Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose

[KPower]

No depth, weak D, questionable goaltending( Sammy was good tonight).

This is the worst lineup in years.

 

[notDatsyuk]

At 11.5M he has to put up 100+ pt for the first half of his deal

Generating and looking decent are worthless now

Hes going to be on the Matthews/Marner/Tavares payscale so expectations will be similar to them

Two ways of looking at that:

If he wasn't generating chances for both himself and his linemates I'd be more concerned. Playing well and generating chances usually means the points will come.

Except for Matty's goals (and he's not on the Matthews payscale), he's doing better than all three so far this year, so if expectations are similar either he's exceeding or they aren't meeting.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

I don't think it's necessarily that trading Mitch Marner the player is the answer. It's that having 4, or even 3 forwards making 11mil+ a year is definitely not the answer.

So you have to pick who stays. Personally I think 2 is too many, but let's say we can get there with 2 forwards making 11mil+ a year.

Which two do you get rid of? And how?

I think it's pretty obvious you hang on to the big 3 and let Tavares' come off the books. The cap is going up and we can afford to pay the big 3.

JT never lived up to his contract and I don't even want him back on a discount. The captain is supposed to be the heart and soul of the team and he has neither of those. He's a robot.

 

[hamzarocks]

Two ways of looking at that:

If he wasn't generating chances for both himself and his linemates I'd be more concerned. Playing well and generating chances usually means the points will come.

Except for Matty's goals (and he's not on the Matthews payscale), he's doing better than all three so far this year, so if expectations are similar either he's exceeding or they aren't meeting.

Marner is having a down year for sure

Tavares is super overpaid

The pt is Marner as a 90-95 pt player at 11M is getting ragged and isnt living up to his deal

Nylander makes 500K more starting next year.

He has 5 pts in 11 games since signing his deal. Some of it is bad luck, some reverting to the norm (he isnt a 120 pt player) some of it poor play, some of it linemates sucking too

Next year he runs of of goodwill is my point. He will be critiqued and analyzed like 34 and 16 are and 91 should be if everyone didnt already know hes never going to be close to 11M player

 

[ACC1224]

Marner is having a down year for sure

Tavares is super overpaid

The pt is Marner as a 90-95 pt player at 11M is getting ragged and isnt living up to his deal

Nylander makes 500K more starting next year.

He has 5 pts in 11 games since signing his deal. Some of it is bad luck, some reverting to the norm (he isnt a 120 pt player) some of it poor play, some of it linemates sucking too

Next year he runs of of goodwill is my point. He will be critiqued and analyzed like 34 and 16 are and 91 should be if everyone didnt already know hes never going to be close to 11M player

One guy is having a 'horrible season' and one guy is having a 'phenomenal season' yet they are separated by 2 goals and 6 assists.

 

[mjd1001]

Dallas is going to destroy these clowns two nights from now.

Maybe, but I really don't think so. Toronto seems to match up well against teams that they can outskate without really trying. Dallas, aren't they on the back end of a back to back? Playing the night before in Buffalo I think?

 

[Fogelhund]

Yes, and how do you explain, it working for them and not us? As one poster said, Bert was the top UFA last summer. He and Domi had solid playoffs and appeared to be good signings. Leafs had been trying to acquire Bert for years. Maybe it is the coach or the core ?

If you look at who has worked with Matthews/Marner, it's Hyman and Bunting. Both are high IQ players, who know how to maximize their modest talent, playing with elite players. They both excelled at their roles. Hyman in particular is probably a guy who's IQ has allowed him to excel well beyond a natural talent set.... probably one of the best I've seen at that. Bertuzzi might have more raw talent, but doesn't have the high end IQ, to be that right complimentary player. In Bertuzzi's case... it's Bertuzzi.

Domi is 61st in scoring for C's.... That's low end 2C production... at $3 million, playing 3C minutes. For the pay, he's actually producing quite well. Only two points in the last 12 games is an issue though. I appreciate he isn't the shutdown 3C, but he's depth scoring, on a team that needs it. I think this is an ok signing so far, and if he can continue to develop chemistry with Robertson, it could be a good signing.

The Leafs problem is really that we had elite offensive core, and good defensive players, that played a possession game. Guys like Engvall, Kerfoot, Acciari.. they helped us play a good possession game... they might be vanilla, but it worked. Their replacements are weaker defensively, and not as possession driven. Moreso.. having the puck more, meant our defensive issues were masked. Having the puck less this year, and some weaker defensive players has resulted in defensive weaknesses and breakdowns being exposed.

In the bottom six, Kampf in particular excelled with faster, puck possession players. At $1.5 million, putting up 27 5v5 points last year, Kampf was an excellent value depth player. Some of that was his skills, some was putting him with the right players that complimented who he was. Engvall, Kerfoot, ZAR did this for Kampf. All fairly fast guys, who play possession. Paying the same Kampf $2.5 million, and then putting him with Reaves, Gregor, McMann.... I mean that's just not smart at all.

You want a cerebral guy to compliment Matthews and Marner.
You want faster possession guys to compliment Kampf
You want a stay at home, physical guy to compliment Rielly.

We have objectively failed to address any three of those components this year. Throwing a bunch of individuals doesn't make a team... finding a way to take what you have, and compliment them does.

 

[Evilhomer]

Maybe, but I really don't think so. Toronto seems to match up well against teams that they can outskate without really trying. Dallas, aren't they on the back end of a back to back? Playing the night before in Buffalo I think?

The Leafs tend to win when people expect them to lose, so they will probably beat Dallas to take the heat off Keefe again.

 

[Fogelhund]

Same thing Bunting- that's the gig. Find round pegs for round holes in the cap space available to you.

I talked about finding the right complimentary players in post 308...

 

[Aashir]

One guy is having a 'horrible season' and one guy is having a 'phenomenal season' yet they are separated by 2 goals and 6 assists.

It’s all relative to expectations and pay

Marner is expected to be a 100 point player due to skill and salary

Until next year nylander was expected to be ppg due to skill and salary

Marner plays his cards right and asks for 11x8 and will lose a lot of criticism as nylander becomes a whipping boy

 

[leafs in five]

even Bertuzzi in his best light doesn't scream 'raw talent' to me. whatever I'm sure he'll do well enough somewhere else this year or next.

 

[rumman]

He agrees to waive, it's not the least bit complicated.


I doubt he would refuse. People rarely want to stay where they're not wanted, and I especially doubt someone who seems to lack mental toughness the way Marner does would be that rare exception.

I could see under this scenario Marner just playing out next season and walking on his own if they tell him he’s not wanted going forward. Sadly there’s no happy endings when you let the player have all the leverage………

 

[Gary Nylund]

That was going to happen anyway. If you look at the team at the start of last season compared to the team that entered the playoffs, I think the plan was to re-tool regardless of outcome. Addin a bumbled off-season and I’m not surprised with the results.

All I'm saying is that it's not as simple as "Dubas destroyed the team". We don't know what his plan was, but for sure he wasn't the one who bumbled the off-season.

Who had JvR at a 60 point pace in the offseason? That's incredible value, that I doubt anyone could have guessed or predicted. No doubt that they are a well run, and coached team... but man do they get lucky sometimes too.

I wanted JVR. I wasn't thinking in terms of 60 points but .. I wanted him.

 

[rumman]

We were a match for Boston in 2019 and 2018. If we are not a match 5 years later, it would show just how bad a GM Dubas was and how good Sweeney is.

in Toronto failure is readily accepted, in Boston not so much………

Would you want to stay somewhere where you're not wanted? Especially if it leaks to the media that he's been asked to waive (which it likely would), he'd be the centre of a controversial shit storm that wouldn't let up for a minute until he agrees to leave.

This wouldn’t be good for Mitch, nor for the team in general in my opinion, but there’s always drama with this team so what’s the difference……..

 

[thewave]

One guy is having a 'horrible season' and one guy is having a 'phenomenal season' yet they are separated by 2 goals and 6 assists.

He isn't having a horrible season. He just had a slow start and will finish with under 100pts as always.

Nylander got paid what Marners next contract should have been at the absolute max. Now it projects to exceed that. What is a 95pt player worth? I am guessing additional term and 100k less than Matthews.

This again will be a massive overpay that leaves us down 2 good players or 1 very good player worth of cap space.

I dont get the logic. Talent or depth cost money. Overpays steal from that fund.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I could see under this scenario Marner just playing out next season and walking on his own if they tell him he’s not wanted going forward. Sadly there’s no happy endings when you let the player have all the leverage………

No way to know for sure but if they work something out with a team that Marner would be happy to go to (since he has to go somewhere anyway), I see no reason why he wouldn't want to get that new chapter of his life started immediately. Go someplace where he's wanted instead of playing out the season here in the middle of a media freakshow would be my choice anyway.

This wouldn’t be good for Mitch, nor for the team in general in my opinion, but there’s always drama with this team so what’s the difference……..

Indeed, it's almost like a law of nature or something. Sigh.

 

[Fogelhund]

I wanted JVR. I wasn't thinking in terms of 60 points but .. I wanted him.

JvR's speed has declined and he's never been great defensively. Playing with Coyle and Frederic primarily mask that, in a way that wouldn't work here... we don't have those players, who would compliment him. I don't think JvR would be having nearly as a good a season here.

 

[rumman]

That pathetic loser piece of shit fraud Dubas absolutely destroyed this team. Imagine being so incompetent to f*** up a rebuild like this.

All under the watchful eye of the President, Shanahan has to go, he’s the source of this madness……..

 

[rumman]

Agreed that they might not have the right stuff, but there is no denying they are better players 5+ years later. If that is true, the rest of the team has regressed. All you have to do is look at what we had in 2018/2019 and what we have today.

I think the annual turnover of slugs that fill out the roster has a lot to do with the team’s lack of success, how can a team gel when it’s not given enough time to become a family? Only thing consistent in Toronto is change to everything but the core four…….

 

[Nineteen67]

All I'm saying is that it's not as simple as "Dubas destroyed the team". We don't know what his plan was, but for sure he wasn't the one who bumbled the off-season.


I wanted JVR. I wasn't thinking in terms of 60 points but .. I wanted him.

I agree 100%. It was bungled off-season, to say the least.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Who gives a PPG player that deal? Check that, we know who. As for Willie, I think he is a 90+ point player when he wants to be and therein lies the problem.

Dubas gave JT a better deal (13.84%) and his best season was 86 points.
Dubas gave Matthews a better deal (14.64%) and his best season was 69 points.
Dubas gave Marner a slightly smaller deal (13.38%) and his best season was 69 points.

When Tre gave Nylander that deal (13.77%) his best season was 87 points.

 

[rumman]

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The Rangers had the balls to take a step back to take two forward. I doubt Shanny would do that now after saying this core will win for the past half decade.

You never know, he does live in New York City, probably a closet Rangers fan to boot…….

I suspect it's more just Tavares slumping at the same time. I don't think there will be any issue with Nylander. Before long he will be back to racking up points.

I predict the pre contract extension Styles doesn’t return this season, maybe not ever……..

 

[Gilmour1996]

I think the annual turnover of slugs that fill out the roster has a lot to do with the team’s lack of success, how can a team gel when it’s not given enough time to become a family?

Can't have a happy family when 4 of the brothers are being treated like queens and the other brothers treated like serfs.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I don't think it's necessarily that trading Mitch Marner the player is the answer. It's that having 4, or even 3 forwards making 11mil+ a year is definitely not the answer.

So you have to pick who stays. Personally I think 2 is too many, but let's say we can get there with 2 forwards making 11mil+ a year.

Which two do you get rid of? And how?

Keep the two best and, if they won't waive their NTCs let the other two walk after next season.

 

[puckie]

If you look at player makeup, I think they definitely need a coaching change. Definitely, not producing for the talent they have. At most, I think you might get a second round for Domi or Bertuzzi. I might switch Domi and Bertuzzi on lines. Domi has 4 more points and is averaging about 3 minutes less with lesser and rotating line mates. He is more of a playmaker.