Line Combos: Leafs roster [Before] & [After] and work in progress

[Dekes For Days]

Did you forget to comment on Tampa winning the Cup last year without their captain???

If anything, that should reinforce that our contract structure doesn't prevent us from being able to win a cup.

 

[Racer88]

Nobody, but the Leafs were still able to win 3 games, despite the significant loss, because they are a good team. Though the actual point was that the Lee situation is not remotely comparable.

They absolutely can. The only question is whether they will. The best you can do is give yourself the best team to have the best chance. There are no guarantees in hockey.

Almost always not, but both the eye test and metrics from basic to advanced say the Leafs were very good defensively this year.

The grass usually seems greener on the other side, even when it's not. You have unequal emotional investment and viewing time for those two teams, which heavily impacts perception, especially for something like defense. Though again, the underlying points is Lee is not Tavares, regardless of how defensively you think the Islanders play.

If the Leafs are a good team because they won 3 games without Tavares then what are they since they lost the next 3 games…….a bad team

 

[deprw]

TBH it's hard for me to discuss going all the way when we've never even won one round. Same goes for showing up in the playoffs, every team should be capable of doing that but until we do, I'm not taking it for granted that we will. Outscored 18-6 in the last four series deciding games, 11-2 in the last three, that's tough to ignore. And as far as great roster, we've never finished top 5 so not sure if great is the right word. So far we've been good but less than great in the regular season and mediocre in the playoffs so yeah, it's hard for me to talk about going all the way.

Well if you think about previous winners last decade before Tampa Bay, which was something you could maybe predict. Capitals were over the hill failure franchise, Penguins didn`t have good enough defense and Murray came from nowhere. Parity has changed NHL a lot, so I see it there is a chance every year if your brink of making it. It`s damn hard but not impossible. There is no clear path towards cup win. You maximize your chances until you retool or rebuild. I think we`re in the group of top10 where anyone can make it. Off course it`s easier to see if we`d won at least one round or would have been once in the conference finals, but it is what it is. I think our team is talent wise good enough going all the way and Habs showed us this year that almost anything is possible, so there is a chance. I think it`s maybe 10% chance this year, but even with perfect projectory and rebuild it`s max 20% going all the way in the NHL anyway.

So in that sense you should always keep your expectations pretty low. At least you hail for Team Canada in olympics which always has the best odds. I support Finland, which means hoping for miracle in every tournament. Still I try to keep my hopes up.

 

[Captain Crunch]

If anything, that should reinforce that our contract structure doesn't prevent us from being able to win a cup.[/


I love how you avoid answering the question when you know you are wrong. Tampa Bay won the cup last year despite not having their captain except for maybe a couple of minutes in the deciding game. And let’s not forget this year, they did not have Kucherov for the whole season yet found ways to win. Bottom line, Tampa is built the right way which is from the net out. Dubis is so wrong trying to build a team from the forwards down!

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well if you think about previous winners last decade before Tampa Bay, which was something you could maybe predict. Capitals were over the hill failure franchise, Penguins didn`t have good enough defense and Murray came from nowhere. Parity has changed NHL a lot, so I see it there is a chance every year if your brink of making it. It`s damn hard but not impossible. There is no clear path towards cup win. You maximize your chances until you retool or rebuild. I think we`re in the group of top10 where anyone can make it. Off course it`s easier to see if we`d won at least one round or would have been once in the conference finals, but it is what it is. I think our team is talent wise good enough going all the way and Habs showed us this year that almost anything is possible, so there is a chance. I think it`s maybe 10% chance this year, but even with perfect projectory and rebuild it`s max 20% going all the way in the NHL anyway.

So in that sense you should always keep your expectations pretty low. At least you hail for Team Canada in olympics which always has the best odds. I support Finland, which means hoping for miracle in every tournament. Still I try to keep my hopes up.

I agree with most of this but I think these numbers are a to high. The odds of any team going all the way are rarely more than 15% IMO and 10% is probably too high for the Leafs. I agree that there is still a lot of talent on the team so that gives some hope. So far talent hasn't translated into success and maybe it never will but you never know. For me, the biggest question mark is why don't we show up in elimination games? Is it just a random occurrence that doesn't indicate anything rotten in our core and won't happen again or is it indicative of a serious problem that needs to be fixed before we'll ever win (and if so, WTF is it)? Those four consecutive annual failures are like a dark cloud hovering over the team and winning is the only was to make it go away. Losing to CLB was just gross and having to wait an entire year to get another shot was torture. Then MTL, I was so sure we would win the first two rounds, I've never been that confident in winning in my entire life, up 3-1 and then BOOM! The dark cloud is still there so yeah, I'm not even going to think about winning the cup until we win at least one round. Like you said, anything's possible but me personally, I'm not going spend any time thinking about it.

I'm a big fan of Finland for several reasons and would love for them to finally break through against the elite one of these days. You guys played so well against Canada in the 2002 Olympics, I'll never forget that and I never take beating the Finns for granted. I was very happy for you when you won the World Junior.

 

[francis246]

He has. When 34 was injured he filled in admirably

But fully healthy Tavares is playing sheltered minutes, 18 minutes a game for 11 million dollars. Agree or disagree?

that is not SHELTERED. That is called bad coaching. Sheltered would be deliberately making Tavares avoid certain match ups. Sheldon Keefe doesn’t even match up so your point is moot. He just rolls the lines. Tavares takes a lot of defensive zone starts so how is that being sheltered? If anything you can make a case that the Matthews line gets sheltered a lot and it helps their numbers. How many d zone starts does Matthews have? I don’t know why you’re talking like Tavares gets the most favourable match ups ever. The fact that he’s been bumped off PP1 is a joke. If it weren’t for that he’d be playing 20 minutes a night.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I love how you avoid answering the question when you know you are wrong.

I didn't avoid anything - I literally answered. We're not Tampa (yet), but we performed very well in that series without Tavares and almost won as well. But the more important point is that you just countered your entire argument. It reinforces that our contract structure doesn't prevent us from being able to win a cup.

And let’s not forget this year, they did not have Kucherov for the whole season

And it impacted them, which is why they dropped below us in the standings, even though the team they did have was still capped out.

Bottom line, Tampa is built the right way which is from the net out. Dubis is so wrong trying to build a team from the forwards down!

The parts of the team that have most been built up under Dubas are defense and goaltending, and both Toronto and Tampa are arguably the two best offensive teams in the entire league, so I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. There's also no evidence that you need to build one way only anyway - you just need a good team. Our defense is as good as Tampa now, for the record. You can't just go out and get a Vasilevsky, but we've got some good goalies, and all you really need is your goalie to go on a run.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I didn't avoid anything - I literally answered. We're not Tampa (yet), but we performed very well in that series without Tavares and almost won as well. But the more important point is that you just countered your entire argument. It reinforces that our contract structure doesn't prevent us from being able to win a cup.

And it impacted them, which is why they dropped below us in the standings, even though the team they did have was still capped out.

The parts of the team that have most been built up under Dubas are defense and goaltending, and both Toronto and Tampa are arguably the two best offensive teams in the entire league, so I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. There's also no evidence that you need to build one way only anyway - you just need a good team. Our defense is as good as Tampa now, for the record. You can't just go out and get a Vasilevsky, but we've got some good goalies, and all you really need is your goalie to go on a run.

Excuse me?

Hedman > Rielly
McDonagh > Brodie
Cernak < Muzzin
Sergachev > Holl
Bogosian > Dermott
Rutta vs Sandin or Liljegren...hard to say since we haven't had them up for 82 games.

 

[ottomaddox]

Because Dubas is such a man of his word ("we can and we will"), he mentioned using Semyon Der-Arguchintsev (when asked about using prospects to round out the roster).

So based on his word:

Bunting Matthews Marner
Ritchie Tavares Nylander
Kase Semyon Der-Arguchintsev Kerfoot
Mikheyev Envall Spezza

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Holl
Sandin Dermott
Liljegren

Campbell
Mrazek

 

[ACC1224]

Excuse me?

Hedman > Rielly
McDonagh > Brodie
Cernak < Muzzin
Sergachev > Holl
Bogosian > Dermott
Rutta vs Sandin or Liljegren...hard to say since we haven't had them up for 82 games.

Really the only difference between Tampa and Toronto is "luck"
Teams are like a mirror image of one another.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Really the only difference between Tampa and Toronto is "luck"
Teams are like a mirror image of one another.

Oh man, the "luck" argument from the Dubasites is brutal.

New philosophy for me is don't talk hockey with people who can't do it without a chart.

 

[ACC1224]

Oh man, the "luck" argument from the Dubasites is brutal.

New philosophy for me is don't talk hockey with people who can't do it without a chart.

I've avoided their rabbit holes for some time now.

 

[notbias]

Because Dubas is such a man of his word ("we can and we will"), he mentioned using Semyon Der-Arguchintsev (when asked about using prospects to round out the roster).

So based on his word:

Bunting Matthews Marner
Ritchie Tavares Nylander
Kase Semyon Der-Arguchintsev Kerfoot
Mikheyev Envall Spezza

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Holl
Sandin Dermott
Liljegren

Campbell
Mrazek

So Both Kampf and Simmonds are sitting for SDA? Seems legit, and not like you have a motive to make this team look worse on paper than they are.

We have too many NHL forwards right now, I highly doubt SDA is used at all unless there are a lot of injuries.

I'd think Robertson, Anderson, Semyonov, Brooks, and Amadio are all ahead of him.

 

[ottomaddox]

So Both Kampf and Simmonds are sitting for SDA? Seems legit, and not like you have a motive to make this team look worse on paper than they are.

We have too many NHL forwards right now, I highly doubt SDA is used at all unless there are a lot of injuries.

I'd think Robertson, Anderson, Semyonov, Brooks, and Amadio are all ahead of him.

Likely what you're saying is closer to the truth.

I don't know. There is Dubas, there is what is present, available, Keefe, and then there is his "word" as a GM. I was as surprised as anyone when he mentioned Semyon Der-Arguchintsev in his presser. Perhaps he was reaching a bit to prove a point.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Oh man, the "luck" argument from the Dubasites is brutal.

New philosophy for me is don't talk hockey with people who can't do it without a chart.

Solid philosophy

 

[Dekes For Days]

Excuse me?

You can post greater than and less than symbols all you want, but the defensive results speak for themselves.

 

[WTFMAN99]

You can post greater than and less than symbols all you want, but the defensive results speak for themselves.

They sure do, 2 cups in 2 years.

 

[Mess]

Oh man, the "luck" argument from the Dubasites is brutal.

New philosophy for me is don't talk hockey with people who can't do it without a chart.

Being a Tampa Bay Lightening fan is good luck and being a Toronto Maple Leafs fan is bad luck.

Its simply luck of the draw which team you chose to cheer for.

I was born into a Maple Leaf family so my luck was determined at birth.

 

[Dekes For Days]

They sure do, 2 cups in 2 years.

More than just defensive results factored into that.

 

[WTFMAN99]

More than just defensive results factored into that.

Spin spin spin

 

[Dekes For Days]

Spin spin spin

You should go tell Tampa that Kucherov and Vasilevsky don't matter. Could solve their cap issues!

 

[Golden_Jet]

You should go tell Tampa that Kucherov and Vasilevsky don't matter. Could solve their cap issues!

With Seabrook on IR, they are compliant by 10 thousand with a 22 man roster.

 

[Captain Crunch]

I didn't avoid anything - I literally answered. We're not Tampa (yet), but we performed very well in that series without Tavares and almost won as well. But the more important point is that you just countered your entire argument. It reinforces that our contract structure doesn't prevent us from being able to win a cup.

And it impacted them, which is why they dropped below us in the standings, even though the team they did have was still capped out.

The parts of the team that have most been built up under Dubas are defense and goaltending, and both Toronto and Tampa are arguably the two best offensive teams in the entire league, so I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. There's also no evidence that you need to build one way only anyway - you just need a good team. Our defense is as good as Tampa now, for the record. You can't just go out and get a Vasilevsky, but we've got some good goalies, and all you really need is your goalie to go on a run.

Sorry, but my question to you was how come Tampa was able, not only to advance in the playoffs, but also win the Cup with their captain missing the entire playoff run except for a few minutes in the Cup winner? But we can’t even get out of the first round (not to mention a very embarrassing collapse) without our captain? I apologize if you didn’t understand it the first time I asked you.
They may have dropped below us in the standings, but they sure can perform when it matters most, something our team can’t comprehend.
As far as evidence in how to properly build a team, results speak for themselves (unless you are fortunate enough to have a player similar to Tom Brady).
And as far as being as good as Tampa offensively, as these Leafs have continually shown us, it matters dick all when the playoffs start.
Now I would like to return to talking about Tavares, the player to whom you credit for being so hard to replace and the major reason why we choked against Montreal. From 2009-2018 his Islanders made the playoffs 3 times ((that’s 3 out to 10 times = 30%). Twice they lost in the first round and once got to the second round. Of course, maybe he got hurt in all 3 playoff series and that would account for why they lost. My point is, if the Leafs weren’t such chokers, they should have been able to at least get by Montreal (remember, they won 3 games without him, they only needed to win 1 out of the next 3).
I am looking forward to how you will twist this all around to support your flimsy argument.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Sorry, but my question to you was how come Tampa was able, not only to advance in the playoffs, but also win the Cup with their captain missing the entire playoff run except for a few minutes in the Cup winner?

Losing a player like that doesn't make winning impossible, just considerably harder. Tampa was an amazing team. We were quite close to winning our series against the Cup finalists without our elite player and captain too.

They may have dropped below us in the standings, but they sure can perform when it matters most

You were discussing when Kucherov was gone. Kucherov was there in the playoffs.

As far as evidence in how to properly build a team, results speak for themselves

They do not suggest we are built improperly though. That's just something you've arbitrarily concluded to explain away surface results that you refuse to properly understand the reasons for. Teams of all kinds and make-ups have won cups, and the majority of our team's losses have not even come when the team was "top heavy", as you put it. You also yourself gave an example of a team that won with a ton of cap sitting on the sidelines. How cap is distributed is really quite irrelevant, as long as you have a good team. It's not why we've lost.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Sorry, but my question to you was how come Tampa was able, not only to advance in the playoffs, but also win the Cup with their captain missing the entire playoff run except for a few minutes in the Cup winner? But we can’t even get out of the first round (not to mention a very embarrassing collapse) without our captain? I apologize if you didn’t understand it the first time I asked you.
They may have dropped below us in the standings, but they sure can perform when it matters most, something our team can’t comprehend.
As far as evidence in how to properly build a team, results speak for themselves (unless you are fortunate enough to have a player similar to Tom Brady).
And as far as being as good as Tampa offensively, as these Leafs have continually shown us, it matters dick all when the playoffs start.
Now I would like to return to talking about Tavares, the player to whom you credit for being so hard to replace and the major reason why we choked against Montreal. From 2009-2018 his Islanders made the playoffs 3 times ((that’s 3 out to 10 times = 30%). Twice they lost in the first round and once got to the second round. Of course, maybe he got hurt in all 3 playoff series and that would account for why they lost. My point is, if the Leafs weren’t such chokers, they should have been able to at least get by Montreal (remember, they won 3 games without him, they only needed to win 1 out of the next 3).
I am looking forward to how you will twist this all around to support your flimsy argument.

298 to 185....... that is the hits thrown in the series in favour of Montreal. This team doesn’t compete to the level confronted with. Lets forgive our top players that carry this team regular season year after year. The rest watch these guys get targeted and do nothing about it. If Dubas knows what is good for a team he better keep cleaning house. If you are yellow,don’t hit,don’t block shots and don’t defend your teammates, maybe you don’t belong in the Nhl and especially not on the Leafs.
Ritchie and Gabriel and fiesty bunting are a start. Montreal fully intended to hit them every turn and targeted our stars with no problem in doing so. Bunch of yellow cowards cost us that series and they need to be removed from the team. They do nothing good staying around.
Maybe Dubas’s trust in the core is just fine. Why would he trust the rest of the do nothings in the lineup is more the question i would like to hear him answer.