Leafs Goaltending Department

[JT AM da real deal]

On 9 June 2010, Niemi led the Blackhawks to a Stanley Cup championship with a 4–3 overtime win over the Philadelphia Flyers.

Yes and you have a 1 in a multiple million shot to win da lottery too ... odds are much much much greater with an American or Canadian goaler to win a Cup

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I appreciate that. I'm actually in a very unique personal situation here. The Leafs have always been my favorite team, but I cheated a bit by cheering for LA when they acquired Mike Richards (somewhat "local" guy from Kenora). I've followed both teams ever since. Even more so, I've been a huge fan of Campbell ever since his first WJC. As a goalie I fell in love with his style, incredibly athletic and somewhat of a throwback. Not entirely unlike Quick. I was absolutely shocked when he never made the jump to the NHL in Dallas, who were desperate for a quality young goalie. Now when Campbell got sent down to the ECHL Idaho Steelheads in 2016, I was playing for the WSHL's Jr Steelheads. We often practiced before/after the ECHL team, so I got to spend some time watching Campbell practice and got to meet him. Unreal goalie and an unreal person. He was only there a couple months but everyone in that organization had good things to say, right down to the PA announcer.

I was thrilled when LA traded for Campbell that summer. I had already seen them turn Quick, Bernier and Jones into legitimate NHL goalies. If you look at my post history I'm pretty sure I said Campbell would be an NHL starter when LA was done with him. Fast forward and now they've turned Kuemper's career around, in addition to Campbell and Petersen playing phenomenal as well. Needless to say I was even more thrilled when my favorite goalie got traded to my truly favorite team in Toronto.

Apologies for the tangent there, but I've been wanting to tell that story on here. I agree with you 100% on LA, WSH, CBJ and NYI. Absolute goalie factories. Ian Clark in Vancouver (formerly Columbus) is phenomenal too. As is Roland Molanson, who had Markstrom in Vancouver and now Blackwood in New Jersey. I don't have great things to say about St. Croix, another Winnipeg guy who I've dealt with. But at least he has legitimate pro experience as a coach unlike his replacement Briere. It's a damn shame Allaire was let go.

Sparks had talent, I'm not sure how sharp mentally he was but the talent was there. I just hope Woll doesn't get ruined by Briere too. He seems like a solid prospect from a strong USA hockey system

Thank god we have finally moved da needle to an athletic goaler ... you can be both athletic first and then huge like Vasi ... clearly Vasi is on top of da world right now ... but you can also be athletic and 6ft2 like Soupy and be pretty darn good too ... da days of Freddy types monster huge goalers who rely on positioning and technique are coming to an end in a faster game

 

[cannucky]

I been saying that since we got Giggy , we brought the king of "wall up " Mr AllAir in with Giggy and the league promptly shrunk the pads . When that system was at its peak Giggy could butterfly post to post with no 5 hole and a wall 16 inches high or 1 /3 the height of the net , the smaller pads created a 5 hole and forced the goalie to move again plus I believe the width went down an inch or 2 as well and this all meant Giggy became garbage .

 

[napoleon in rags]

this is like an NHL insider article. Thanks for sharing!

Yes, this has been an informative thread. I've really enjoyed it.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

Take a peek at Boston’s Jeremy Swayman or Dan Vladar making steady early progress in the AHL. Not every goalie prospect starts off like an unplayable tire fire.

Woll and swaymans NCAA career is very similar. Looks like swayman played for a better team, whereas woll played for a team that had 4 wins 1 year with him still putting up insane numbers. Vladar was the #2 or #3 goalie available in his draft year. He was highly regarded at draft time.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

Ian Scott on leafs taxi squad as freddy is hurt. Practiced today with leafs. So woll can stay with marlies and Scott can get some practice time in and then join woll on marlies

Finally holy shit.

 

[paulhiggins]

That's exactly what I'm talking about in my above post. This dude is the coaching equivalent to a snake oil salesman. It's embarrassing that he's managed to fool Shanahan for this long

Maybe they can dump him and while they're at it dump Greg Moore. Is Vancouver looking for some coaches?

 

[The Iceman]

Yes and you have a 1 in a multiple million shot to win da lottery too ... odds are much much much greater with an American or Canadian goaler to win a Cup

I think the NA goalie is getting pushed down the depth charts quickly in the NHL.

WHERE ARE ALL THE GOOD YOUNG CANADIAN GOALIES?

Vas in TB is king of the hill
kudobin
Markstrom
Lehner
Rask
2 non NA in Columbus
2 in NYR
2 in Wash
Andersen
Bobrovsky
Varlamov
Halak
Mrazak
Raanta
Rinne
Graubauer
Carolina backup to Reimer is lighting it up

and I am sure to be missing others

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I think the NA goalie is getting pushed down the depth charts quickly in the NHL.

WHERE ARE ALL THE GOOD YOUNG CANADIAN GOALIES?

Vas in TB is king of the hill
kudobin
Markstrom
Lehner
Rask
2 non NA in Columbus
2 in NYR
2 in Wash
Andersen
Bobrovsky
Varlamov
Halak
Mrazak
Raanta
Rinne
Graubauer
Carolina backup to Reimer is lighting it up

and I am sure to be missing others

Yes but only 1 non NA SC winner past 10 years VASI ... these guys just have not learned how to deal with pressure hockey their whole lives and it shows when playoff hockey starts ... Russians a little different as their model is closer to ours from day 1 of learning to skate

 

[cipher]

Dominic Toninato over Connor Hellebuyck looks like a pretty serious whiff as well.

Super serious whiff, just like the 129 whiffs ahead of his selection in the 5th round.

 

[Menzinger]

Funnily enough Toninato probably wasn't that bad of a pick considering the round. He's at least played over 82 NHL games which is a lot more than most of the guys in that round can say

 

[NK94]

Funnily enough Toninato probably wasn't that bad of a pick considering the round. He's at least played over 82 NHL games which is a lot more than most of the guys in that round can say

Unfortunately, 0 of those games were for Toronto.

 

[McSnypsky]

Martin Biron breaks it down as 3 factors, technique, physique and a mental game, which can also be described as a compete/battle personality to make the second or third effort.

That's what I'm kind of wondering, Freddie came here a finished product Briere starts about the same time so what has he done for the Leafs goaltending really? I've been of the opinion that maybe these guys just need another voice or a more veteran leader or something cause even Campbell is essentially a finished product from another system.

 

[Stephen]

What a weird point to make. Who would just keep playing him every game even if he is playing bad? If he keeps playing well then keep playing him.

Nobody needs to make a decision right now that's permanent for the rest of the season. Why would you do that?

That's typical Noodles PC goalie talk...

 

[Stephen]

That's what I'm kind of wondering, Freddie came here a finished product Briere starts about the same time so what has he done for the Leafs goaltending really? I've been of the opinion that maybe these guys just need another voice or a more veteran leader or something cause even Campbell is essentially a finished product from another system.

Just seems like there's some technical development that's missing in the organization and @JKG33 brought up some great insights...

 

[JKG33]

Just seems like there's some technical development that's missing in the organization and @JKG33 brought up some great insights...

Thanks! I'll try to add some more here..

That's what I'm kind of wondering, Freddie came here a finished product Briere starts about the same time so what has he done for the Leafs goaltending really? I've been of the opinion that maybe these guys just need another voice or a more veteran leader or something cause even Campbell is essentially a finished product from another system.

Thats the problem really, Briere has done at best nothing and at worst made the goalies regress. They definitely need some new goalie coaching.

I'll throw in another personal example here. In one of my junior seasons we had a less than ideal goalie coach. I was getting progressively worse as time went on. We had a week off at christmas, so I went home to see my personal coach. I was on the ice almost every day, he fixed my bad habits and corrected what the other coach had done to me. I came back in the new year a brand new goalie, stole the starting job and actually got scouted and called up to a higher level. Its amazing what a difference the right goalie coach can do. Some of it was a lack of confidence, but a lot of it was because I was no longer playing the game I excelled at from a technical standpoint.

By all accounts the Ducks did something right having both Andersen and Gibson dominating the league. I don't think its a stretch to say Freddy's gotten progressively worse each year since his arrival in Toronto. Thats where the coaching (or lack of) is to blame. Campbell went through the same thing early in his career. He was great for the US national team, had maybe a tougher time adjusting to the OHL, and then started off ok in Texas but was eventually left high and dry by the Stars organization. Thankfully LA seen his potential before it was too late, Bill Ranford and Dusty Imoo worked their magic and he became what Dallas expected when they drafted him.

All it takes is getting the right set of eyes on your game, make some minor adjustments and boom you've got a brand new goalie. Thats not even to say some goalie coaches are inherently bad (Although in the case of Briere I can confidently he's terrible), just that different styles of coaching mesh better with different goalies personalities and physical skill sets. The coaches like Ranford who can work with damn near anyone are rare gems.

 

[Kiwi]

Funnily enough Toninato probably wasn't that bad of a pick considering the round. He's at least played over 82 NHL games which is a lot more than most of the guys in that round can say

You can pick guys like that up in free agency every year, for him to be a "good" pick he needs to be a #4-#5D or a middle 6 forward imo

You might as well have got nothing out of that pick even if he was still with the organization

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I think the NA goalie is getting pushed down the depth charts quickly in the NHL.

WHERE ARE ALL THE GOOD YOUNG CANADIAN GOALIES?

Vas in TB is king of the hill
kudobin
Markstrom
Lehner
Rask
2 non NA in Columbus
2 in NYR
2 in Wash
Andersen
Bobrovsky
Varlamov
Halak
Mrazak
Raanta
Rinne
Graubauer
Carolina backup to Reimer is lighting it up

and I am sure to be missing others

Canadian goaltending is a problem. There’s a very clear lull in that department. Price was great but is on the decline, and the next best hope for an elite Canadian goaltender is Carter Hart and he’s stinking up the joint right now in Philadelphia.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Canadian goaltending is a problem. There’s a very clear lull in that department. Price was great but is on the decline, and the next best hope for an elite Canadian goaltender is Carter Hart and he’s stinking up the joint right now in Philadelphia.

I'm not sure where its gone wrong with Canadian goaltending. Doesn't matter what country goalies are coming from, they're all using the same techniques nowadays. They all use the VH, RVH, butterfly etc. The only country that I see using a different technique is Finland who play more of a hybrid game. They use a glove technique called "active glove" which is where their glove is constantly in different positions to throw off shooters ( since most goalies nowadays play a very robotic game) and teaches them to be more reactive as opposed to a guy like Reimer or Murray whose glove barely ever moves. A lot of Finnish goalies play a much more aggressive , athletic game like Rask, Kiprusoff, Rinne, Korpisalo, Saros as opposed to many goalies playing more of a blocking style these days.

I know when it comes to players I've heard that all these Euro countries focus more on individual skills first with youths as opposed to in Canada where I've heard its more team based skills that focuses more on winning as opposed to developing players individual skills. This could be why we are seeing less Canadian players being taken in the 1st round and players from countries like Finland, Sweden and Russia being taken so high. Even countries like Switzerland and Germany are catching up. But again, when it comes to goalies I dont know what Canada is doing wrong. I've seen it myself with goalie coaching in minor hockey, these kids are being taught all these techniques that the pros are now using at such a young age. They're using the same techniques as every one else, yet other countries are surpassing us.

 

[Menzinger]

You can pick guys like that up in free agency every year, for him to be a "good" pick he needs to be a #4-#5D or a middle 6 forward imo

You might as well have got nothing out of that pick even if he was still with the organization

I think it's relative.

Its not a ton of "value" but it's something more than the normal return for a draft pick in that 5-7th round range (which is absolutely nothing). I think there's room between a "good" and "bad" when it comes to evaluating draft picks.

And while you can get replacement level guys in free agency pretty easily, I think there's something positive about a similar player who grew up in the teams development system and may have preexisting relationships with other players in the organization ect.

Like if the Leafs get a 3rd string goalie from a pick in that range id be happy. Though less so if it was a 1st round selection

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I'm not sure where its gone wrong with Canadian goaltending. Doesn't matter what country goalies are coming from, they're all using the same techniques nowadays. They all use the VH, RVH, butterfly etc. The only country that I see using a different technique is Finland who play more of a hybrid game. They use a glove technique called "active glove" which is where their glove is constantly in different positions to throw off shooters ( since most goalies nowadays play a very robotic game) and teaches them to be more reactive as opposed to a guy like Reimer or Murray whose glove barely ever moves. A lot of Finnish goalies play a much more aggressive , athletic game like Rask, Kiprusoff, Rinne, Korpisalo, Saros as opposed to many goalies playing more of a blocking style these days.

I know when it comes to players I've heard that all these Euro countries focus more on individual skills first with youths as opposed to in Canada where I've heard its more team based skills that focuses more on winning as opposed to developing players individual skills. This could be why we are seeing less Canadian players being taken in the 1st round and players from countries like Finland, Sweden and Russia being taken so high. Even countries like Switzerland and Germany are catching up. But again, when it comes to goalies I dont know what Canada is doing wrong. I've seen it myself with goalie coaching in minor hockey, these kids are being taught all these techniques that the pros are now using at such a young age. They're using the same techniques as every one else, yet other countries are surpassing us.

It could be ... who knows ... we will see what da Marlies and Gagner/Tavares do next year ... but today we focus on games and competition from day 1 ... and skill coaches on side, most times outside of team enviro and sometimes within ... it is clearly 2 much different ways of developing players from Euros to G/O ... from what I hear from my Russian hockey friends da russian model is even more extreme than ours where kids are determined special players earlier on and then moved to Moscow away from family and forced even harder to compete against other kids in team environs ... but we are producing less NHL Cup winning goalers than we used to produce and Americans who run a more aggressive team approach, a little closer to Russian model, have started to produce more Cup winners so maybe US and Russian approach is better

 

[Kiwi]

I think it's relative.

Its not a ton of "value" but it's something more than the normal return for a draft pick in that 5-7th round range (which is absolutely nothing). I think there's room between a "good" and "bad" when it comes to evaluating draft picks.

And while you can get replacement level guys in free agency pretty easily, I think there's something positive about a similar player who grew up in the teams development system and may have preexisting relationships with other players in the organization ect.

Like if the Leafs get a 3rd string goalie from a pick in that range id be happy. Though less so if it was a 1st round selection

If you can get it in UFA for league min he hasn't added value either way

Your better off swinging for the fences and getting lucky once every few years than getting a bunch of the other type

 

[Menzinger]

If you can get it in UFA for league min he hasn't added value either way

Your better off swinging for the fences and getting lucky once every few years than getting a bunch of the other type

I don't disagree. I prefer "boom-bust" gambles for every round of the draft. But if worst came.to worst I'd still rather end up with a player than a complete bust

 

[Ricky Bobby]

All the goalies drafted under the Shanahan regime are all quite young. With Woll being the oldest at 22, so it's still too early to say they're ineffective at producing nhl goalies.

That being said, the Leafs haven't developed a decent NHL goaltender since James Reimer, and Felix Potvin before that. So there might be some truth to that statement.

This + goalies simply take a lot longer to develop. Guys from the 2014 or 2015 drafts are only now just really starting to make an NHL impact.

As unpredictable as it is too predict NHL starters, the vast majority of quality starters (platoon level and above) are still drafted in the first few rounds of the draft.

After drafting Reimer in the 4th round in 2006 till 2016 when we drafted Woll in the 3rd round the highest we drafted a goalie was in the 6th round. The previous regimes sure weren't giving us good odds of drafting and developing a starter.

 

[Le Cobra]

The focus of goalie schools in Canada is dropping down into your butterfly in almost every scenario- meaning they are not allowing the goalie to read the play. Committing to going down too soon leaves the goalie vulnerable to a pass or a high shot.

Perhaps that is why the Finnish system focuses on athleticism. So that they play every shot more honestly instead of just going down into the butterfly every single time.

Patrick Roy and Marty Brodeur are legends in part because they employed a hybrid technique meaning they were butterfly and stand up goalies depending on the circumstances. Great thing is Jack Campbell’s play style is very much like those legends of old.