futures as well and we have nothing to show for it. IMHO coming that close justifies every move Lou ever made, yeah signing Marleau for that 3rd year was dumb but still, had he stayed here who knows what might have happened. I do have to believe that our stars are signed for less freeing up badly needed cap space to plug holes elsewhere but I digress ...

 

[mydnyte]

He also had 9 goals and 18 points in 15 games. He had a great postseason run despite his mistake in game 7.

...and Gally had a great game except for that pass in OT?

 

[mydnyte]

He’s the exact type of player you need for playoff hockey. I doubt he gets suspended either time against Boston if the team had an actual backbone besides him. His last suspension was a fluke he missed the players shoulder by inches and connected with the head

Sakic traded for him. Sakic is a top 3 GM in the league. People on here are not smarter than Sakic

Furthermore would Washington ever trade Wilson? Would Boston ever trade Marchand? They both get suspended

Sakic was named GM in 2014 when his team finished 1st in the division, and had 112 pts, they lost in RD 1
then missed the playoffs 3 seasons in a row under Sakic, then lost in the 1st round, and the 2rd round 3 times in a row.
Imagine if Dubas went from a 100+ pts team to missing the playoffs 3 years in a row.

Sakic inherited a very good team, and managed to bottom them out, and that netted them Rantanen and Makar ...this is after having pick #2 overall in 2011, and pick #1 in 2013 while having Sakic as their Executive Advisor/Alternate Governor, so, he had input the entire time they were sucking, and that now transforms him into a top 3 GM because the team is finally playing good.
1st round picks since Sakic was hired

2, 0, 1, 23, 10, 10, 4, 16, 4, 25, 28 (and they had #3 2 years before also)
Leafs 1st round picks in the same time period
22, 5, 21, 8, 4, 1, 17, 29, 0, 15, 0
Buffalo 1st round picks in the same time period
16, 12, 8, 2, 1, 8, 8, 1, 7, 8, 1
Edmonton 1st round picks in the same time period
1, 1, 7, 3, 1, 4, 22, 10, 8, 14, 22 (and in 2010 they also had pick #1 Hall)
draw your own conclusions.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What about the fact that the Leafs won 3 in a row after Tavares went down

What about it? Which specific games we won or lost doesn't really make a difference.

 

[francis246]

his regression has come from people watching him play and not making endless excuses for him

he had a career 1st season with us due to Mitch carrying him and since MM went to AM's line it's been one excuses after another for JT's meh play

-give birth to his first child , new father something something
-broke his finger
-gave birth to his second child , young father etc
-his line mates let him down
-entire team let him down
-coach doesn't use him properly
-bad luck for the last 2 yrs

scorings up league wide , JT's scorings down but he isn't regressing it's just (pick an excuse)

the last two seasons, they did a stat that showed JT would still be the leading scorer on more than half of the NHL teams. A lot of leaf fans like you have unrealistic expectations of leafs players year in and year out. Anyone who's played hockey knows that if you hurt your hand it does effect your shooting. Why is that excuse valid for Auston but not for JT?

100% Keefe has f***ed with JT's production, JT is one of the best power play scorers in the NHL and he was moved to the second unit that gets 20 seconds each power play. That would affect his production. He also deliberately told JT to stop focusing on offensive and worry more about the defensive side of the puck. So yes coaching has played a role in his minutes and numbers and yet still he is still a top 30 scorer in the league.

 

[francis246]

He basically has to be sheltered and carried by Nylander at this point. He’s a 1B/2A centreman. We’re getting hosed on that 11.0 AAV
Kadri was ripping 30 goals and playing McDavid for 4.5

again this is so stupid, how is he being sheltered? Cause Keefe is a dumbass who has an obsession with a shut down third line? tavares can and has gone up against the best teams top lines and did just fine when babcock was here.

 

[Mess]

Some Leaf fans believe the Leafs lost their playoff series because they lost Tavares and didn't have the depth to overcome that injury. So what if the Leafs lost one of the big 4 for 20+ game stretch of the regular season like say JT what would the team look like on paper.

Ritchie - Matthews - Marner
Bunting - Kerfoot - Nylander
Robertson -Kämpf - Mikheyev
Simmonds - Engvall - Spezza

Muzzin has a tendency to miss games due to his style of play so what if Jake or Brodie missed time what would the defense look like.

Rielly - Brodie
Dermott - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren
or
Rielly - Holl
Muzzin - Dermott
Sandin - Liljegren

How would this roster hold up for contention for a playoff spot it what is expected a highly contested and competitive Atlantic Div?

 

[ottomaddox]

It always frustrates me whenever I see "luck" cited as a factor in a playoff outcome, as if we're watching a simulation unfold on Eastside Hockey Manager or EA Sports.

The reality is whenever these "less skilled" teams take down "young elite talent" it always follows the same predictable tactics of disruption, intimidation, trading skill advantages for work rate and experience to even the odds.

Exactly. The best Leaf teams in my lifetime (90's / early 00's) won using the above method. Even the Sundin era Leafs could play a close/defensive game. This is how they ended up pummeling (the highly skilled/young) Senators so often. They were not lucky. They were bigger/stronger with more will to win.

 

[hotpaws]

the last two seasons, they did a stat that showed JT would still be the leading scorer on more than half of the NHL teams. A lot of leaf fans like you have unrealistic expectations of leafs players year in and year out. Anyone who's played hockey knows that if you hurt your hand it does effect your shooting. Why is that excuse valid for Auston but not for JT?

100% Keefe has f***ed with JT's production, JT is one of the best power play scorers in the NHL and he was moved to the second unit that gets 20 seconds each power play. That would affect his production. He also deliberately told JT to stop focusing on offensive and worry more about the defensive side of the puck. So yes coaching has played a role in his minutes and numbers and yet still he is still a top 30 scorer in the league.

It was 1 finger , not his hand or arm , nor was he in an upper body cast and it didn’t affect him for the last 2 seasons .

and it has to be great being Johnny since nothing is ever his fault , it’s always the rest of the team and the coach/mgmt that let him down , lol

 

[notbias]

Some Leaf fans believe the Leafs lost their playoff series because they lost Tavares and didn't have the depth to overcome that injury. So what if the Leafs lost one of the big 4 for 20+ game stretch of the regular season like say JT what would the team look like on paper.

Ritchie - Matthews - Marner
Bunting - Kerfoot - Nylander
Robertson -Kämpf - Mikheyev
Simmonds - Engvall - Spezza

Muzzin has a tendency to miss games due to his style of play so what if Jake or Brodie missed time what would the defense look like.

Rielly - Brodie
Dermott - Holl
Sandin - Liljegren
or
Rielly - Holl
Muzzin - Dermott
Sandin - Liljegren

How would this roster hold up for contention for a playoff spot it what is expected a highly contested and competitive Atlantic Div?

Has this not already been tested the last two years?