Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose

[pspot]

anyone who expected Nylander to maintain his pre contract production was fooling themselves. Near a point per game is pretty good and probably a realistic ceiling for him...on a high scoring team, with top minutes, for the next couple of years....years 3 to 8 lol . Just as they are about to get out of one mistake (JT) they trip into another one, i'm not hating on nylander , i'm frustrated that they don't put themselves in a position with control and options to address what the team actually needs , which we've been saying for 4 to 5 years now. Top pair RHD , goaltending and team compete

 

[Gary Nylund]

Agreed but losing to Florida in 5 is telling. Let's not forget what Dubas added at the TDL by dealing futures. Without those moves, Vasi leaking goals and injuries to their D, Tampa wins that series IMO.

Yeah maybe. Man the state of this team is just depressing. We've been a good regular season that can't perform in the playoffs, now we're maybe falling off a cliff during the regular season ...

 

[ToneDog]

Dubas sold the farm to get past the first round

1st + 2nd + 4th for ROR
1st + 2nd for McCabe

He tried to recoup assets with the Sandin trade, but that leaves us with no young dmen on the team

So he gave up 2 1st + 2nd for a #4 dman and 11 playoff games

Nailed it. Tre would have to start dealing picks 5 years into the future to get us to round #2. Hopefully he is smarter than that and has a plan going forward. Dubas' plan was to surround this core with Tom, Dick and Harry for 5 years because he thought, it is not possible to lose with this core. He was wrong and so is Shanny. Our only hope is Tre saw this from afar or Shanny is fired.

anyone who expected Nylander to maintain his pre contract production was fooling themselves. Near a point per game is pretty good and probably a realistic ceiling for him...on a high scoring team, with top minutes, for the next couple of years....years 3 to 8 lol . Just as they are about to get out of one mistake (JT) they trip into another one, i'm not hating on nylander , i'm frustrated that they don't put themselves in a position with control and options to address what the team actually needs , which we've been saying for 4 to 5 years now. Top pair RHD , goaltending and team compete

Who gives a PPG player that deal? Check that, we know who. As for Willie, I think he is a 90+ point player when he wants to be and therein lies the problem.

 

[Nineteen67]

You guys are obsessed with the first place thing. Turns out, barring the unexpected the rest of the season, I was wrong. I guess that never happens here?

As for Domi and Bertuzzi, I don't think any team would give a first round pick for Domi. I suspect they could get one for Bertuzzi because there are teams out there that would look past his numbers this season, but I think it's all irrelevant because I just don't see Treliving doing it.

Last year Bertuzzi scored 8 goals. In his best year he scored 30 in 68 and has had a couple of 21 goal season. Maybe he’s just a 15 goal scorer.

 

[thewave]

Yeah maybe. Man the state of this team is just depressing. We've been a good regular season that can't perform in the playoffs, now we're maybe falling off a cliff during the regular season ...

MLSE today: We need a campaign that showcases the magic of the last place LA Kings team that basically swept its way to a Cup.

Don't worry Charlie, Lucy is setting the ball for you. Just one more time, and for really real this time.

 

[4thline]

Dubas sold the farm to get past the first round

1st + 2nd + 4th for ROR
1st + 2nd for McCabe

He tried to recoup assets with the Sandin trade, but that leaves us with no young dmen on the team

So he gave up 2 1st + 2nd for a #4 dman and 11 playoff games

Details, but we also got an excellent defensive forward in Acciari in the ROR deal, 3 years of McCabe, and 2 years of a versatile bottom 6er in Lafferty in the McCabe deal.

But yes, it was a lot out the door, and the team shit the bed.

And the point still remains, we were a much better team under a lower cap under the guy everyone wants to blame for the current state of the team because the alternative is confronting the fact that
A. putting out 105, 110+ point teams isn't a given, even with a star core
B. the hockey man that was supposed to be the savior has so far underperformed relative to the idiot kid

Dubas didn't get the job done, and spent a lot of futures in his failure. He's gone. Deservedly so- it was time for another approach. But that approach hasn't been good.

 

[Fogelhund]

Agreed but losing to Florida in 5 is telling. Let's not forget what Dubas added at the TDL by dealing futures. Without those moves, Vasi leaking goals and injuries to their D, Tampa wins that series IMO.

Bottom line, we beat Tampa... there are no excuses, or "ifs" or buts...
Bottom line, we lost to Florida.... there are no excuses, or "ifs" or buts...and yes, it was telling... The core disappeared, and weren't good enough again.

Yes, Dubas took the best version of the Leafs team, and added to it... added pretty much exactly what the team needed. Yes, it cost futures, and it sucks now. But every fan would have been angry had we not added... most fans regularly want us to obtain the biggest shiny names...

We don't get to be angry that a GM tried and failed, on a team that should be close to competing... and angry that he didn't do enough at the same time.

From 2019-20 to 2022-23 the top seven teams in the league are Boston, Colorado, Carolina, Toronto, Tampa, Vegas, Florida Four of those teams made the finals, three won... These seven are the elite teams of the league over that period. It not only should be expected, it should be demanded that such teams do what they can, to get them over the hump. It worked for four of those teams, it didn't for three. That's the way sports goes. Toronto has been an elite team in the league, one that should be competing for the cup.

If your response is... we shouldn't have gone all in, at any point in the past, and saved our picks... fair enough... I will disagree, and any GM who would have stood pat every year would have been absolutely lynched by this fanbase.

Again, the Leafs results in regular season suggest an elite team.... they tried, it failed, and now it's time to rethink things... we can't be buyers, and we need some new eyeballs.

 

[ToneDog]

Yeah maybe. Man the state of this team is just depressing. We've been a good regular season that can't perform in the playoffs, now we're maybe falling off a cliff during the regular season ...

The core is rotten. One of the most unlikable in Leafs history. Clearly puts money ahead of winning a SC. But hey, Marner did give Barzal a solid hit in the corner last night. Made me think, why does he only do it when an opponent pisses him off?

 

[4thline]

Nailed it. Tre would have to start dealing picks 5 years into the future to get us to round #2. Hopefully he is smarter than that and has a plan going forward. Dubas' plan was to surround this core with Tom, Dick and Harry for 5 years because he thought,

Boston literally went out and spent
2m on Geekie
1m on JVR
775k on Heinen
1m on Shattenkirk

to play meaningful minutes this year.

 

[Aashir]

Nailed it. Tre would have to start dealing picks 5 years into the future to get us to round #2. Hopefully he is smarter than that and has a plan going forward. Dubas' plan was to surround this core with Tom, Dick and Harry for 5 years because he thought, it is not possible to lose with this core. He was wrong and so is Shanny. Our only hope is Tre saw this from afar or Shanny is fired.

I’m not opposed to selling at the deadline

Deal Bert, domi, Brodie, should get you a few 3rds and 2nds. You can either draft with them or deal them at the draft day or package some of those picks to get different type of depth.

I don’t touch our 1st unless it’s either a 2LD 1-2RD Or top 6 LW signed with term.

Give Robertson and Liljegren a bigger role, trade for 1 stop gap 3rd liner and play him top 6 and move knies down to 3rd line. If you make the playoffs still then good on you



As for the season results, much rather stay in the current dog race and hope to play a metro team, I think we match up better than vs florida

 

[notDatsyuk]

Where do I read up on it?

PK Subban was traded before his NTC on his extension kicked in. Is this a recent change?

Check the CBA, or accept what a lot of other posters have told you and what the capfriendly site says.

 

[Confucius]

The way ive seen it this year is we are far from elite. Probably middle of the road. Maybe win a round. And i have no idea how you can change anything to change my mind.

Problem is when you are a middle tier team, you generally get matched up with a top tier team in the 1st round. Then for some reason if you don’t win 4 of 7 you are looked at as chokers. Makes no sense to me but it is lynch mob mentality.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Trading Marner isn't the answer. Our offense is dry enough already. We need to find left wingers that actually click with our top players because Bert and Knies are not it. They should be racking up easy numbers in this top 6 but for whatever reasons they are not. Bunting would be a huge upgrade right now. Our left wingers blow.

I don't think it's necessarily that trading Mitch Marner the player is the answer. It's that having 4, or even 3 forwards making 11mil+ a year is definitely not the answer.

So you have to pick who stays. Personally I think 2 is too many, but let's say we can get there with 2 forwards making 11mil+ a year.

Which two do you get rid of? And how?

 

[ToneDog]

Boston literally went out and spent
2m on Geekie
1m on JVR
775k on Heinen
1m on Shattenkirk

to play meaningful minutes this year.

Yes, and how do you explain, it working for them and not us? As one poster said, Bert was the top UFA last summer. He and Domi had solid playoffs and appeared to be good signings. Leafs had been trying to acquire Bert for years. Maybe it is the coach or the core ?

 

[Nineteen67]

You could also argue that the regression happened this past summer after Dubas left, all you have to do is look at what we had last season and what we have today.

That was going to happen anyway. If you look at the team at the start of last season compared to the team that entered the playoffs, I think the plan was to re-tool regardless of outcome. Addin a bumbled off-season and I’m not surprised with the results.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Tre didn’t give Nylander an NMC on a max value contract? Damn, unlucky again. That’s like 10+ super unlucky moves in a row for that guy now, sounds to me like his luck is due to turn around any day now.

Tre gave him the NMC. The fact that it starts immediately rather than July 1 wasn't his doing, but part of the CBA.

 

[Fogelhund]

Boston literally went out and spent
2m on Geekie
1m on JVR
775k on Heinen
1m on Shattenkirk

to play meaningful minutes this year.

Who had JvR at a 60 point pace in the offseason? That's incredible value, that I doubt anyone could have guessed or predicted. No doubt that they are a well run, and coached team... but man do they get lucky sometimes too.

 

[ToneDog]

I’m not opposed to selling at the deadline

Deal Bert, domi, Brodie, should get you a few 3rds and 2nds. You can either draft with them or deal them at the draft day or package some of those picks to get different type of depth.

I don’t touch our 1st unless it’s either a 2LD 1-2RD Or top 6 LW signed with term.

Give Robertson and Liljegren a bigger role, trade for 1 stop gap 3rd liner and play him top 6 and move knies down to 3rd line. If you make the playoffs still then good on you



As for the season results, much rather stay in the current dog race and hope to play a metro team, I think we match up better than vs florida

Love to watch a Leafs/Rangers playoff series but unless Shesterkin plays terrible, I can't see the Leafs beating the Rangers.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Also led with a -2 , tied with Domi and Bertuzzi.

Yeah - he and Bert were victims of bad giveaways by the D.

 

[Racer88]

I don't think it's necessarily that trading Mitch Marner the player is the answer. It's that having 4, or even 3 forwards making 11mil+ a year is definitely not the answer.

So you have to pick who stays. Personally I think 2 is too many, but let's say we can get there with 2 forwards making 11mil+ a year.

Which two do you get rid of? And how?

Tavares should be the first one to go
Matthews is untouchable
the other one to go should have been either Marner or Willy which ever one could have brought the highest return But that ship has sailed, Will is locked here and the only option is letting Marner walk for nothing and that’s a bad waste of an asset.
Thus entire build has been handled with incompetence right from the start

Love to watch a Leafs/Rangers playoff series but unless Shesterkin plays terrible, I can't see the Leafs beating the Rangers.

Let’s be honest, who do you seethe Leafs beating?

 

[Confucius]

Yeah maybe. Man the state of this team is just depressing. We've been a good regular season that can't perform in the playoffs, now we're maybe falling off a cliff during the regular season ...

Well they did go for toughness as opposed to Engvall types who could contribute offensively. I guess they had playoffs in mind and screw the regular season. A mistake in my eyes but it is what it is.

 

[ACC1224]

It's good to see we've evolved from placing the troubles on Van Ryn.

 

[4thline]

Yes, and how do you explain, it working for them and not us? As one poster said, Bert was the top UFA last summer. He and Domi had solid playoffs and appeared to be good signings. Leafs had been trying to acquire Bert for years. Maybe it is the coach or the core ?

They appeared to be good signings... to the people that prematurely anointed this the best offseason ever/ proof that Dubas was ruining everything, and shouted down any complaints about the likely short comings of the F group and the cap allocation. They didn't make a whole lot of sense when laying out our F group.

It worked for them because they identified good undervalued players that fit the needs of their team to ice a cohesive, sensible NHL roster to support their talent. A GM's job.

 

[Nineteen67]

There would be no need to make it public. If it did come out, Marner is very popular amongst the fans and teammates, he certainly wouldn't face any backlash.

When he’s not re-signed in July the questions will start. And if there’s no progress on contract negotiations going into the season…..it might actually leak.

 

[4thline]

Who had JvR at a 60 point pace in the offseason? That's incredible value, that I doubt anyone could have guessed or predicted. No doubt that they are a well run, and coached team... but man do they get lucky sometimes too.

Same thing Bunting- that's the gig. Find round pegs for round holes in the cap space available to you.