Speculation: LA Kings News, Rumors, Roster Thread part VII

[redcard]

What did the Kopitar contract cost us? Who did we miss out on because we were paying Kopitar $10 million?

Lucic? Glad we didn't sign that one. Any UFA contract would be no better value than Kopitar's. We didn't lose any RFAs ala Chicago due to cap issues.

If he'd have signed for $7 million, we'd still have sucked even with the extra $3 million in cap space.

If we'd let him walk or traded him, you still have to replace his impact on the ice...which is still going to cost most of that $10 million.

His cap hit the last 6 years has been meaningless. We could have given him $13 million and we'd still have finished in the same spot every year.

 

[KINGS17]

What did the Kopitar contract cost us? Who did we miss out on because we were paying Kopitar $10 million?

Lucic? Glad we didn't sign that one. Any UFA contract would be no better value than Kopitar's. We didn't lose any RFAs ala Chicago due to cap issues.

If he'd have signed for $7 million, we'd still have sucked even with the extra $3 million in cap space.

If we'd let him walk or traded him, you still have to replace his impact on the ice...which is still going to cost most of that $10 million.

His cap hit the last 6 years has been meaningless. We could have given him $13 million and we'd still have finished in the same spot every year.

Kopitar's presence on the roster has also been close to meaningless over the term of his current contract. He could have been traded for any number of assets. The cost of his deal was the lost opportunity missed by not acquiring those assets.

The cost of his deal is obvious, if you are willing to open your mind to the opportunities missed.

Your assumption regarding the need to replace his impact on the ice immediately is a fallacy, and there is no way of knowing the cap hit of his replacement or the other assets that would have been acquired in a deal.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Kopitar's presence on the roster has also been close to meaningless over the term of his current contract. He could have been traded for any number of assets. The cost of his deal was the lost opportunity missed by not acquiring those assets.

The cost of his deal is obvious, if you are willing to open your mind to the opportunities missed.

Your assumption regarding the need to replace his impact on the ice immediately is a fallacy, and there is no way of knowing the cap hit of his replacement or the other assets that would have been acquired in a deal.

Since you have it all figured out through your crystal ball, why don't you tell us what deals the Kings missed out on involving Kopitar?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Kopitar still finished in the top 25 in scoring among centers, and had more points than...
Patrice Bergeron
Ryan Johansen
Nick Suzuki
Mat Barzal
Ryan O'Reilly
Pierre Luc-Dubois
Logan Couture
Bo Horvat
Tyler Seguin
Jeff Carter
Jonathan Toews

Kopitar can be frustrating to watch because we realize he can put up more points, but let's not pretend he's not an important player anymore. It's amazing how many fans try to discredit him year-after-year. It's the same fickle bunch as well.

 

[King'sPawn]

Kopitar still finished in the top 25 in scoring among centers, and had more points than...
Patrice Bergeron
Ryan Johansen
Nick Suzuki
Mat Barzal
Ryan O'Reilly
Pierre Luc-Dubois
Logan Couture
Bo Horvat
Tyler Seguin
Jeff Carter
Jonathan Toews

Kopitar can be frustrating to watch because we realize he can put up more points, but let's not pretend he's not an important player anymore. It's amazing how many fans try to discredit him year-after-year. It's the same fickle bunch as well.

Apparently any flawed player is a detriment. And the moment a player might start earning a favorable contract means it's time to trade him for prospects.

 

[cyclones22]

Someone missed Robitaille's memo on team colors. Someday this organization will wake up and return to Forum Blue and Gold.

This is where Hoven jumps in and says that fans "don't want" purple and gold jerseys because of "research" and focus groups. But good luck finding a purple and gold jersey after they become available for sale. They must get immediately shipped to impoverished African nations because of lack of demand.

 

[Kudelski37]

Kopitar's presence on the roster has also been close to meaningless over the term of his current contract. He could have been traded for any number of assets. The cost of his deal was the lost opportunity missed by not acquiring those assets.

The cost of his deal is obvious, if you are willing to open your mind to the opportunities missed.

Your assumption regarding the need to replace his impact on the ice immediately is a fallacy, and there is no way of knowing the cap hit of his replacement or the other assets that would have been acquired in a deal.

If the Kings can't develop forwards, then any asset gained by trading Kopitar would have been wasted resulting in the Kings being the western version of Buffalo or worse. How is this better than making the playoffs twice during Kopitar's current contract and three times since signing the extension?

 

[TruKingFan]

Kopitar's legacy will be one of being so underrated that he is overrated.

He has been a consistently very good player whose role has been just as much of a detriment as a positive. It is very, very difficult to succeed with a pessimistic #1 center who consistently left 20-30 points on the table nearly every year to play it safe when.the team has so desperately needed more offense.

He has clearly been the teams most talented player, an absolute workhorse, since day one. That will be missed for as long as we are all still around. But the days when the Kings have a number one, TEAM driving center who takes responsibility for the team's offensive output instead of just being the guy who happens to collect the most points will be welcomed warmly.

I don't have a problem with Kopitar, he is who he is and that is a definite Hall of Famer. But the problem is that he has been too good to replace, and the team has only ever succeeded with him when the roster was packed to the rafters with talent and aggression. On his own, he isn't the type of player or personality to lead any team anywhere other than exactly where they would be without him. His legacy is a supremely talented supporting player, not a driver, who favored safety over maximizing his potential.

Bullshit.
Kopitar’s legacy will be as one of the best players drafted by and played for the Kings. Along with Brownie, Quickie, and Drew - the main drivers of the Kings’ TWO Cups so far.

None of this wishy-washy diatribes of he’s overrated but underrated, he’s a HOFer but he could have been more, he’s talented but timid, etc.
Just say you don’t like him as a player so we can just chalk it up to that instead of pretending you know what you’re talking about.

 

[KINGS17]

If the Kings can't develop forwards, then any asset gained by trading Kopitar would have been wasted resulting in the Kings being the western version of Buffalo or worse. How is this better than making the playoffs twice during Kopitar's current contract and three times since signing the extension?

The ability to develop talent is a separate issue.

 

[KINGS17]

Since you have it all figured out through your crystal ball, why don't you tell us what deals the Kings missed out on involving Kopitar?

Since this is just another BS fallacy (no one has it all figured out), I will answer this by saying what I said would happen when Kopitar signed the deal is pretty much what has happened.

You know what you can do with your crystal ball, jack.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The ability to develop talent is a separate issue.

But it plays into your argument......if the Kings can't develop talent.....why would they trade a KNOWN talent....for an unknown talent they can't develop?

 

[KINGS17]

But it plays into your argument......if the Kings can't develop talent.....why would they trade a KNOWN talent....for an unknown talent they can't develop?

No it doesn't. Get a better development staff. These are two entirely different issues.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

No it doesn't. Get a better development staff. These are two entirely different issues.

But they haven't, so you wanted them to trade Kopitar to get unknown assets, to try and develop them into a player to replace....Kopitar.....

Sound reasoning.

 

[Kudelski37]

No it doesn't. Get a better development staff. These are two entirely different issues.

Here are the last three LA King picks that had at least two seasons of 30 goals with the Kings:
1. Kopitar
2. Frolov
3. Carson
The issue has spanned decades, gms, scouts, AHL coaches, IHL coaches, and NHL coaches. If the team is smart and thinks ahead more than 1 move at a time, then this has to be factored in a cost-benefit analysis of trading Kopitar. As you can see, the odds of eventually replacing Kopitar's production with an asset acquired from selling off Kopitar and the other cup winners is very low.

 

[redcard]

Kopitar's presence on the roster has also been close to meaningless over the term of his current contract. He could have been traded for any number of assets. The cost of his deal was the lost opportunity missed by not acquiring those assets

The cost of his deal is obvious, if you are willing to open your mind to the opportunities missed.

Your assumption regarding the need to replace his impact on the ice immediately is a fallacy, and there is no way of knowing the cap hit of his replacement or the other assets that would have been acquired in a deal.

Open my mind how? By inventing hypothetical deals that didn't happen?

What comparable forwards, aged 29+ were traded in the last few years that demonstrate the opportunity cost of not trading him?

Best I can find is Phil Kessel (same age as Kopitar) being traded to Pittsburgh in 2016 for Kasperi Kapenen, Scott Harington, Nick Spaling and the picks that became Sam Steel and J.D. Greenway. Hindsight, that's pretty underwhelming for Toronto.

Kopitar's $10 million didn't stop us from blowing $6 million on Kovalchuk, or adding Maata as a 7th defensman for $3 million. Or acquiring/signing Arvidsson, Danault, & Fialla for a combined $17 million. Because it didn't matter.

 

[King'sPawn]

The ability to develop talent is a separate issue.

No. It's not. But you can argue with others. I've been saying the same stuff for years and frankly just don't have the fight anymore.

 

[KINGS17]

Here are the last three LA King picks that had at least two seasons of 30 goals with the Kings:
1. Kopitar
2. Frolov
3. Carson
The issue has spanned decades, gms, scouts, AHL coaches, IHL coaches, and NHL coaches. If the team is smart and thinks ahead more than 1 move at a time, then this has to be factored in a cost-benefit analysis of trading Kopitar. As you can see, the odds of eventually replacing Kopitar's production with an asset acquired from selling off Kopitar and the other cup winners is very low.

Yeah, so fix the develop staff. I don't agree with your conclusion. What I can see is the development staff is underperforming when it comes to producing goal scorers.

Open my mind how? By inventing hypothetical deals that didn't happen?

What comparable forwards, aged 29+ were traded in the last few years that demonstrate the opportunity cost of not trading him?

Best I can find is Phil Kessel (same age as Kopitar) being traded to Pittsburgh in 2016 for Kasperi Kapenen, Scott Harington, Nick Spaling and the picks that became Sam Steel and J.D. Greenway. Hindsight, that's pretty underwhelming for Toronto.

Kopitar's $10 million didn't stop us from blowing $6 million on Kovalchuk, or adding Maata as a 7th defensman for $3 million. Or acquiring/signing Arvidsson, Danault, & Fialla for a combined $17 million. Because it didn't matter.

A; Do better than Toronto.

 

[johnjm22]

Many of the criticisms of the Kopitar contract are valid.

However, I would argue the main reason for the Kings struggles since 2016 is mostly due to a cascade of bad management decisions, and some bad luck (Voynov & Richards come to mind).

I think it's a fallacy that trading Kopitar would have garnered a big return. Pending UFA's that require massive contracts to be re-signed rarely garner the massive haul people hope for.

 

[Kudelski37]

Yeah, so fix the develop staff. I don't agree with your conclusion. What I can see is the development staff is underperforming when it comes to producing goal scorers.

Why not just say draft a generational center? Bam, problem solved just as easily as saying fix the development staff.

 

[BringTheReign]

I really wish the forum kept posts older than a few years, because it would be a pretty interesting exercise to go back and read the comments from all of us back when Kopitar and Doughty were extended on their current deals.

I would love to hear all the examples of teams cutting bait on similar, franchise-level players in situations where the player still wanted to stay.

EDIT: Surprisingly you can actually still find the thread from 2016 when Kopitar's deal was confirmed, and a quick glance at the posters who are still around shows that folks are remarkably consistent. Good on all of you, you either hated it or thought it was fine from the start.

Kopitar signs 8year/$80M contract confirmed with link

 

[Telos]

Kopitar hasn't been perfect or anything, but criticism of him and his contract to any severity is borderline laughable in the sense that he has been our best overall player for the longest period of time in franchise history and still is. He may not be what he was, but is still the #1 center and wouldn't have generated a return that equals or comes close to his worth to the team, the production he provides, or the franchise.

This team doesn't need another middling first or prospect, it needs to compete now and develop its young prospects which Kopitar can help with. Sure, we can look to any value we can get out of him in his last year or two, but honestly, if the goal is playoffs and we can fit his cap hit I see no reason not to have him on the team.

 

[Kudelski37]

I really wish the forum kept posts older than a few years, because it would be a pretty interesting exercise to go back and read the comments from all of us back when Kopitar and Doughty were extended on their current deals.

I would love to hear all the examples of teams cutting bait on similar, franchise-level players in situations where the player still wanted to stay.

EDIT: Surprisingly you can actually still find the thread from 2016 when Kopitar's deal was confirmed, and a quick glance at the posters who are still around shows that folks are remarkably consistent. Good on all of you, you either hated it or thought it was fine from the start.

Kopitar signs 8year/$80M contract confirmed with link

I distinctly remember someone arguing to extend Lucic before Kopi and letting Kopi walk if he wouldn't sign for what was left. I think it was in the general news/rumors thread.

 

[KINGS17]

Why not just say draft a generational center? Bam, problem solved just as easily as saying fix the development staff.

Another fallacious statement. By definition a generational talent occurs once in a generation. So, what do you think is the better approach, getting a development staff that can develop the forwards offensive abilities, or a scouting staff that is looking for a generational talent with a pick that is not the #1 overall.

The Kings scouting staff must be doing a great job of finding near generational defensemen in the draft, right?

 

[KINGS17]

Kopitar hasn't been perfect or anything, but criticism of him and his contract to any severity is borderline laughable in the sense that he has been our best overall player for the longest period of time in franchise history and still is. He may not be what he was, but is still the #1 center and wouldn't have generated a return that equals or comes close to his worth to the team, the production he provides, or the franchise.

This team doesn't need another middling first or prospect, it needs to compete now and develop its young prospects which Kopitar can help with. Sure, we can look to any value we can get out of him in his last year or two, but honestly, if the goal is playoffs and we can fit his cap hit I see no reason not to have him on the team.

Again, who cares about the best player on a crap team. That's the Michael Cammalleri argument that Dean rejected when Cammalleri wanted big money.

Kopitar is the 1C on a team that hasn't done jack in the playoffs over the length of the entire deal. When the deal is done, he will still be the 1C on a team that hasn't done jack in the playoffs over the entire length of his contract. I don't care about him being the best player on the team.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Again, who cares about the best player on a crap team. That's the Michael Cammalleri argument that Dean rejected when Cammalleri wanted big money.

Kopitar is the 1C on a team that hasn't done jack in the playoffs over the length of the entire deal. When the deal is done, he will still be the 1C on a team that hasn't done jack in the playoffs over the entire length of his contract. I don't care about him being the best player on the team.

So then, the same argument can be applied to McDavid, Draisatl, Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Barzal, Barkov, shit...tell me when I go to far and and on and on and on......Wait, Gaudreau, Tkcachuk? Huberdeau?