Leafs announce promotions and new goalie coach

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It is so obvious.



A bunch of playoff disappointment with this rookie GM and the rookie GM before that was JFJ. I don't know why you'd ever hire a rookie GM again lol.

what exactly did Brian Burke or Dave Nonis or Lou Lamorello accomplish here? It's not a Rookie vs Veteran thing.

Also if Richard Peddie's dumbass would have just listened to JFJ we wouldn't have had a shit show. JFJ wanted to rebuild. Peddie and MLSE wanted to compete and forced a bunch of moves and trades during JFJ's time.
 
what exactly did Brian Burke or Dave Nonis or Lou Lamorello accomplish here? It's not a Rookie vs Veteran thing.

Also if Richard Peddie's dumbass would have just listened to JFJ we wouldn't have had a shit show. JFJ wanted to rebuild. Peddie and MLSE wanted to compete and forced a bunch of moves and trades during JFJ's time.

How many GM jobs has JFJ had since?

Lou actually had set the table pretty decently for Dubas, Dubas just chose to sink *all* of his cap space into Tavares. Granted, Dubas had no way of foreseeing a global pandemic would take place, he just never pivoted off his initial design for this team.

Lou era drafted Matthews and Liljegren for Dubas as well.

Nonis went as far as Dubas has in the playoffs if that makes you feel any better. Burke overpromised and underdelivered.
 
I don't know anything about Haleys player assessment or negotiating abilities, but with all due respect to Gretzky and Lemieux, she was the most dominant, Will-To-Win hockey player I've witnessed.

Hopefully it translates into the Front Office.
 
what exactly did Brian Burke or Dave Nonis or Lou Lamorello accomplish here? It's not a Rookie vs Veteran thing.

Also if Richard Peddie's dumbass would have just listened to JFJ we wouldn't have had a shit show. JFJ wanted to rebuild. Peddie and MLSE wanted to compete and forced a bunch of moves and trades during JFJ's time.

In this case Shanny listened to the rookie GM who thought he could win with skill. Clearly his vision has been wrong 4 years in a row but let's run it back. I don't know what you think of Kevin Weekes but have a listen to what he thinks on today's Kyper podcast. Just another one of the many with the same criticism of the team, yet stubborn Shanny/Dubas are going to shove it down our throats until it works and they can say "see I told you so" or MLSEL puts an end to this charade.
 
How many GM jobs has JFJ had since?

Lou actually had set the table pretty decently for Dubas, Dubas just chose to sink *all* of his cap space into Tavares. Granted, Dubas had no way of foreseeing a global pandemic would take place, he just never pivoted off his initial design for this team.

Lou era drafted Matthews and Liljegren for Dubas as well.

Nonis went as far as Dubas has in the playoffs if that makes you feel any better. Burke overpromised and underdelivered.

lol JFJ is the biggest scape goat in sports history. He got blackballed for bad trades that ownership cornered him into. I'm not saying he's a good GM. But ownership forced him to acquire some stupid big names and signed off on him overpaying for players past their primes. They forced him to acquire a goalie and pay a premium not ONCE BUT TWICE, even though we had two good options in Junior and Europe (Raycroft and Toskala)

WOOOOO Lets f***ing clap for Lou for not f***ing up a very obvious pick. I'll give him credit for Liljegren.

Nonis drafted Gauthier in the first round instead of SHEA Theodore or Andre Burokovsky, JT Compher, Tyler Bertuzzi. Just a huge fck up.

Burke may be my favourite from the group of three. He at least had the balls to make moves, but he set this franchise back so many years and for what?

In this case Shanny listened to the rookie GM who thought he could win with skill. Clearly his vision has been wrong 4 years in a row but let's run it back. I don't know what you think of Kevin Weekes but have a listen to what he thinks on today's Kyper podcast. Just another one of the many with the same criticism of the team, yet stubborn Shanny/Dubas are going to shove it down our throats until it works and they can say "see I told you so" or MLSEL puts an end to this charade.

Both were wrong, Peddie should have listened to JFJ and rebuilt the team in that instance and Shanny should have kept Lou or went with a more veteran GM in 2018 or at least be more hands on if Dubas was his choice.. Both situations are different and not mutually exclusive to one another.
 
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Abbotsford Canucks goalie coach Curtis Sanford hired by Toronto Maple Leafs

"Sanford, 42, was hired in 2017 by the Canucks and served as a goaltending consultant with a heavy focus on the Utica Comets until joining the Abbotsford Canucks as a full time goaltending coach this past season.

Sanford was instrumental in identifying Spencer Martin as a trade target for the Canucks while watching him play with the Syracuse Crunch, and later, in developing Martin from a third-string AHL goaltender into an NHL backup."
Thank you!

I was hoping they would flex their financial advantage and hire someone with a longer track record but this sounds not bad.

I was surprised when I heard that Sean Burke was hired by Vegas as director of goaltending because I thought he was looking for a GM job. He is generally very highly respected and when I saw the news that he got another Director of Goaltending job and not a GM or AGM job it felt like a missed opportunity. The Leafs have been neglecting the goaltending department for a long time.
 
Sakic, Brisebois, Yzerman all rookie GMs.

Yeah and they all enjoyed significantly more success than Dubas has in the same time frame.

Imagine if Colorado actually hired Dubas as GM? Likely not raising the cup right now.

lol JFJ is the biggest scape goat in sports history. He got blackballed for bad trades that ownership cornered him into. I'm not saying he's a good GM. But ownership forced him to acquire some stupid big names and signed off on him overpaying for players past their primes. They forced him to acquire a goalie and pay a premium not ONCE BUT TWICE, even though we had two good options in Junior and Europe (Raycroft and Toskala)

WOOOOO Lets f***ing clap for Lou for not f***ing up a very obvious pick. I'll give him credit for Liljegren.

Nonis drafted Gauthier in the first round instead of SHEA Theodore or Andre Burokovsky, JT Compher, Tyler Bertuzzi. Just a huge fck up.

Burke may be my favourite from the group of three. He at least had the balls to make moves, but he set this franchise back so many years and for what?

Burke was bad at drafting and even the Kessel acquisition doesn't make sense, he could have offer sheeted a 1st, 2nd and 3rd but chose to give an extra 1st. Percy and Biggs are rough too.

I didn't like Nonis much, the Bolland add and Gauthier pick were highly questionable.

I don't know who to credit for Marner...Lou hadn't come on yet 100%....I guess Hunter as the guy that pushed hardest?

Nonis was GM for Nylander.

Burke did fantastic on trades, bad at drafting and UFA kinda blew up in his face.

Despite Nonis making the playoffs instead of Burke, it just seemed like a lot of mediocrity under him.

Lou, we were a team on the rise, his extensions were all solid with Andersen, Hyman, Brown etc. I wish he got the chance at Nylander, Matthews and Marner.

We're constantly bargain bin hunting under Dubas because we're right up against the cap.
 
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what exactly did Brian Burke or Dave Nonis or Lou Lamorello accomplish here? It's not a Rookie vs Veteran thing.

Also if Richard Peddie's dumbass would have just listened to JFJ we wouldn't have had a shit show. JFJ wanted to rebuild. Peddie and MLSE wanted to compete and forced a bunch of moves and trades during JFJ's time.
Jfj only wanted to rebuild after he screwed up the retool .
 
Yeah and they all enjoyed significantly more success than Dubas has in the same time frame.

That's the point. Rookie GMs can be successful. If Dubas was fired tomorrow the Leafs shouldn't exclude 1st time GMs in their search for a replacement.

And at what point is Dubas not a "rookie" anymore?
 
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Experience in the industry is a bona fide sign of knowledge to perform one's work, far greater than title.

Except it’s not.

Again, none of us have any knowledge of how each performs within their given roles. So, not one of us here is in a position to assess accurately who is the most qualified for their job.

Most experienced sure, but not most qualified. There is a lot more to qualification than just experience.
 
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Except it’s not.

Again, none of us have any knowledge of how each performs within their given roles. So, not one of us here is in a position to assess accurately who is the most qualified for their job.

Most experienced sure, but not most qualified. There is a lot more to qualification than just experience.

Well that would make hockey a complete anomaly in the world of organizational behaviour, which I don't believe it to be.

We can agree to disagree, but I have yet to see an organization that doesn't view industrial & tacit knowledge as being the most critical elements to job performance. I've worked for companies including IT, Software Development, Automotive Manufacturing, Furniture Manufacturing, and Insurance in establishing organizational structure, capacity, and planning. I've also worked, as an intern on the business end, for an OHL team as well as as a scout & marketing consultant for a USHL team.

There are common threads that run through all organizations, regardless of their product.
 
Well that would make hockey a complete anomaly in the world of organizational behaviour, which I don't believe it to be.

We can agree to disagree, but I have yet to see an organization that doesn't view industrial & tacit knowledge as being the most critical elements to job performance. I've worked for companies including IT, Software Development, Automotive Manufacturing, Furniture Manufacturing, and Insurance in establishing organizational structure, capacity, and planning. I've also worked, as an intern on the business end, for an OHL team as well as as a scout & marketing consultant for a USHL team.

There are common threads that run through all organizations, regardless of their product.

No, hockey and every other industry, understand that experience is just a part of what makes up employee qualifications.

Who said it’s not critical? Obviously experience is highly desirable, and is the key metric used for hiring, but once in a role it has nothing to do with core competency and job performance.
 
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Experience in the industry is a bona fide sign of knowledge to perform one's work, far greater than title.

Wickenheiser has been in hockey full-time since 1998, playing at the National Team level. During that time, she play on the WNT, played in USports, played in third-division Finnish Men's league, and also has been involved with the Leafs organization since 2018 (5 years now) in an executive role.

Hardy was 13 when Wickenheiser was playing internationally. He never played at a high level, but was involved in the junior game w/ the US-NTDP, scouted with the Bruins for a couple of years, before GMing the Steel and moving into the Leafs organization barely a year ago.

Metcalf never played, and was 12 when Wickenheiser was playing internationally. His degree is in Chemical Engineering. He became an Analyst in 2014/2015, and became a Director of Analytics in in 2017-2018 before Special Assistant to the GM in 2019-2020. Total of 8 years in the game period.

You're really going to make the case that these two are on the same level as Wickenheiser?

I think we need more actual high level veterans of the game like Wickenheiser as opposed to the other guys… championship insights are championship insights and we need that experience at all levels.

My one big criticism of the Dubas regime is his brand is the young disruptor in the early 2010s game, but along the way it seems like he’s both trying to reinvent the wheel and learn how to build a wheel at the same time.

We already have the unique skilled talent. Now it’s up to people like Wickenheiser and hopefully other veterans of the sport who can tell guys like Dubas and his underlings what the best third and fourth line support and bottom pairing defense the Leafs need. Basically how to build a conventional team around the edges.
 
Promotions for everybody a MLSEL. Congratulations to all. Hope you enjoyed watching the Avs and Kadri spherically hoisting the Cup. And BTW, you can all kiss his ass.
 
Sorry should have clarified. He was in Tampa, just referring to how he was a big part of building that team.

Yzerman and Sakic have hockey street cred as former players and winners. They can replicate the teams that best resembled the ones they played on. In an alternate universe, Shanahan is the one in the GM trenches building the Leafs the way he succeeded playing the sport.
 
No, hockey and every other industry, understand that experience is just a part of what makes up employee qualifications.

Who said it’s not critical? Obviously experience is highly desirable, and is the key metric used for hiring, but once in a role it has nothing to do with core competency and job performance.

The idea that experience, once in a role, has nothing to do with core competency or job performance is utterly absurd, and my the almighty help any organization who disagrees.

I've included a chart called the Four Stages of Competency. It's literally the bedrock of how you develop high performing teams, and is about 95% driven by experience and repetition of tasks performed & experiences lived. People with higher levels of experience are able to understand multiple stakeholders, internal and external influences, as well as downstream effects of every decision at a vastly higher level. It's not even debatable.

1*wQz9hug8PWf2ke0eqE3-yg.jpeg
 
I think we need more actual high level veterans of the game like Wickenheiser as opposed to the other guys… championship insights are championship insights and we need that experience at all levels.

My one big criticism of the Dubas regime is his brand is the young disruptor in the early 2010s game, but along the way it seems like he’s both trying to reinvent the wheel and learn how to build a wheel at the same time.

We already have the unique skilled talent. Now it’s up to people like Wickenheiser and hopefully other veterans of the sport who can tell guys like Dubas and his underlings what the best third and fourth line support and bottom pairing defense the Leafs need. Basically how to build a conventional team around the edges.

I fully agree with this statement. New voices and opinions are great assets, but when the leader is young himself, I question his ability to fully extract value from those voices.

From my assessment, his experiment (thus far) has been an abject failure. Lots of money spent, great regular season success but still no playoff (though I give some credit for the TBL loss, but we're going to be a worse team next year).

He seems to be willing to go out on his shield on his top four (accidental five?) model, which hey, admire the commitment, but he's ignored some of the external factors that go into extrapolating models from more successful teams. When you can have Stamkos, Kucherov, Point, Hedman and Vasilevsky all making below market value because of a favourable state tax rate, you can't rebuild that model when you're paying out an additional 10-15% of your cap space to make it happen.

He's tried to play the analytics/puck-possession game, which I think has it's place, but he's put too many eggs in that basket. You can only put those guys on for 20 minutes a game, so hoping the rest of the squad can carry the load is a big ask when you're not given the same amount of talent depth.
 
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The idea that experience, once in a role, has nothing to do with core competency or job performance is utterly absurd, and my the almighty help any organization who disagrees.

I've included a chart called the Four Stages of Competency. It's literally the bedrock of how you develop high performing teams, and is about 95% driven by experience and repetition of tasks performed & experiences lived. People with higher levels of experience are able to understand multiple stakeholders, internal and external influences, as well as downstream effects of every decision at a vastly higher level. It's not even debatable.

1*wQz9hug8PWf2ke0eqE3-yg.jpeg

I feel like you’re purposely missing the point of what I said. I’m not saying there is no value to experience in the role, just that someone else with less experience can definitely not only meet but pass your level of competency because experience isn’t the most important factor.

You make it sound like all experience is directly transferable. Most of the experience you tout for Wickenheiser over the other two in this scenario has nothing to do with her current tasks and responsibilities and thus there is some limitation in It’s value.
 
I feel like you’re purposely missing the point of what I said. I’m not saying there is no value to experience in the role, just that someone else with less experience can definitely not only meet but pass your level of competency because experience isn’t the most important factor.

You make it sound like all experience is directly transferable. Most of the experience you tout for Wickenheiser over the other two in this scenario has nothing to do with her current tasks and responsibilities and thus there is some limitation in It’s value.

Industrial experience is nearly seamlessly transferable in almost all cases; I took what I learned working for Toyota, and directly extrapolated out a lot of those practices into working for an office furniture manufacturer, vastly different in scope but key elements remain the same (and actually, allowed me to remodel some of their structure to better handle issues they hadn't anticipated - for example, I implemented a more refined Kanban system, which you can Google rather than explain on a hockey forum).

People can, over time, overtake another person with more experience through the law of declining of returns and the overall cycle of age vs. productivity (but that's a whole different conversation), but one thing that cannot happen unless you trip and fall into an absolute genius/prodigy/outlier is have someone exceed that person without the same experience (this is actually very common in family run businesses).

I do think, though, that we've bifurcated the discussion - one about Wickenheiser deserving her own promotion aside from the rest, and the other being her qualifications as an AGM and if the group has been promoted on the same basis/merit.

As to the first, I submit that even through base history, Wickenheiser has done more than any of the others, and it's not even close particular to her role.

As to the second, I think Wickenheiser is deserving of an AGM role, but I debate the others - as a result, using the old adage, "if everyone is something, no one is something". Having 5 AGM's doesn't make them AGM's, it makes them Directors with prettier titles and bigger paycheques and fancier resumes, which will help them move on to bigger and better things (which I think is by design; if Dubas gets the boot, they'll likely get the boot as well, but will have AGM on their CV).

To use another company I worked for, on the Sales side, they wanted to promote 5 Regional Managers of Sales to Vice Presidents of Sales, despite the fact that they already had two VP's of Sales.

The Plan?

To have them each become Regional Vice Presidents, which was no different than Regional Managers - same responsibilities, no one below them got a corresponding promotion and no corresponding backfill to the RM position, and the existing Vice Presidents became Senior Vice Presidents so (you guessed it) bigger titles, and paycheques, but the same job.

Why did they do it? Simply put, they wanted to pay their people more and give them fancier titles. In reality, it was gross - they give already higher-ups just more money and clout, but the people who work beneath them lose opportunities at legitimate promotions and abilities to move their own careers forward.

I guarantee there is no plan to promote any new "Directors" to these portfolios. This is all glad-handing and resumé padding, while the people who report to them see little, if any, benefit... outside of potentially keeping their job under a new regime.
 
I feel like you’re purposely missing the point of what I said. I’m not saying there is no value to experience in the role, just that someone else with less experience can definitely not only meet but pass your level of competency because experience isn’t the most important factor.

You make it sound like all experience is directly transferable. Most of the experience you tout for Wickenheiser over the other two in this scenario has nothing to do with her current tasks and responsibilities and thus there is some limitation in It’s value.

The problem I personally find with Dubas isn’t that he’s inexperienced per se but the fact that he’s also started from the position of rejecting convention so over time he’s also learning why convention is convention.

It’s that his M.O. has always been to bring a degree of innovation to team building process. Which means he’s rejecting some conventional roster and organization building strategies to find capitalize on practice inefficiencies and “staking his career” on those “beliefs.”

Also notice that Dubas doesn’t play well with older executives and avoids veteran coaches (even as assistants) like the plague. I mean, if we follow the analogy that Dubas is the Auston Matthews of executives in hockey, why has he not surrounded himself with the executive version of a Joe Thornton or Jason Spezza? It’s an ego thing.
 

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