Last chance for Dubas and or Keefe?

[Nylanderthal]

I agree with you that we weren't favourite. Which makes it so unbelievable that we've been told how elite we are in every facet of the game (minus a single scapegoat every year) for half a decade by the usual suspects.

This is utter nonsense, and you know it

 

[Nylanderthal]

The Circle of Life in emotional seasons in a Leaf fans World.

The regular season is for unbridled Optimism proclaiming everything is wonderful.
The playoff season is when Realism sets in and Leafs depart early again.
The offseason is when Pessimism rules the roost, when the autopsy begins after another embarrassing loss after what seemed so promising going in.

Then Leafs draft a few guys and sign a few guys and the cycle begins all over again, as a new season starts.

The only way this painful cycle changes for Leaf nation is if the team mercifully finds playoff success with this management team, or if not get someone in here that can.

Time for excuses is over either put up or shut up... You can't keep rinsing and repeating and doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results because that is the definition of insanity.

How’d that pre season prediction of these guys being a bubble team at best work out for you mess?

 

[Nylanderthal]

How good can a team be if it loses in the 1st round against fodder like MTL and CBJ?

You mean cup finalist Montreal and tied in the standings that season Columbus?

 

[zeke]

How good can a team be if it loses in the 1st round against fodder like MTL and CBJ?

imagine being SWEPT by fodder like CBJ!!!

 

[zeke]

I agree with you that we weren't favourite. Which makes it so unbelievable that we've been told how elite we are in every facet of the game (minus a single scapegoat every year) for half a decade by the usual suspects.

1. Being an elite team doesn't mean elite in every facet of the game.
2. We weren't an elite team under Babcock, and were only tentatively elite in Keefe's 1st year.
3. Matthews/Marner/Tavares combining for 1 goal in a series is not "a single scapegoat".

 

[Jojalu]

How’d that pre season prediction of these guys being a bubble team at best work out for you mess?

In reality this is the cycle for every sports team in the history of sports. It's what makes it so fun. Eternal optimism turning to heartbreak. All for the thrill of maybe one day watching your team win it all. Wouldn't have it any other way

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Indeed!

Follow the team for 50+ years. Watch almost every game for 50 years, living and dying with them every step of the way. Spending time on this forum because of our huge interest in this team.

But if they lose, we'll be happy. This is an extreme level of stupidity/trolling, complete waste of space.

Agreed man.

I don’t think anyone that’s followed this team a long time, even the most pessimistic posters on here, gets enjoyment from seeing them lose in the big games. We’re all just starved for playoff success and the amount of truly embarrassing losses has led to some pretty extreme cases of frustration, myself included.

 

[Mess]

The #1 seeded Leafs taking on the #16OV Canadiens and being up 3-1 in the series find a way to lose including 2 games #5 and #7 at home might be one of the worst coaching body of work, and then seeing the CN Tower in Toronto lite up in Montreal colours, must have been one of most embarrassing and disappointing moments for the Leafs in recent history. Losing after being up 3-1 in a series as the heavy favourite has only happened a handful of times in the 100 year history of the NHL.

So what should have costed the coach his job minimum, and perhaps even the GM for hiring him, resulted in no change or accountability for the results in Toronto.

Keefe survived it because he was protected by his GM as his guy, and despite it being strike #3 already in playoff losses for the GM Dubas, he was sheltered and protected by the President Shanahan as his handpicked guy.

Yet the underdog Montreal Canadiens the lowest ranked team entering the playoffs, go all the way to the Stanley Cup finals, including through the Leafs before losing to the reigning Cup champs TB. They then lose their All-star $10 mil goalie Carey Price and former Norris Dman Shea Weber for the next season, their 2 best players, and when the Habs struggle Montreal fired both their GM Marc Bergevin and their coach Dominique Ducharme mid season with past playoff success buying them no goodwill or job security, because failure is not an accepted option.

However even if the Leafs lose to Tampa Bay in round #1 again, I have my doubts that Leafs would make any changes in management, simply writing off another disappointing loss as Leafs lost to a really good team so that explains the loss, and lets run it all back next year and try again ..

It just shows that in a results oriented business that accountability for the poor results is not equal, and the threshold for accepting failure, and delivering underachieving results despite lofty expectations are much different.

Defying logic and reasonable thinking the coach and GM that lost to Montreal in round #1 are safe and secure, apparently even above reproach by some, and the GM and coach that beat them are long gone from their jobs. If losing in round #1 over and over doesn't cause change just think if Leafs management actually won a round or two, how much long term job security that would buy Leafs management going forward, irregardless of any future outcomes and results.

 

[Gallagbi]

Lou Lam demands and expects winning and when it doesn't happen not afraid to change.

Remember back in 2007 when Lou was still with the Devils.

Devils, Perched in First, Dismiss Another Coach​

• April 3, 2007

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J., April 2 With the Devils in first place in their division and only three games to go in the regular season, General Manager Lou Lamoriello fired Coach Claude Julien on Monday and took the job. The move would be more bizarre if it were unprecedented.

View attachment 536991
Claude Julien guided the Devils to the second-best record in the Eastern Conference, posting a 47-24-8 mark with 102 points in his only season as coach.​

Standings and calendars have never meant much to Lamoriello, who fired Robbie Ftorek with eight games to play in 2000. The interim coach, Larry Robinson, led the Devils to the second of their three Stanley Cup championships.

“You don’t always judge by wins and losses as far as where you’re going and what you’re doing,” Lamoriello said.

“I don’t think that we’re at the point of being ready mentally to play the way that is necessary going into the playoffs,” Lamoriello said at Continental Arena. “I’m not saying that’s going to change, but there needs to be better focus going forward.”

Devils, Perched in First, Dismiss Another Coach (Published 2007)

General Manager Lou Lamoriello will replace Claude Julien on the New Jersey bench with less than a week to go in the regular season.

www.nytimes.com

If Lou wasn't happy with the results or the performance of the team, he wasn't afraid to make a coaching change.

If you're questioning Babcock after coming off a 1st round loss to Boston while the 3 Amigo were still in their 2nd seasons, then surely you can recognize the debacle and embarrassing losses of the CBJ and Mon losses under Keefe as being far worse coaching performances with a young core no longer teenagers.

Lou Lam never hesitated to hire Barry Trotz for the NYI only a few days after he won the Cup in Washington and was moving on. Why wouldn't he have done that for the Leafs if he believed it would improve Leafs chances under a better coach?. Lou Lam has won 6 playoff rounds, and been named exec of the year twice since leaving the Leafs, while Dubas and Keefe are still trying to win a single round.

I can't imagine this was posted with a straight face.

 

[TMLegend]

Yup, exactly the type of poster I was referring to. Took you seconds to pull that up lol.

Zeke doesn't believe most things he posts. He simply tries to get a rise out of people, and is often successful. This is the same poster who years ago died on the hill saying Reimer was a legitimate starting option, and then continually made a scapegoat of Freddie Andersen, who was a much better goaltender.

Anyway, to the topic at hand I doubt either Keefe/Dubas is fired this summer, regardless of what happens in the first round. Setting franchise records in points and wins will buy them another season at least.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Yet the underdog Montreal Canadiens the lowest ranked team entering the playoffs, go all the way to the Stanley Cup finals, including through the Leafs before losing to the reigning Cup champs TB. They then lose their All-star $10 mil goalie Carey Price and former Norris Dman Shea Weber for the next season, their 2 best players, and when the Habs struggle Montreal fired both their GM Marc Bergevin and their coach Dominique Ducharme mid season with past playoff success buying them no goodwill or job security, because failure is not an accepted option.

However even if the Leafs lose to Tampa Bay in round #1 again, I have my doubts that Leafs would make any changes in management, simply writing off another disappointing loss as Leafs lost to a really good team so that explains the loss, and lets run it all back next year and try again ..

It just shows that in a results oriented business that accountability for the poor results is not equal, and the threshold for accepting failure, and delivering underachieving results despite lofty expectations are much different.

Defying logic and reasonable thinking the coach and GM that lost to Montreal are safe and secure, apparently even above reproach by some, and the GM and coach that beat them are long gone from their jobs. If losing in round #1 over and over doesn't cause change just think if Leafs management actually won a round or two, how much long term job security that would buy Leafs management going forward, irregardless of any future outcomes and results.

Montreals "poor results" are being the worst team in the league. Toronto's "poor results" are being a great team that has choked in the playoffs. You're asking why the GM of the team with the 4th best record has more job security than the GM of the team with the worst record. Seems pretty self evident.

I'm quite confident that if the Leafs were in 32nd place they would have a new GM as well.

 

[JKG33]

Montreals "poor results" are being the worst team in the league. Toronto's "poor results" are being a great team that has choked in the playoffs. You're asking why the GM of the team with the 4th best record has more job security than the GM of the team with the worst record. Seems pretty self evident.

I'm quite confident if the Leafs were in 32nd place they would have a new GM as well.

One team went to the Stanley Cup finals, lost their 3 best players (2 due to injury) for the next season and still cleaned house.

The other team hasn't won a playoff round in 5 playoff appearances together as a group and still management is given a longer leash.

Montreal accomplished more in that one playoff run than the Leafs have in what... about 20 years? That wasn't Bergevin's first long playoff run either

 

[Nylanderthal]

One team went to the Stanley Cup finals, lost their 3 best players (2 due to injury) for the next season and still cleaned house.

The other team hasn't won a playoff round in 5 playoff appearances together as a group and still management is given a longer leash.

Montreal accomplished more in that one playoff run than the Leafs have in what... about 20 years? That wasn't Bergevin's first long playoff run either

How many years did Bargainbin get in charge to produce those results? The core of the leafs are still very young and we’re even younger still in that series. That was the first time they had pressure on them to succeed, and missing the oldest most seasoned member pretty much the whole series.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone defend past failures as acceptable or okay, it’s just some of us aren’t as nearsighted as the rest of you and can see the forest from the trees. Quit being so reactionary and angry, I promise you your life will be better for it.

 

[JKG33]

How many years did Bargainbin get in charge to produce those results? The core of the leafs are still very young and we’re even younger still in that series. That was the first time they had pressure on them to succeed, and missing the oldest most seasoned member pretty much the whole series.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone defend past failures as acceptable or okay, it’s just some of us aren’t as nearsighted as the rest of you and can see the forest from the trees. Quit being so reactionary and angry, I promise you your life will be better for it.

Bergevin went to the conference finals in his 2nd season as GM

 

[notbias]

Lou Lam demands and expects winning and when it doesn't happen not afraid to change.

He should retire because he is the issue.

 

[mikeyz]

I feel like anyone with eyes would see that this team should be having more success in the playoffs. At some point, players wilting in the post season is a player problem, and trades need to happen.

I think Dubas has at least 1 more year of leash no matter what happens.

After this year and next, we enter the existential crisis of our once young core reaching UFA. That's when I could see a big organizational shift.

I really honestly believe that there’s a certain % of this fan base that wouldn’t care if the Leafs never won a round in the playoffs again. I really do.

 

[TheDoldrums]

One team went to the Stanley Cup finals, lost their 3 best players (2 due to injury) for the next season and still cleaned house.

The other team hasn't won a playoff round in 5 playoff appearances together as a group and still management is given a longer leash.

Montreal accomplished more in that one playoff run than the Leafs have in what... about 20 years? That wasn't Bergevin's first long playoff run either

No need for everyone to keep mentioning Montreals injuries unless you're going to do the same for Toronto in the playoffs.

One team keeps choking elimination games. The other team is the worst in the league. Only here would some people be confused by why the guy in Montreal was the one fired.

 

[ACC1224]

I really honestly believe that there’s a certain % of this fan base that wouldn’t care if the Leafs never won a round in the playoffs again. I really do.

It’s not whether you win but how you lose?

 

[Jojalu]

The #1 seeded Leafs taking on the #16OV Canadiens and being up 3-1 in the series find a way to lose including 2 games #5 and #7 at home might be one of the worst coaching body of work, and then seeing the CN Tower in Toronto lite up in Montreal colours, must have been one of most embarrassing and disappointing moments for the Leafs in recent history. Losing after being up 3-1 in a series as the heavy favourite has only happened a handful of times in the 100 year history of the NHL.

So what should have costed the coach his job minimum, and perhaps even the GM for hiring him, resulted in no change or accountability for the results in Toronto.

Keefe survived it because he was protected by his GM as his guy, and despite it being strike #3 already in playoff losses for the GM Dubas, he was sheltered and protected by the President Shanahan as his handpicked guy.

Yet the underdog Montreal Canadiens the lowest ranked team entering the playoffs, go all the way to the Stanley Cup finals, including through the Leafs before losing to the reigning Cup champs TB. They then lose their All-star $10 mil goalie Carey Price and former Norris Dman Shea Weber for the next season, their 2 best players, and when the Habs struggle Montreal fired both their GM Marc Bergevin and their coach Dominique Ducharme mid season with past playoff success buying them no goodwill or job security, because failure is not an accepted option.

However even if the Leafs lose to Tampa Bay in round #1 again, I have my doubts that Leafs would make any changes in management, simply writing off another disappointing loss as Leafs lost to a really good team so that explains the loss, and lets run it all back next year and try again ..

It just shows that in a results oriented business that accountability for the poor results is not equal, and the threshold for accepting failure, and delivering underachieving results despite lofty expectations are much different.

Defying logic and reasonable thinking the coach and GM that lost to Montreal in round #1 are safe and secure, apparently even above reproach by some, and the GM and coach that beat them are long gone from their jobs. If losing in round #1 over and over doesn't cause change just think if Leafs management actually won a round or two, how much long term job security that would buy Leafs management going forward, irregardless of any future outcomes and results.

Curious to how this is an alltime coaching blunder?

It's fine not to like Keefe but it is ridiculous to think he would be fired after 1.5 seasons of which both were played under circumstances that no one had been through before.

The Leafs badly outplayed Montreal. They couldn't score. That shows the gameplan created by the coach was fine. The execution by the players was awful.

 

[JKG33]

No need for everyone to keep mentioning Montreals injuries unless you're going to do the same for Toronto in the playoffs.

One team keeps choking elimination games. The other team is the worst in the league. Only here would some people be confused by why the guy in Montreal was the one fired.

This is a results oriented business. Montreal has results in the playoffs, Toronto doesn't. It's pretty simple.

And lol what significant injuries has Toronto faced in the playoffs? Losing the 3rd best forward last year?

 

[TheDoldrums]

This is a results oriented business. Montreal has results in the playoffs, Toronto doesn't. It's pretty simple.

And lol what significant injuries has Toronto faced in the playoffs? Losing the 3rd best forward last year?

yes, Tavares was a significant injury. As was Muzzins against Columbus. At least as significant as whatever you think Shea Weber was going to provide this season.

 

[JKG33]

the corpse of Shea Weber is a significant injury this year for Montreal but Tavares and Muzzin weren't last year for Toronto? Okay.

The corpse of Shea Weber who was their best d man? Admittedly Petry is a close 2nd there but still. Far more significant than Tavares or Muzzin who are further down the Leafs depth chart.

Also let's not forget about Price, who most here claim is the only reason they won that series

 

[TheDoldrums]

The corpse of Shea Weber who was their best d man? Admittedly Petry is a close 2nd there but still. Far more significant than Tavares or Muzzin who are further down the Leafs depth chart.

Also let's not forget about Price, who most here claim is the only reason they won that series

sure Price is a significant injury but that's sort of why you don't pay a goalie that much until he's 38. When you rely on old players, injuries are more common. Paying big money to old injured guys while letting Danault go doesn't sound like much of a Bergevin defense.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I can't imagine this was posted with a straight face.

Would have been a great point if the Devils won a Cup or reached the finals that year. But alas, they didn't.

Bergevin went to the conference finals in his 2nd season as GM

So two deep runs and six playoff berths. For Dubas this is year four. Kind of a rhetorical question, but how many should he get considering Bergevin got ten?

 

[All Mod Cons]

I really honestly believe that there’s a certain % of this fan base that wouldn’t care if the Leafs never won a round in the playoffs again. I really do.

I think if we lose in the 1st round yet again this year, I'm going to try to train myself to only care about the regular season. Treat it like the Premier League. Wherever we finish in the regular season is where we are.

If I deny the playoffs exist, I'll get a longer Summer to enjoy.