Last chance for Dubas and or Keefe?
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Leaf Fans
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Stephen
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I don't think anyone should be fired, even if the team under performs in the playoffs. We're simply a great team that has a chance every year, with flaws that are a work in progress year to year. The lack of series wins is a tough pill, the division is hard, etc. but you keep at it and keep knocking on the door. It's not like the next GM will have more cap space to work with.
No one gets fired, but a major trade happens.
At this point, I firmly believe Dubas is a damn good GM. He's excellent at the draft table and signs depth forwards like it's easy. The Oilers would have won a cup years ago with Dubas handing them an endless cycle of goal scorers and defensive forwards on 1m contracts. He rebuilt our defense from what was a heinous pile of garbage into the strongest D group I can remember for this team. We're scratching a good defenseman every night. Dubas has made his mistakes like the Kadri trade and Ritchie/Mrazek, but he doesn't double down on them and doesn't have an obvious trend of repeating mistakes. He's tried different blends such as skillful fourth lines and veteran grinders. He's tried a soft puck moving defense and evolved it into the big mobile force it is now. This guy is working to build the team and is consistently adding value. It's a f***in drag that he hasn't gotten the recipe right yet, but I also blame players for some of their failures and I can clearly see a GM who is improving. I'm willing to stand by him and hope he stays regardless of the playoff outcome this year. This has been a damn good team under his watch and I'm satisfied with that.
There's a lot of bad GM's out there with NHL jobs and even more looking for NHL jobs. I know I'd rather have Dubas than the mystery GM.
I genuinely do not care about Keefe one way or the other. But this does look like a damn good team and I'll give him credit for that.
If they do lose this playoffs I think the big4 experiment has just about run its course. It was fun as hell while it lasted and I was a fan of it the whole way through, but if it doesn't work it doesn't work. We're not likely to outright fleece another team while moving a core piece, but honestly this team is so rich with player talent and prospect capital that we're in great shape. Just mix the group up and keep working to perfect the recipe.
At this point, I firmly believe Dubas is a damn good GM. He's excellent at the draft table and signs depth forwards like it's easy. The Oilers would have won a cup years ago with Dubas handing them an endless cycle of goal scorers and defensive forwards on 1m contracts. He rebuilt our defense from what was a heinous pile of garbage into the strongest D group I can remember for this team. We're scratching a good defenseman every night. Dubas has made his mistakes like the Kadri trade and Ritchie/Mrazek, but he doesn't double down on them and doesn't have an obvious trend of repeating mistakes. He's tried different blends such as skillful fourth lines and veteran grinders. He's tried a soft puck moving defense and evolved it into the big mobile force it is now. This guy is working to build the team and is consistently adding value. It's a f***in drag that he hasn't gotten the recipe right yet, but I also blame players for some of their failures and I can clearly see a GM who is improving. I'm willing to stand by him and hope he stays regardless of the playoff outcome this year. This has been a damn good team under his watch and I'm satisfied with that.
There's a lot of bad GM's out there with NHL jobs and even more looking for NHL jobs. I know I'd rather have Dubas than the mystery GM.
I genuinely do not care about Keefe one way or the other. But this does look like a damn good team and I'll give him credit for that.
If they do lose this playoffs I think the big4 experiment has just about run its course. It was fun as hell while it lasted and I was a fan of it the whole way through, but if it doesn't work it doesn't work. We're not likely to outright fleece another team while moving a core piece, but honestly this team is so rich with player talent and prospect capital that we're in great shape. Just mix the group up and keep working to perfect the recipe.
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Once the playoffs start they really need to close and lock any what happens if we lose threads.
Mess
Global Moderator
The best time to fix a mistake is before you make one in the first place.
That means Dubas & Keefe shouldn't be fired, they simply shouldn't have been hired in the first place, unqualified to lead a fortune 500 company for a big market team where money is no option and management is not salary cap committed. You can hire the best available talent to run the organization, and bring in the most talented and experienced, with a track record of past Cup success.
Had the Leafs retained Lou Lam after drafted franchise #1C Auston Matthews and given him more then 2 years thereafter while ending on a franchise best 105 points. we might have seen him hire Barry Trotz for Toronto.. Then he might have been named Exec of the year 2 X is an row as Leafs GM, while Trotz may have taken the Leafs to the final 4 overall appearances and almost certainly not embarrassed the Leafs organization with losses to CBJ and Montreal while Leafs youth in management go through their own rookie/greenhorn learning curves.
Trotz did that with a team in NYI that has far less talent then the Leafs do , and just lost their franchise center Tavares to UFA to boot.
So this a big prove year for Leafs management both GM and coach to show moving on from HHOF management, was the correct move despite the inexperience and the struggles they have shown the past 3 years. That is the only way the end justifies the means, as Leafs almost certainly wouldn't be sitting here still trying to win a first round series. IMO
That means Dubas & Keefe shouldn't be fired, they simply shouldn't have been hired in the first place, unqualified to lead a fortune 500 company for a big market team where money is no option and management is not salary cap committed. You can hire the best available talent to run the organization, and bring in the most talented and experienced, with a track record of past Cup success.
Had the Leafs retained Lou Lam after drafted franchise #1C Auston Matthews and given him more then 2 years thereafter while ending on a franchise best 105 points. we might have seen him hire Barry Trotz for Toronto.. Then he might have been named Exec of the year 2 X is an row as Leafs GM, while Trotz may have taken the Leafs to the final 4 overall appearances and almost certainly not embarrassed the Leafs organization with losses to CBJ and Montreal while Leafs youth in management go through their own rookie/greenhorn learning curves.
Trotz did that with a team in NYI that has far less talent then the Leafs do , and just lost their franchise center Tavares to UFA to boot.
So this a big prove year for Leafs management both GM and coach to show moving on from HHOF management, was the correct move despite the inexperience and the struggles they have shown the past 3 years. That is the only way the end justifies the means, as Leafs almost certainly wouldn't be sitting here still trying to win a first round series. IMO
You think Lou was planning to fire Babcock after the first Bruins loss? Wasn't he fitting that exact criteria you want of a proven cup winner with a record of success?
Leaf Fans
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Yup that is one of the infinite possibilities that could have happened and may have happened in an alternative universe.
Where is that team now if you don't mind me asking?
Teams that play the way the Islanders do always have an early expiry date. They absolutely stink now and get run to the ground by every good team they play.
We're trying to emulate and be Tampa Bay who happens to be the team the Islanders could never beat in the playoffs.
Franchise best in points is now 113 points could be 115 points by Friday. The defense is far better under Dubas, and so is the depth despite the large salaries of our core players.
We lost Hyman and we turned around and made that 1st line even better than it was with the addition of Bunting on it.
Every night, even when healthy, we are resting 1-2 good defenseman who would play for pretty much every other team.
saffronleaf
Registered User
agreed. I'm open to looking at other options, but they need to show what they'll do differently. I don't think it's reasonable to judge a GM purely on results; you have to look at the context and process. What info did the GM have ex ante? What was the thought process? How will this new GM change it for the better?
and yea, I think this is a very good team and I don't see how another GM will make it materially better (although I'm all ears). With a very good team, all you can do is keep trying every year and hopefully it works out once or twice.
Hoglund4MvP
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Lou Lam is junk and Islanders are pile of garbage
It's going to be so awkward for some posters here if the Leafs do actually break through in the playoffs and have success.
Gary Nylund
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I think this about the 87th time I've read this during the last three years.
ShaneFalco
Registered User
I think most would like to be proven wrong.
I would love to feel that awkwardness. I would love for fans to tell me, Fahad(that's me) you were wrong about Dubas and Keefe. You have no idea what you are talking about. If we win few rounds, you can call me little suzzy, you can make fun of me if at will.
I am happy to feel that way.
Fun fact
Out of all Canadian team not named Ottawa. We are the only Canadian team not to make it to 2nd round in two years(I am including qualifying games)
Everyone one of those teams including the Stanly Cup finalist, Montreal, have a new coaches and in case of Montreal have GM and coach
Our standards are so low, that if there's a team in this league tolerates and supports medicority it's us. That we are ok, keeping Dubas and Keefe just because of regular season results and how good the team looks
Teams like Floriday has leap frogged us because of moves their GMs' made. Calgary few years ago didn't even make the playoffs and now looking like a contender because of new coaching. Rangers looking like an upcoming team because of coaching
I don't know what the record is for a team to keep making the playoffs and not win a round. We haven't won a round in 6 years but it's ok. No changes is neccessary
I hope to be made fun of. I really do. I hope I feel that awkwardness
Havoc
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If we lose in round 1, then touching the core 4 is fine if it's Tavares.
Any GM who would think of trading one of Marner or Nylander if we lose in round 1 should be fired.
All 3 young studs out produce their AAV (yes Matthews and Marner out produce their cap hits) so if you can't fill up the remaining 9 forward slots with a group that compliments what's missing (in the event a loss exposes us again for being soft) then you should be shown the door if your idea for change is to touch the best part of the team.
Nylander did enough in the quarter finals to offset Marner and Matthews not finishing, all we needed was even one more goal from a depth player and it was smooth sailing to round 2 where it is likely the puck would start going into the net for the top line. But our depth, to be blunt was complete ass and looked absolutely shook by the Habs physicality. Nylander gets called soft yet he navigated through all that with ease.
Dubas will be my worst enemy if Mik and Engvall and others go ghost in the playoffs again yet trades Nylander just to satisfy the "change" addicts. The awkward talk with Tavares to waive should occur well before you even consider touching Nylander.
Our playoff losses have nothing to do with our cap situation for those who want to break up the core because of it. This league is run by stars, the difference betwen a 1-5 mil depth player decreases by the year. Breakout players are becoming unpredictable now and usually on very low cap hits when the breakout happens. You can go join the bubble teams if you want to subtract a star just so you can add a dynamic duo of Palmieri and Pageau instead.
Any GM who would think of trading one of Marner or Nylander if we lose in round 1 should be fired.
All 3 young studs out produce their AAV (yes Matthews and Marner out produce their cap hits) so if you can't fill up the remaining 9 forward slots with a group that compliments what's missing (in the event a loss exposes us again for being soft) then you should be shown the door if your idea for change is to touch the best part of the team.
Nylander did enough in the quarter finals to offset Marner and Matthews not finishing, all we needed was even one more goal from a depth player and it was smooth sailing to round 2 where it is likely the puck would start going into the net for the top line. But our depth, to be blunt was complete ass and looked absolutely shook by the Habs physicality. Nylander gets called soft yet he navigated through all that with ease.
Dubas will be my worst enemy if Mik and Engvall and others go ghost in the playoffs again yet trades Nylander just to satisfy the "change" addicts. The awkward talk with Tavares to waive should occur well before you even consider touching Nylander.
Our playoff losses have nothing to do with our cap situation for those who want to break up the core because of it. This league is run by stars, the difference betwen a 1-5 mil depth player decreases by the year. Breakout players are becoming unpredictable now and usually on very low cap hits when the breakout happens. You can go join the bubble teams if you want to subtract a star just so you can add a dynamic duo of Palmieri and Pageau instead.
It's pretty arrogant to call hiring Dubas and Keefe a mistake, given where the Leafs are now, and to make such wide assumptions about where they might have been in some other imaginary world inside your mind.
They aren't Fortunes 500 executives. They're a pro hockey team's general manager and coach. That's a completely different skill set.
I don't think there's any need to compare Lamoriello and Dubas, as though you have to be for one and against the other. They both helped the Leafs progress to the good place they occupy now.
Leaf Fans
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Mess
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Look on the bright side after embarrassing losses to CBJ and Mon the past 2 years there really is no where to go but up from here as they were already sitting at the bottom after those performances.
Being up 3-1 games on the #18th ranked Montreal Canadiens that wouldn't even have qualified to make the playoffs without a Pandemic rule change and alignment, would already have costed a coach and perhaps a GM their jobs when expectations were so high going into the playoffs and the path of QofC never going to be easier.
Some would say Leafs young management is already on borrowed time if being judged on performance of the past playoffs , and so lets hope this is the year after ex Gm Lou Lam who gifted them a 60 goal and potential best all-time generational player before his departure, that they make the most of this what should be "last chance" opportunity in most organizations.
Hopefully the Leafs do break through because haven't won a playoff round since 2004 and since the salary cap was instituted, is weighing heavily on the franchise, and current management is squandering years before these current contracts expire, as this window closes.
As a long time suffering Leafs fans since the 1960's I be thrilled with playoff success, and understand that its likely going to be driven by Auston Matthews, and the current management can ride those coattails of his Hart, Rocket Richard, and hopefully Conn Smythe playoff MVP of his success all the way to hoisting the Cup, and then when the dust settles history will show it was Lou Lam that turned it all around for the organization and provided the KEY component Matthews so that future management can bask in any and all future playoff success he provides.
That wouldn't bother me one bit, as that is what I'm hoping for to happen, and sooner rather than later !! Its the losing that is bothering me not any potential winning.
ShaneFalco
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The chest thumpimg we are " elite" crowd disappear after every playoff loss only to resurface with why we should have won stats
ACC1224
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