Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose 4-2

[Brown Dog]

More interested in the response and lineup changes next game than I am at rehashing this game.

My issue with this mindset is that these games (Arizona, Montreal) are the very kinds of games where this team has historically struggled. Last night--like opening night--was a chance to show their "response" and instead they showed that we probably shouldn't count on anything being different this year.

 

[AvroArrow]

Maybe they are in the process of tuning out the coach?

Guess time will tell.

In my honest opinion the biggest problem with this team is the players believe they run the team/organization, and it shows on the ice. I don't know how else to put it, but they feel like they're at the top of the organization, there's no accountability or standard or no one to answer to. It's like the GM/Coaches are scared to do their jobs because the star players might get upset and leave and I really don't like it.

I could be wrong but that is just how I feel about this team when I see efforts like that. In any other job you have to answer to your superior as to why you're not performing. With these guys there's like a level of entitlement, it's like "wtf you gonna do ? I'll just leave I'm the star" and it looks like the coaching/management staff is all afraid. It's a horrible culture to have and not one you can succeed with. I know we are just 4 games into the season but this is something we've seen over and over again. We need a stronger face in the organization. Whether it's in upper management/coaching/player personnel.

If anyone has seen the documentary on netflix about the redeem team and how everything changed once Kobe got on board, that's pretty much what this team needs. Loads and loads of talent, just no killer instinct, no sense of urgency/purpose and incompetence is accepted.

This team needs an accomplished leader/coach with a strong resume and work ethic who holds his guys accountable, that's been missing for a very long time and IMO is the biggest reason why we see garbage like what he had to watch last night.

 

[Trapper]

From Friedman

Part of Sheldon Keefe’s post-game breakdown: “Our best people have not found their rhythm…The difference between us and Arizona is that we have elite players. Our elite players didn't play like elite players today and couldn’t make a difference.

What a horrible comment. To me, that means you don’t have a team. It’s up to 1 or 2 guys to always be the difference? No wonder we lose in the playoffs.

 

[Racer88]

I get it that bad teams beat good teams sometimes but this happens way to often to this group. It’s the same dam thing year after year. Keefe‘s comment is that the elite players haven’t found their rhythm yet. Why haven’t they found their rhythm. These core guys have been stars and “best player” their entire lives, shouldn’t they already know how to be ready to start a game/season. It is starting to look like as individuals they are great but as a team they suck, then add in the fact that they take up so much of the cap that yet again we have to rely on bargain bin scrubs. This brings us to goaltending. Dubas’s record on goaltending should result in his firing. He has treated the net as an afterthought.
I don’t think there is an easy fix for this but at some point ownership is going to have to deal with some very tough question regarding management and this defective team structure.

In my honest opinion the biggest problem with this team is the players believe they run the team/organization, and it shows on the ice. I don't know how else to put it, but they feel like they're at the top of the organization, there's no accountability or standard or no one to answer to. It's like the GM/Coaches are scared to do their jobs because the star players might get upset and leave and I really don't like it.

I could be wrong but that is just how I feel about this team when I see efforts like that. In any other job you have to answer to your superior as to why you're not performing. With these guys there's like a level of entitlement, it's like "wtf you gonna do ? I'll just leave I'm the star" and it looks like the coaching/management staff is all afraid. It's a horrible culture to have and not one you can succeed with. I know we are just 4 games into the season but this is something we've seen over and over again. We need a stronger face in the organization. Whether it's in upper management/coaching/player personnel.

If anyone has seen the documentary on netflix about the redeem team and how everything changed once Kobe got on board, that's pretty much what this team needs. Loads and loads of talent, just no killer instinct, no sense of urgency/purpose and incompetence is accepted.

This team needs an accomplished leader/coach with a strong resume and work ethic who holds his guys accountable, that's been missing for a very long time and IMO is the biggest reason why we see garbage like what he had to watch last night.

When you have a few players making so much money on essentially short contract no leader will be able to hold them accountable, they have all the power

 

[CDN24]

No lie I wouldn't mind bringing back Babcock

He is technically still being paid this year

 

[namttebih]

He also kept sparks over mcbackup.

Traded Kadri for barrie and kerfoot.

Traded for an injured foligno.

Overpaid for an injury prone Murray.

These are but a few examples from a massive list. Yet the dubas fan boys will tell you he's great at drafting, amazing at trades, good at signing players and one of the best gms in the league.

But look at all of the Dubas picks in the lineup...

 

[Torontonian]

I get it that bad teams beat good teams sometimes but this happens way to often to this group. It’s the same dam thing year after year. Keefe‘s comment is that the elite players haven’t found their rhythm yet. Why haven’t they found their rhythm. These core guys have been stars and “best player” their entire lives, shouldn’t they already know how to be ready to start a game/season. It is starting to look like as individuals they are great but as a team they suck, then add in the fact that they take up so much of the cap that yet again we have to rely on bargain bin scrubs. This brings us to goaltending. Dubas’s record on goaltending should result in his firing. He has treated the net as an afterthought.
I don’t think there is an easy fix for this but at some point ownership is going to have to deal with some very tough question regarding management and this defective team structure.


When you have a few players making so much money on essentially short contract no leader will be able to hold them accountable, they have all the power

It's the first week of the regular season, people are looking into this loss too much. They sucked last night there's no denying that but it's fairly obvious our better players in Matthews and Marner haven't gotten into their regular form, I've never seen Matthews miss so many shots or Marner bobble a puck and not make a pass.

If the team is playing like this come mid November then its worrisome, but this entire month and a half is just pond hockey, you just hope you don't drop out of the race or have season effecting injuries at the start, there are always pretender teams that drop off once you are into November/December and the real hockey is back.

 

[egd27]

Understand what you are saying BUT strongly disagree. Who is MR trying to pass it to? too many variables in that play to be called back. That could happen once a game. It should not be part of the game, not in the essence of the rule and they really had to do it at a pivotal moment in the game (1 min left and under). It makes zero sense IMO. So a D can't bat a puck down to keep it in anymore? also, VERY inconclusive considering no call on the ice. glove, Keller skate. play on. What a joke. Not sure how you are so sure it was the right call. I'm not attacking you at all, just absolutely shocked this is the nature of our game. If this is the case I hope to see it every single game I watch other than the leafs.

What part are you strongly disagreeing with? I said that the play while "technically" could be interpreted as against the rule, it in no way violated the "spirit of the rule" of a hand pass, and should not have resulted in the goal being called back.

 

[fancy lad]

Team plays with no purpose out there. There's zero killer instinct and zero hunger. A kid like Robertson would actually go a long way. As would a guy like Wayne Simmonds.

i would feel so ripped off if i paid hundreds to go to that game in person.

 

[baton elevated]

2 words that describe this team the last 20 years "country club" this city elevates the players to God status and these guys believe it.

 

[ToneDog]

Team deserved to lose. Had they pulled it out in OT, they learn nothing. Hopefully this loss will send them a message and they change but I doubt it.

Not sure I heard it right that they had no shots on 5 PPs ??? Love to pass the puck around the perimeter looking for the perfect play ??? Nobody willing to pay the price ?? Who cares, it is the playoffs that matter. Apologies to the suckers that pay to watch regular season hockey.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

In my honest opinion the biggest problem with this team is the players believe they run the team/organization, and it shows on the ice. I don't know how else to put it, but they feel like they're at the top of the organization, there's no accountability or standard or no one to answer to. It's like the GM/Coaches are scared to do their jobs because the star players might get upset and leave and I really don't like it.

I could be wrong but that is just how I feel about this team when I see efforts like that. In any other job you have to answer to your superior as to why you're not performing. With these guys there's like a level of entitlement, it's like "wtf you gonna do ? I'll just leave I'm the star" and it looks like the coaching/management staff is all afraid. It's a horrible culture to have and not one you can succeed with. I know we are just 4 games into the season but this is something we've seen over and over again. We need a stronger face in the organization. Whether it's in upper management/coaching/player personnel.

If anyone has seen the documentary on netflix about the redeem team and how everything changed once Kobe got on board, that's pretty much what this team needs. Loads and loads of talent, just no killer instinct, no sense of urgency/purpose and incompetence is accepted.

This team needs an accomplished leader/coach with a strong resume and work ethic who holds his guys accountable, that's been missing for a very long time and IMO is the biggest reason why we see garbage like what he had to watch last night.

Well said. Avs players are scared to have a bad shift during practice or daddy Mac will give them shit. He works his ass off year round and doesn't tolerate anything less from his teammates. You think any of our star players have that effect on teammates? I'm not sure if Tavares speaks at all in the dressing room, let alone giving anyone shit. Matthews is more likely to get angry at teammates for not joining him post-game at the pub than he is for them taking a shift off.

As we've heard again and again, there is no "killer instinct" from our star players. Even the President of the team says so. I think the only reason they want to get past the first round is because it's gotten embarrassing and is getting bad for their "brand". Not like Mac and his competitive spirit to be the freaking best.

 

[The Management]

Also, one last thing, but can we tell our PP to allow our defensemen to shoot the puck with purpose more often?

Out of the 50 most played defensemen on the PP over the past 3 years, Rielly is among the lowest. So is Barrie. If Gio and Sandin had more minutes on our PP, they too would also be among the lowest. We flat out refuse to use our defensemen on the PP, and we can't even say that it is because "Rielly has a crap shot". Barrie, for example, is 8th in PP points over the last 3 years and is 12th in PP goals with 8th. Clearly doesn't have a crap shot. Giordano is a respectable 25th in goals with 6 and I don't think anyone says he has a poor shot. Both suffer from the same thing as Rielly.

You don't need to shoot to score. You don't need to one-time it or make it a total bomb. Just shoot with purpose, shoot to throw off the other team a little bit, and definitely shoot when it makes sense to shoot. Rielly looked off some good opportunities on the PP and it would help us not constantly cycle around on the PP without getting any shots. And especially with the team we have, we should be strong with entries and in the faceoff dot, so if they do result in the other team getting the puck and clearing/stopping it, then I would rather that than passing it around constantly looking for the perfect shot. Shooting more on defense should make it easier for the forwards to do that going forward.

I didn't see the game last night, but I've noticed this as well. The strategy on the blueline seems to be mostly keeping the puck in and looking for a pass. When the other team collapses, passes start getting intercepted or caught in traffic.

Just let it rip from the point sometimes, boys. Shake it up, spead them out. Maybe you get a rebound, a cycle going, or better again, a goal.

 

[banks]

Everything us fans expected to happen in this game happened. It went exactly according to script.

The Leafs played lazy against an inferior opponent.
Nick Ritchie, the former Leaf, scores a goal.
Vejmelka, yet again, goes into God mode against Toronto.
Starting Kallgren means Keefe is throwing away 2 points.
Muzzin's health issues continue.

I really like this team. I believe they can go far. I'm excited for this season. But even I'm disenchanted with the start to the year. I turned this game off during the 2nd period, and I'm glad I did. There were lots of better things to do with my evening.

 

[Rubyblue]

In my honest opinion the biggest problem with this team is the players believe they run the team/organization, and it shows on the ice. I don't know how else to put it, but they feel like they're at the top of the organization, there's no accountability or standard or no one to answer to. It's like the GM/Coaches are scared to do their jobs because the star players might get upset and leave and I really don't like it.

I could be wrong but that is just how I feel about this team when I see efforts like that. In any other job you have to answer to your superior as to why you're not performing. With these guys there's like a level of entitlement, it's like "wtf you gonna do ? I'll just leave I'm the star" and it looks like the coaching/management staff is all afraid. It's a horrible culture to have and not one you can succeed with. I know we are just 4 games into the season but this is something we've seen over and over again. We need a stronger face in the organization. Whether it's in upper management/coaching/player personnel.

If anyone has seen the documentary on netflix about the redeem team and how everything changed once Kobe got on board, that's pretty much what this team needs. Loads and loads of talent, just no killer instinct, no sense of urgency/purpose and incompetence is accepted.

This team needs an accomplished leader/coach with a strong resume and work ethic who holds his guys accountable, that's been missing for a very long time and IMO is the biggest reason why we see garbage like what he had to watch last night.

SOFT, SOFT, SOFT. Take away their video games. This group that dubass has put together are coach killers. Babcock, gone, Keefe soon to be gone, both for trying to get them to play the game right, like men. Issue isn't coaching, it's the players.

 

[kk87]

Nothing I loathe more than the narrative "can't focus on the no-goal call, the team deserved to lose".

Did we play like garbage? Yes. But we also secured at least one and possibly two points in the last minute, and had them stripped away by an *astonishing* hand pass call. Absolute joke, and I never want to hear anyone justify unacceptable rules/officiating with "the team didn't deserve to win anyway".

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I made a thread before the season started. I suggested we trade Bunting due to his stock being the highest it'll ever be in his career. I don't hate the guy, but he will likely never be a 63 point player again. I know it's early, but he can't be a slow starting disinterested player that's at odds with his coach. He has to step up and be more noticeable. For the sake of his career he can't be an underachiever, and he certainly can't earn a decent contract next season being benched by Keefe.

BTW I should have titled this a Michael Bunting Emergency Meeting.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

SOFT, SOFT, SOFT. Take away their video games. This group that dubass has put together are coach killers. Babcock, gone, Keefe soon to be gone, both for trying to get them to play the game right, like men. Issue isn't coaching, it's the players.

Keefe must be scared shitless. And not just about getting fired.

When Babcock was fired, the media turned him into literal Hitler overnight. He shared a millionaires "work-ethic" list with another millionaire. Oh, the horror. He (get this) YELLED at one of the millionaire athletes he coaches. He YELLED at them.

THE MONSTER!!!!!

What's the media going to do with Keefe? I mean... it's not like he has a "clean" legacy as a young player...

 

[ITM]

Maybe they are in the process of tuning out the coach?

Guess time will tell.

If so, the sell by date on this core has passed.

We need a group that is capable of responding and adapting. From Babcock to Keefe we've had the coaching equivalent of a political spectrum's right and left. If Trotz is available irrespective of where the group is then the time is always going to be NOW to hire him.

Barry Trotz is the failsafe switch this club needs to quickly set about whatever rebuild-retool posture needed. If our core can't play for him, they can't play. And by play we all know what that means: Win one round of the playoffs. And that requires a change.

I've been an apologist from day one. Amongst the first to note the need for patience vis a vis the competition they faced who would later (mostly) win/contend for the Cup.

But as a fan with nigh peerless bona fides (I was born close to their last Cup and have never seen them in the Finals but supported in every way possible without ceasing) I've never been so inclined to tune out my beloved Toronto Maple Leafs; I don't like the organization's distracting, saturated politically correct business culture. I don't like unjustified cost to attend a game; I don't like the damn goal song; And I don't like the lack of battle in a club whose only true identifying mark where success has occurred is the degree to which it sacrifices for one another in battle.

 

[ULF_55]

If they have a leader, they must be missing followers.

Not everyone can lead, you need support/followers for those leaders to be effective.

OTOH, keep this up and re-signing a couple players might be less than expected at the end of this. (Just kidding stat padding will commence in short order).

Matthews won't spend the year with a 4.8% shooting.

And the dumb penalties ... at least make it hard for the refs to call.

 

[Twine Tickler]

we got what we deserved. I said it in the pregame thread yesterday, Sheldon electing to start our 3rd string goalie in place of the goalie who put out 2 straight quality starts when there was no B2B to factor in was the ultimate bulletin board material. You cannot demand better results from your players against weaker opponents and then in the same breath completely disrespect your opponent like that. IMO that call to start Kallgren set the ton for the entire game day.

Exactly what gave Sheldon the confidence to play Kallgren over Sammy yesterday? our opening night loss to 32nd place MTL? or was it our 0-1-1 record against the yotes from last season? Mind numbing decision TBH.

Was Kallgren the reason we lost? I am not too sure. Likely not. But at the end of the day he is a step behind every play. Goal 1 needed a better read, it almost looked as if he didn't even see the puck come off ghostesbere's blade. Which is a bit alarming. He doesn't even react to the Ritchie redirect until it is past him. The puck was post and in, so it's kinda hard to be too critical, but it was also flat on the ice. It's too hard to determine if that one is one he'd want back or not, but at the end of the day we needed a save and didn't get one. Goal 2, was his worst. His positioning on the posts was a technical nightmare. He's neither playing an RVH or VH, which is is exactly what mitigates the risk of these exact jam plays. Goal 3 you could see a mile away. That puck was always going to Ghostesbere, and he never even gave himself a chance. Would have required an exceptional save, but he just never evem came close to giving himself a realistic shot.

Of course the defensive turnovers were the ultimate reason we lost this game, no question about it. But I just think on 18 shots, we cannot be giving up 3 bingos. We need a save.

If Keefe wants to earn some f***ing respect with the team he should be joining that bag skate himself. He took the night off before the puck dropped. Never underestimate your opponent, and absolutely never underestimate your own teams ability to come up short when everything suggests otherwise. How can Sheldon even begin to be critical of the players for not bringing enough, when his coaching decision basically told the entire team that the opponent was not worthy of our best lineup.

reeling it back in for a second. Last season we started very similarly. We started 2-4-1 and our big boys looked like shit. We lost to OTT, SJ and got cock smacked by PIT 7-1. We turned it around very well. So we, including myself, need to just take a deep breath. We need to be better from the top down. Nights like last night absolutely cannot happen going forward.

 

[Koolboss]

Team is missing Kadri.

Wonder what it would take to get him back now.

Dubas on his knees won't even make that possible lol

 

[ULF_55]

...

reeling it back in for a second. Last season we started very similarly. We started 2-4-1 and our big boys looked like shit. We lost to OTT, SJ and got cock smacked by PIT 7-1. We turned it around very well. So we, including myself, need to just take a deep breath. We need to be better from the top down. Nights like last night absolutely cannot happen going forward.

The lack of effort, or at least lack of intelligent effort has been the issue in the four games.

Some weak goals, both ends.

It is early, and maybe their creative juices aren't flowing yet, there hasn't been much if anything (other than Tavares line) that makes you think this is a talent loaded team.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I just find Rielly has been scrambly and unreliable defensively and ineffective offensively. We could have tied it up on his little play at the point but that wouldn't have changed much. He got his raise and he's been much worse than in 2021-22.

I agree he hasn't been great, but I was just pointing out how a small thing can change our perspective.

 

[notbias]

My issue with this mindset is that these games (Arizona, Montreal) are the very kinds of games where this team has historically struggled. Last night--like opening night--was a chance to show their "response" and instead they showed that we probably shouldn't count on anything being different this year.

losing to non-playoff teams in game 4 tells you how they will do in the playoffs?

I'm more worried about what they will do in the second half of the season and how they look, that should tell us more.

Team is missing Kadri.

Wonder what it would take to get him back now.

no thank you