Proposal: Leafs - Canucks , leafs - Bluejackets

[Warh1ppy]

None of those guys are comparable to Liljergen lol. Maybe Pionk at most, but at the time he hadn't broken out and even he got dealt for a non-rental, top 4 RHD in return.


The discussion has never been about Barron at his age versus Timothy Liljergen at 21. It was about Justin Barron at the time he was dealt and Timothy Liljergen now. Why would we care about Liljergen at 21 when the proposal is for Liljergen today?

Of course Lilly's value was lower when he was 21, he didn't establish himself in the NHL and has risk due to that. The reason his value is much higher now is because he has the tools to be a great defenseman and has shown he can implement them very effectively in the NHL in a top 4 role. So the risk of him not panning out has lessened significantly while his upside still remains

Good luck finding a better deal than Liljergen + 1st lmao. And again, promising players get dealt, of course they do. But that is a strawman and not what Leaf fans are saying. It's young, top 4 RHD that do not typically get dealt, and they definitely don't for rentals.

?

Lilly has been a darling for our fanbase since he got into the lineup last year. When him and Giordano became a pair after the TDL he got a lot of praise since they dominated competition (hey, that was later in the season when play is more physical and intense). A lot of people have been expecting his rise lol

The backtracking and shifting of the posts here

Rental trades don't happen for RHD. But they do.

Whatever

 

[leafsfan5]

The backtracking and shifting of the posts here

Rental trades don't happen for RHD. But they do.

Whatever

You don’t seem to understand not all RHD are the same or comparable but whatever, we’re just going to go in circles

Happy holidays

 

[thusk]

Respectfully, if you look at what Barron is doing right now in his career vs what Liljegren was doing at the same age, they are very comparable. Durzi was very similar.

Development is not linear and we do not get to pick and choose who succeeds let alone where and when. If the roles were reversed we'd be having the exact same conversation with a player of a different name.

We can even stretch it a bit further by pointing out that Barron had/has accomplished as much or more than Liljegren had in the NHL by age 21. That Liljegren has only 97 total NHL games to his name thus far and is only 2 games more "accomplished" than the Canucks Podkolzin, 63 more than the Oilers Broberg, 56 more than the Krakens Beniers and 9 less than the Blue Jacket's Sillinger.

Again, I can not stress this enough. I am not advocating a Liljegren trade for Horvat 50% retention and Schenn at all. I feel the Canucks can do comparable or better elsewhere because GMs can not help themselves. What I AM saying to the person I originally responded to; and continue to state is that trades of this nature in which young promising players at ALL positions get traded all the time for rentals. As do 1st round picks and promising prospects.

Suggesting otherwise is just foolish

That doesnt matter if barron and liljegren was similar at same age

Jason and nick robertson had similar number at 20, does it mean than nick is comparable to Jason? No jason is an etablished elite player and nick a player who still fighting to play in NHL. Jason value at 20 and 23 + nick doesn't have the same value than jason and is not even close . It an extreme comparaison to show you of what you telling doesn't make any sense at all...

Liljegren is an etablish top 4 dmen who already playing a huge top 4 role at high level...liljegren level at 23 and 21is not the same, its not even close. He was progressing really fast.

Tell me the last time a team trade an ETABLISH 23 Y/O TOP 4 DMEN for en rental? Never

 

[elitepete]

Would he not be the 2nd best dman on Vancouver?

That might not be saying much but still

No

 

[The Podium]

This is so Leaf fan it’s humorous.
A) I don’t believe Lily gets moved but
B) Late last season Sandin was the future and Lily was forgotten about.
C) Sandin got hurt. Lily started this season with 2 good months (early in the season when play is less physical and intense).
D) Suddenly Sandin is slow and weak while Lily is solid and a proven top 4 with #1 upside.

There has actually been a big debate on the Leafs board for years about who the better prospect/player was/is. A lot of us have preferred Lilly for years.

 

[The Podium]

So many metrics to shift around here. What's your definition of young? Wha if it's a young RHD like Barron who hadn't developed yet but has since the trade was made? There's so many variables for you to sit and pick and choose what justifies a "young top 4 nhl defenseman" but sure, I'll bite.

Ristolainen for Hagg 1st and 2nd. 27 and 26 at the time of the trade
Trouba for Pion and a 1st. Pionk was 24 and a top 4 rhd at the time of the trade
Nick Jensen for Bowey, Bowey was a 24 year old rhd with washington
One of those variables, Muzzin for Durzi, Grundstrom and a 1st. Durzi now a top 4, Muzzin while not a true rental only had 1 year left on his contract (see, these are the variables I was speaking of)

It's actually a shocking amount of promising young defensemen who went for mere picks as opposed to rentals as it was. I could probably go further back but I am drinking a nice scotch right now and am distracted by this tire fire of a hockey game between the kraken and canucks

Haag was a 26 year old bottom pairing D at the time of the deal and Ristolainen had a full year left on his deal.

Pionk is a good example, but was dealt for a D nearly the same age. Trouba was an RFA, not a rental, who signed a long term deal immediate after being dealt.

Madison Bowey was barely an NHLer at the time of that deal…

Durzi wouldn’t play in the NHL for another 2.5 years after the deal and Muzzin had full year + post TDL season on his deal.

So congrats, you gave 4 bad examples

 

[thusk]

This is so Leaf fan it’s humorous.
A) I don’t believe Lily gets moved but
B) Late last season Sandin was the future and Lily was forgotten about.
C) Sandin got hurt. Lily started this season with 2d months (early in the season when play is less physical and intense).
D) Suddenly Sandin is slow and weak while Lily is solid and a proven top 4 with #1 upside.

A)Sandin and liljegren was probably the biggest debate amount leafs fan of who was the best dman for the future...
B) i was not as high than majoritÿ of leafs fan on liljegren last season, but liljegren progression is really huge this defensivly. lilly is 1 of the biggest reason why leafs didn't get hurt by lost of Muzzin, rielly and brodie. Its all about liljegren, sandin, gio and holl who raise quality of their game. Liljegren will never be a #1 but can certainly be a #2 or 3... remember me a lot of anton stralman game.
C) liljegren progression didn't mean sandin is not good

 

[Viqsi]

So, are us Jackets fans still needed for this one? Because at this point it just seems to be a Liljegren argument and we're kind of not part of that so we'd like to know if we get to move on now.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Tell me the last time a team trade an ETABLISH 23 Y/O TOP 4 DMEN for en rental? Never

so congrats, you gave 4 bad examples

Name the last trade that involves a young top 4 NHL defenseman dealt for a rental. I will concede that I am wrong if you can.

So, I called it. Named 3 trades. Stated that you'd pick and choose which metrics or variables you'd pick and choose.

Here we are. I named some. Now you're trying to suggest that these are not or were not young RHD playing regular games (barring durzi who was a specific variable as he showed up after the extension of Muzzin was signed)

And you wanna move those posts again. Look mate, you made the statement in bold. You claimed they don't happen and to show you some.

I did and I called your response.

So many metrics to shift around here. What's your definition of young? Wha if it's a young RHD like Barron who hadn't developed yet but has since the trade was made? There's so many variables for you to sit and pick and choose what justifies a "young top 4 nhl defenseman" but sure, I'll bite.

Ristolainen for Hagg 1st and 2nd. 27 and 26 at the time of the trade
Trouba for Pion and a 1st. Pionk was 24 and a top 4 rhd at the time of the trade
Nick Jensen for Bowey, Bowey was a 24 year old rhd with washington
One of those variables, Muzzin for Durzi, Grundstrom and a 1st. Durzi now a top 4, Muzzin while not a true rental only had 1 year left on his contract (see, these are the variables I was speaking of)

 

[The Podium]

So, I called it. Named 3 trades. Stated that you'd pick and choose which metrics or variables you'd pick and choose.

Here we are. I named some. Now you're trying to suggest that these are not or were not young RHD playing regular games (barring durzi who was a specific variable as he showed up after the extension of Muzzin was signed)

And you wanna move those posts again. Look mate, you made the statement in bold. You claimed they don't happen and to show you some.

I did and I called your response.

Buddy, Trouba and Risto weren’t rentals. Trouba was an RFA ffs. The goal posts have never been moved, you’re just choosing to ignore them.

- Top 4D
- young (<25)
- Traded for a rental

None of the trades you posted meet those criteria.

Not to mention RHD is specifically more valuable, but rare so I won’t include it in the list so you have a fighting chance.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Buddy, Trouba and Risto weren’t rentals. Trouba was an RFA ffs. The goal posts have never been moved, you’re just choosing to ignore them.

- Top 4D
- young (<25)
- Traded for a rental

None of the trades you posted meet those criteria.

Not to mention RHD is specifically more valuable, but rare so I won’t include it in the list so you have a fighting chance.

Ya. No.

I've got better things to do then jump through your shifting hoops.

Happy Holidays. Try to step away and enjoy them

 

[The Podium]

Ya. No.

I've got better things to do then jump through your shifting hoops.

Happy Holidays. Try to step away and enjoy them

My hoops haven’t shifted, you are just conceding that you’re wrong

 

[Warh1ppy]

My hoops haven’t shifted, you are just conceding that you’re wrong

Haven;t conceded anything. Just don't hav time to deal with your petulant need to be right when you made the statement got proven wrong and didn't like it so decided that instead of simply living up to what you said you'd change the variables to suit your argument.

As I said, happy holidays bud. Try to step away and enjoy them.

 

[4thline]

Buddy, Trouba and Risto weren’t rentals. Trouba was an RFA ffs. The goal posts have never been moved, you’re just choosing to ignore them.

- Top 4D
- young (<25)
- Traded for a rental

None of the trades you posted meet those criteria.

Not to mention RHD is specifically more valuable, but rare so I won’t include it in the list so you have a fighting chance.

I can't believe this is even a discussion.

 

[Viqsi]

My hoops haven’t shifted, you are just conceding that you’re wrong

As an uninvolved third party I call bullshit on this attempted tactic.

It is unquestionable and at this point indisputable that such trades can and do happen. There's now documented evidence. Whether or not it makes sense for the Leafs to similarly move Liljegren is a completely separate topic (I for one think they wouldn't and shouldn't).

 

[Contenderorpretender]

Tell us you don't know anything about the Blue Jackets without saying you don't know anything about the Blue Jackets.

They're awesome

 

[4thline]

As an uninvolved third party I call bullshit on this attempted tactic.

It is unquestionable and at this point indisputable that such trades can and do happen. There's now documented evidence. Whether or not it makes sense for the Leafs to similarly move Liljegren is a completely separate topic (I for one think they wouldn't and shouldn't).

Eh. The guy did a piss poor job listing a trades that even came close to the parameters requested. Either the dmen being traded weren't comparable, or the return wasn't a rental. Personally I think think of a rental trade featuring a piece like Liljegren. OP's trade would only make sense if Horvat was coming with a renegotiated extension (and then the Leafs would be adding).

 

[Nucker101]

Why pay premium prices for centers only to stick them at wing?

I guess the flexibility and faceoff wins are nice but still not an efficient way to make trades.

Timo Meier at wing > Bo Horvat at wing

 

[The Podium]

As an uninvolved third party I call bullshit on this attempted tactic.

It is unquestionable and at this point indisputable that such trades can and do happen. There's now documented evidence. Whether or not it makes sense for the Leafs to similarly move Liljegren is a completely separate topic (I for one think they wouldn't and shouldn't).

How? He gave a list of D traded not for rentals….

 

[Viqsi]

How? He gave a list of D traded not for rentals….

Except for the part where those deals involved guys approaching UFA and so would similarly qualify as potential/probable "rentals" the same way Horvat might.

 

[The Podium]

Except for the part where those deals involved guys approaching UFA and so would similarly qualify as potential/probable "rentals" the same way Horvat might.

3 things I mentioned
1. Young (<25)
2. Top 4
3. Traded for a rental (mid season/TDL)

His “examples”
1. Trouba was an RFA
2. Hagg was 26 years old (not young) bottom pairing D (not top 4) dealt for Risto before the season who had 1 full year left on his deal (not a rental)
3. Durzi didn’t play his 1st nhl game for 2.5 years (not an NHLer Nevermind top 4) traded for Muzzin who had 1.5 years remaining (not a rental)

 

[Viqsi]

1. Trouba was an RFA
2. Hagg was 26 years old (not young) bottom pairing D (not top 4) dealt for Risto before the season who had 1 full year left on his deal (not a rental)
3. Durzi didn’t play his 1st nhl game for 2.5 years (not an NHLer Nevermind top 4) traded for Muzzin who had 1.5 years remaining (not a rental)

You're looking at the wrong blueliner in the first two cases, ignored a third case, and your rebuttal for the fourth case was acknowledged upfront as an uncertainty as regards what you would find acceptable.

EDIT: And w/r/t your ninja edit of those three requirements, you didn't give those until after examples were given.

It's an absurd thing to be arguing in any case. Whether or not said trades can and do happen has zero to do with whether or not the Leafs should consider it with Liljegren.

 

[The Podium]

You're looking at the wrong blueliner in the first two cases, ignored a third case, and your rebuttal for the fourth case was acknowledged upfront as an uncertainty as regards what you would find acceptable.

There are players on either side of the deal

- Pionk was comparable to Liljegren, but Trouba was an RFA, not a pending UFA like Horvat
- Hagg was older and worse than liljregren, traded for Risto who had a full year on his deal, not a pending UFA like Horvat
- Madison Bowey and Nick Jensen aren’t even worth mentioning

 

[Viqsi]

There are players on either side of the deal

- Pionk was comparable to Liljegren, but Trouba was an RFA, not a pending UFA like Horvat
- Hagg was older and worse than liljregren, traded for Risto who had a full year on his deal, not a pending UFA like Horvat
- Madison Bowey and Nick Jensen aren’t even worth mentioning

Reiterating, since you seem to have missed it:

It's an absurd thing to be arguing in any case. Whether or not said trades can and do happen has zero to do with whether or not the Leafs should consider it with Liljegren.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

I think that would be a pretty good return for Vancouver. But doubt CBJ parts with Jenner.