Proposal: Leafs - Canucks , leafs - Bluejackets

[Warh1ppy]

Anyone suggesting that a 50% retained Horvat AND a Schenn who would be currently $540,000 is not worth a middle of the road 3/4 RHD who up until this year was debated in a number of trade proposals as an addition not a cornerstone is a team fan first hockey fan second

Just about every single team in the league would send over a young middle of the road rhd for that for a playoff run. If some people think he's not expendable than that's fine, but suggestions like that are kind of just silly

 

[The Podium]

Anyone suggesting that a 50% retained Horvat AND a Schenn who would be currently $540,000 is not worth a middle of the road 3/4 RHD who up until this year was debated in a number of trade proposals as an addition not a cornerstone is a team fan first hockey fan second

Just about every single team in the league would send over a young middle of the road rhd for that for a playoff run. If some people think he's not expendable than that's fine, but suggestions like that are kind of just silly

He’s a 23 year old top 4 RHD with potential…. There literally isn’t many of those in the league. Not a single one would be dealt for a rental.

 

[Warh1ppy]

He’s a 23 year old top 4 RHD with potential…. There literally isn’t many of those in the league. Not a single one would be dealt for a rental.

Literally Arturi Lehkonen last year for Justin Barron and they even got a pick included for it.

But ok.

 

[The Podium]

Literally Arturi Lehkonen last year for Justin Barron and they even got a pick included for it.

But ok.

Justin Barron wasn’t succeeding in top 4 minutes for one of the best defensive teams in the league. He still hasn’t made the NHL for a non-playoff team.

But ok.

 

[Viqsi]

This is dramatic. It’s true that rebuilding teams should value experience to insulate their young guys during a rebuild, but you’re kidding yourself if you think Columbus wouldn’t trade Jenner for the right deal.

They would, but "the right deal" is an overpayment so egregious as to be not really worth discussing. Most notably, we would need, as part of the return, a replacement for the role Jenner occupies at a similar AAV. That's damn near impossible to find; Toronto would probably have to start with a double-retained Tavares. (No, I'm not kidding; put them alongside similarly talented players and their production levels nowadays are within 0.1ppg of eachother.) Obviously that's not even approximating something reasonable for Toronto to consider.

Maybe this isn’t the right deal, but get off your high horse if you think that only Columbus fans are qualified to make trade proposals for Columbus.

Make trade proposals? No. Speak authoritatively as to the state of the team and/or the team's priorities? Yes, because the simple truth is that nobody else ever bothers to research or learn a damn thing about Columbus - national media pundits explicitly included - and so they're disqualified by way of crippling ignorance.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Justin Barron wasn’t succeeding in top 4 minutes for one of the best defensive teams in the league. He still hasn’t made the NHL for a non-playoff team.

You're moving the goalposts my dude.

There's a history of players exactly like you claim that have been traded numerous times over the last few years, decade whatever.

Barron is a large smooth skating 21 year old RHD with potential. He was traded along with a 2nd round pick for a rental. That's it. That's all.

 

[leafsfan5]

You're moving the goalposts my dude.

There's a history of players exactly like you claim that have been traded numerous times over the last few years, decade whatever.

Barron is a large smooth skating 21 year old RHD with potential. He was traded along with a 2nd round pick for a rental. That's it. That's all.

The goalposts haven't been changed

Liljergen is a top 4 RHD, Barron is not that nor was he at the time of his trade. They are not comparable

 

[AvroArrow]

You're moving the goalposts my dude.

There's a history of players exactly like you claim that have been traded numerous times over the last few years, decade whatever.

Barron is a large smooth skating 21 year old RHD with potential. He was traded along with a 2nd round pick for a rental. That's it. That's all.

Your understanding of who Liljegren is as a player is just highly inaccurate, that's all it really is.

 

[Viqsi]

You're moving the goalposts my dude.

There's a history of players exactly like you claim that have been traded numerous times over the last few years, decade whatever.

Barron is a large smooth skating 21 year old RHD with potential. He was traded along with a 2nd round pick for a rental. That's it. That's all.

Or maybe Liljegren has shown sudden improvement of late. I wouldn't know as I haven't been watching the Leafs lately, but such a thing isn't exactly unprecedented and it would certainly explain the reactions of Leafs fans here.

 

[McSuper]

Arguable. Lilly is pretty freaking solid man. And it’s only going to get better.

This is what I thought so I can not understand why a Toronto fan would give him up. TML have be very good defensively this year, not sure they need to add a D.

One day Leafs proposals won’t include Kerfoot… one day

Many a year from now when Kerfoot is retired or playing for another team.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Or maybe Liljegren has shown sudden improvement of late. I wouldn't know as I haven't been watching the Leafs lately, but such a thing isn't exactly unprecedented and it would certainly explain the reactions of Leafs fans here.

See that's reasonable.

Which is why I stated it he has that value to the team that's fine don't trade him.

But to suggest that the proposed trade isn't worth a middle of the road 3/4 defenseman is a bit farcical

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

Liljegren played well last year, this year he's been fantastic. He aabsolutely has the potential to be a strong number 2 and if his progression is any indication it looks like he may very well reach that potential. A strong 2 way Rhd on the top pair is how the Leafs value Liljegren because we believe he will get there in a season or two based on his play and progression. Currently he is a 23 year old top 4 RHD who is on par with Brodie and Giordano defensively, who hasn't gotten pp time to boost his numbers. Players like him rarely if ever get traded for a rental.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Liljegren is 23. I'd say go for it as a VAN fan. Would move Engvall immediately to another team as a rental to get another future asset.

no one is giving an asset for engvall.

 

[leafsfan5]

See that's reasonable.

Which is why I stated it he has that value to the team that's fine don't trade him.

But to suggest that the proposed trade isn't worth a middle of the road 3/4 defenseman is a bit farcical

You’re still not getting the point lol

He’s not some middle of the road defenseman. He’s a 23 year old who has room to grow and has already shown he can excel in top 4 deployment. That’s why people have an issue with the deal

Liljergen has all the tools you want out of a modern defenseman. Smooth skater, excellent first pass, good defensively, surprisingly strong

 

[Warh1ppy]

The goalposts haven't been changed

Liljergen is a top 4 RHD, Barron is not that nor was he at the time of his trade. They are not comparable

I'm looking at Liljegren and Barron side by side in their affiliates and they look incredibly similar.

But again. Ok.

If you have no interest in trading him fine. But making absolute statements about players not getting traded is rather short sighted.

You’re still not getting the point lol

He’s not some middle of the road defenseman. He’s a 23 year old who has room to grow and has already shown he can excel in top 4 deployment. That’s why people have an issue with the deal

Liljergen has all the tools you want out of a modern defenseman. Smooth skater, excellent first pass, good defensively, surprisingly strong

He's a top 4 rhd which is stated numerous times in this very thread. Literally by yourself. That's literally middle of the road.

He has all the tools to be better which is fine. But if you don't want to trade him fine, dont.

But don't claim these trades don't happen when they in fact do frequently.

 

[The Podium]

You're moving the goalposts my dude.

There's a history of players exactly like you claim that have been traded numerous times over the last few years, decade whatever.

Barron is a large smooth skating 21 year old RHD with potential. He was traded along with a 2nd round pick for a rental. That's it. That's all.

How am I moving goalposts. I said 23 year old top 4 D. Barron never even really played in the league, nevermind in a top 4 capacity.

 

[Warh1ppy]

How am I moving goalposts. I said 23 year old top 4 D. Barron never even really played in the league, nevermind in a top 4 capacity.

You said these trades don't happen for rentals

Except they do.

You called Liljegren a top 4 defenseman then said he wasn't middle of the road

Look mate, we're not gonna agree here which is fine. You don't wanna see Liljegren traded that's cool. Not advocating trading him. Just saying outright that trades involving young players rostered or developing happen all the time for rentals

 

[The Podium]

You said these trades don't happen for rentals

Except they do.

You called Liljegren a top 4 defenseman then said he wasn't middle of the road

Look mate, we're not gonna agree here which is fine. You don't wanna see Liljegren traded that's cool. Not advocating trading him. Just saying outright that trades involving young players rostered or developing happen all the time for rentals

Not young players in valuable positions who are performing.

You’re just wrong.

Name the last trade that involves a young top 4 NHL defenseman dealt for a rental. I will concede that I am wrong if you can.

 

[I am Canadian]

Leafs would decline Liljegren for Horvat straight up for obvious reasons, let alone the draft picks.

CBJ I see no reason for them to trade their captain. Niemela is a good young prospect & a late first is a late first but they need to surround their young players with the right vets.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Canucks say no

Laughable for both Vancouver and Columbus

Y'all obviously don't watch the Leafs because Liljegren is the Canucks #1 dman

 

[thusk]

You're moving the goalposts my dude.

There's a history of players exactly like you claim that have been traded numerous times over the last few years, decade whatever.

Barron is a large smooth skating 21 year old RHD with potential. He was traded along with a 2nd round pick for a rental. That's it. That's all.

Barron is a 21 PROSPECT with a potential to be rugular dman in the NHL and maybe more if his progession is good...but still a project and no body can tell he will be a full time dman in NHL

Liljegren is a 23 etablish dman who already playing a top 4 role in the NH and dont have any doubt remaining ( if hes not already a top 4 dman), he will certainly become in the next year or 2 and with potential of top pairing dman

If you dont see any difference between both, personally i see a huge one.

 

[Space umpire]

This is so Leaf fan it’s humorous.
A) I don’t believe Lily gets moved but
B) Late last season Sandin was the future and Lily was forgotten about.
C) Sandin got hurt. Lily started this season with 2 good months (early in the season when play is less physical and intense).
D) Suddenly Sandin is slow and weak while Lily is solid and a proven top 4 with #1 upside.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Not young players in valuable positions who are performing.

You’re just wrong.

Name the last trade that involves a young top 4 NHL defenseman dealt for a rental. I will concede that I am wrong if you can.

So many metrics to shift around here. What's your definition of young? Wha if it's a young RHD like Barron who hadn't developed yet but has since the trade was made? There's so many variables for you to sit and pick and choose what justifies a "young top 4 nhl defenseman" but sure, I'll bite.

Ristolainen for Hagg 1st and 2nd. 27 and 26 at the time of the trade
Trouba for Pion and a 1st. Pionk was 24 and a top 4 rhd at the time of the trade
Nick Jensen for Bowey, Bowey was a 24 year old rhd with washington
One of those variables, Muzzin for Durzi, Grundstrom and a 1st. Durzi now a top 4, Muzzin while not a true rental only had 1 year left on his contract (see, these are the variables I was speaking of)

It's actually a shocking amount of promising young defensemen who went for mere picks as opposed to rentals as it was. I could probably go further back but I am drinking a nice scotch right now and am distracted by this tire fire of a hockey game between the kraken and canucks

 

[Warh1ppy]

Barron is a 21 PROSPECT with a potential to be rugular dman in the NHL and maybe more if his progession is good...but still a project and no body can tell he will be a full time dman in NHL

Liljegren is a 23 etablish dman who already playing a top 4 role in the NH and dont have any doubt remaining ( if hes not already a top 4 dman), he will certainly become in the next year or 2 and with potential of top pairing dman

If you dont see any difference between both, personally i see a huge one.

Respectfully, if you look at what Barron is doing right now in his career vs what Liljegren was doing at the same age, they are very comparable. Durzi was very similar.

Development is not linear and we do not get to pick and choose who succeeds let alone where and when. If the roles were reversed we'd be having the exact same conversation with a player of a different name.

We can even stretch it a bit further by pointing out that Barron had/has accomplished as much or more than Liljegren had in the NHL by age 21. That Liljegren has only 97 total NHL games to his name thus far and is only 2 games more "accomplished" than the Canucks Podkolzin, 63 more than the Oilers Broberg, 56 more than the Krakens Beniers and 9 less than the Blue Jacket's Sillinger.

Again, I can not stress this enough. I am not advocating a Liljegren trade for Horvat 50% retention and Schenn at all. I feel the Canucks can do comparable or better elsewhere because GMs can not help themselves. What I AM saying to the person I originally responded to; and continue to state is that trades of this nature in which young promising players at ALL positions get traded all the time for rentals. As do 1st round picks and promising prospects.

Suggesting otherwise is just foolish

 

[leafsfan5]

So many metrics to shift around here. What's your definition of young? Wha if it's a young RHD like Barron who hadn't developed yet but has since the trade was made? There's so many variables for you to sit and pick and choose what justifies a "young top 4 nhl defenseman" but sure, I'll bite.

Ristolainen for Hagg 1st and 2nd. 27 and 26 at the time of the trade
Trouba for Pion and a 1st. Pionk was 24 and a top 4 rhd at the time of the trade
Nick Jensen for Bowey, Bowey was a 24 year old rhd with washington
One of those variables, Muzzin for Durzi, Grundstrom and a 1st. Durzi now a top 4, Muzzin while not a true rental only had 1 year left on his contract (see, these are the variables I was speaking of)

It's actually a shocking amount of promising young defensemen who went for mere picks as opposed to rentals as it was. I could probably go further back but I am drinking a nice scotch right now and am distracted by this tire fire of a hockey game between the kraken and canucks

None of those guys are comparable to Liljergen lol. Maybe Pionk at most, but at the time he hadn't broken out and even he got dealt for a non-rental, top 4 RHD in return.

Respectfully, if you look at what Barron is doing right now in his career vs what Liljegren was doing at the same age, they are very comparable. Durzi was very similar.

Development is not linear and we do not get to pick and choose who succeeds let alone where and when. If the roles were reversed we'd be having the exact same conversation with a player of a different name.

We can even stretch it a bit further by pointing out that Barron had/has accomplished as much or more than Liljegren had in the NHL by age 21. That Liljegren has only 97 total NHL games to his name thus far and is only 2 games more "accomplished" than the Canucks Podkolzin, 63 more than the Oilers Broberg, 56 more than the Krakens Beniers and 9 less than the Blue Jacket's Sillinger.

Again, I can not stress this enough. I am not advocating a Liljegren trade for Horvat 50% retention and Schenn at all. I feel the Canucks can do comparable or better elsewhere because GMs can not help themselves. What I AM saying to the person I originally responded to; and continue to state is that trades of this nature in which young promising players at ALL positions get traded all the time for rentals. As do 1st round picks and promising prospects.

Suggesting otherwise is just foolish

The discussion has never been about Barron at his age versus Timothy Liljergen at 21. It was about Justin Barron at the time he was dealt and Timothy Liljergen now. Why would we care about Liljergen at 21 when the proposal is for Liljergen today?

Of course Lilly's value was lower when he was 21, he didn't establish himself in the NHL and has risk due to that. The reason his value is much higher now is because he has the tools to be a great defenseman and has shown he can implement them very effectively in the NHL in a top 4 role. So the risk of him not panning out has lessened significantly while his upside still remains

Good luck finding a better deal than Liljergen + 1st lmao. And again, promising players get dealt, of course they do. But that is a strawman and not what Leaf fans are saying. It's young, top 4 RHD that do not typically get dealt, and they definitely don't for rentals.

This is so Leaf fan it’s humorous.
A) I don’t believe Lily gets moved but
B) Late last season Sandin was the future and Lily was forgotten about.
C) Sandin got hurt. Lily started this season with 2 good months (early in the season when play is less physical and intense).
D) Suddenly Sandin is slow and weak while Lily is solid and a proven top 4 with #1 upside.

?

Lilly has been a darling for our fanbase since he got into the lineup last year. When him and Giordano became a pair after the TDL he got a lot of praise since they dominated competition (hey, that was later in the season when play is more physical and intense). A lot of people have been expecting his rise lol