Rumor: Kypreos says Matthews will be 13.5M (Haggling over term)

[PainForShane]

Mackinnon is a Stanley Cup winner because of Makar, not because he carried them. How many more points did Makar score than him as a d-man?

If Rielly turned into Makar and the Leafs win with Matthews being 3rd on the team in scoring - is he now a better player?

No, because MacK still produced at a much higher rate in the playoffs than Matthews has, it's not even close. This is a basic point.

Everyone, including you, knows MacK was not a passenger in the Colorado cup run, you're not fooling anyone.

 

[CanadienShark]

More like a better Hossa

Eichel is a shit comparison for Hossa and a worse player.

 

[ACLEVERNAME]

Not an overly clever retort here . Also what is this specific bullshit you speak of

alright bud. It's the same bullshit that has all your star players demanding stupid percentages of the cap. When you build a house of cards, don't be suprised when it falls apart, ok?

 

[Boxscore]

Eichel is a shit comparison for Hossa and a worse player.

Agreed.

 

[Divine]

No, because MacK still produced at a much higher rate in the playoffs than Matthews has, it's not even close. This is a basic point.

Everyone, including you, knows MacK was not a passenger in the Colorado cup run, you're not fooling anyone.

He was third on the team in scoring.

I asked if Matthews is third in scoring on the Leafs and they win the Cup is it the same? And you said no.

It makes no sense.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I've never met any? Always leafs fans, so by volume much worse.

I don't believe that.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

How many cups are we expecting Matthews to bring back to Toronto?

 

[Boxscore]

He was third on the team in scoring.

I asked if Matthews is third in scoring on the Leafs and they win the Cup is it the same?

Yes, he was 3rd in team scoring, but you're stretching it here. Makar was the clear best offensive performer for the Avs and Rantanen and MacKinnon were pretty much a wash and you know it. Rantanen scored 1 more point than MacKinnon in those 20 games lol. ONE. Both were well over a PPG (1.2 PPG for MacKinnon and 1.25 for Rantanen).

So, context is key here. If it were...

Makar = 1.5 PPG
Rantanen = 1.25 PPG
MacKinnon = 0.88 PPG

... that's a lot different and would more accurately represent the point you are reaching to make. But that's simply not the case.

But to answer your question: If the Leafs won a Cup and Matthews finished 3rd in scoring with 1.2 PPG (especially after losing Tavares as a 2C) then, yes, we'd all be thrilled with his play. Let's not kid ourselves. And, of course context is important again...

The offseason before the Cup win, MacKinnon publicly challenged his players to take their diets seriously and reduce the amount of sugar intake. He also got into the best shape of his career. Both of these showed tremendous dedication and leadership, yet you fail to mention them on your quest to reduce Nate MacKinnon to a "passenger" during an impressive Cup win.

You also fail to mention that this season, the Avs were hoping to repeat, and MacKinnon scored 10 points and 7 goals in 7 GP (for 1.43 PPG). He also just scored 111 points in 71 games. We're talking about an absolute elite, world-class player here in MacKinnon. Trying to contaminate his Cup win is absurd.

 

[Divine]

Yes, he was 3rd in team scoring, but you're stretching it here. Makar was the clear best offensive performer for the Avs and Rantanen and MacKinnon were pretty much a wash and you know it. Rantanen scored 1 more point than MacKinnon in those 20 games lol. ONE. Both were well over a PPG (1.2 PPG for MacKinnon and 1.25 for Rantanen).

So, context is key here. Is it were...

Makar = 1.5 PPG
Rantanen = 1.25 PPG
MacKinnon = 0.88 PPG

... that's a lot different and would more accurately represent the point you are reaching to make. But that's simply not the case.

But to answer your question: If the Leafs won a Cup and Matthews finished 3rd in scoring with 1.2 PPG (especially after losing Tavares as a 2C) then, yes, we'd all be thrilled with his play. Let's not kid ourselves. And, of course context is important again...

The offseason before the Cup win, MacKinnon publicly challenged his players to take their diets seriously and reduce the amount of sugar intake. He also got into the best shape of his career. Both of these showed tremendous dedication and leadership, yet you fail to mention them on your quest to reduce Nate MacKinnon to a "passenger" during an impressive Cup win.

You also fail to mention that this season, the Avs were hoping to repeat, and MacKinnon scored 10 points and 7 goals in 7 GP (for 1.43 PPG). He also just scored 111 points in 71 games. We're talking about an absolute elite, world-class player here in MacKinnon. Trying to contaminate his Cup win is absurd.

The points per game isn't as relevant if the team plays a different style. That's why the position on the team is more accurate. Colorado was a high scoring all offense team, they had lots of players near a PPG during their run, 4 players over a PPG.

Mackinnon has a better PPG than Crosby in the playoffs because they played different games and different team styles. Not many people would say Mackinnon is better in the playoffs than Crosby.

 

[Legion34]

In Oiler circles, McDavid and Drai are already telling teammates they want to win there and are willing to take a discount. You need that type of culture.

1.) you have no idea if that is true
2.) pasta said he didn’t care how much money he makes and would play for free
3.) mackinnon said he would take a discount

Mcdavid we know did. Because he actually took less than he was offered Whether he will again is unknown.

 

[Mr Positive]

The points per game doesn't matter if the team plays a different style. That's why the position on the team is more relevant. Colorado was a high scoring all offense team, they had lots of players near a PPG during their run.

Mackinnon has a better PPG than Crosby because they played different games. Not many people would say Mackinnon is better in the playoffs than Crosby.

MacKinnon is considered among the very top tier in elite centers though. Crosby has 3 cups so he gets a ton of credit for that. It would hardly be surprising if MacKinnon looked better in a head to head matchup.

 

[Boxscore]

The points per game doesn't matter if the team plays a different style. That's why the position on the team is more relevant. Colorado was a high scoring all offense team.

Mackinnon has a better PPG than Crosby because they played different games. Not many people would say Mackinnon is better in the playoffs than Crosby.

I disagree. MacKinnon has been excellent in the playoffs. Crosby was also excellent at times. There were times Crosby was outplayed by Malkin the same way MacKinnon was outplayed by Makar. And, when the Leafs won their 1st Cup, Crosby didn't really play in the series-winning Game 7... a guy like Talbot was the hero of that. But you don't penalize Crosby for that because his team won their Cup(s) and he was a high contributor, even if not always the main.

Do you think Vegas wins without Marchessault or Barbashev this year? Nope. But a guy like Eichel still did his job and performed at a very high level, good enough to help secure a Cup.

Nobody is expecting Auston Matthews to put the team on his back and win a Cup single-handily. And lucky for him, he is surrounded with elite teammates... likely one of the most offensively-gifted cores in the East. But when he's scored 0.88 PPG in his playoff career -- and we've only won 1 round with him as our main superstar -- he needs to shoulder his share of the blame. The results, and his playoff production, speaks for itself... he can't hide from it and we can't sweep it under the carpet.

 

[PainForShane]

The points per game isn't as relevant if the team plays a different style. That's why the position on the team is more accurate. Colorado was a high scoring all offense team, they had lots of players near a PPG during their run, 4 players over a PPG.

Mackinnon has a better PPG than Crosby in the playoffs because they played different games and different team styles. Not many people would say Mackinnon is better in the playoffs than Crosby.

Bro, no one believes you. Definitely no one trusts you with all these bad faith arguments.

Moreover, I'm 100% sure you don't even believe yourself.

You should keep trying convincing the rest of us though, I for one am finding this discussion highly amusing / entertaining. Sincere thx for brightening up my wknd

 

[Divine]

Bro, no one believes you. I'm 100% sure you don't even believe yourself.

You should keep trying convincing the rest of us, I for one am finding this discussion highly amusing / entertaining. Sincere thx for brightening up my wknd

As amusing as your Lou would never sign Tavares take when he literally tried to for a higher amount? You disappeared after the facts were brought up in that one.

 

[Divine]

I disagree. MacKinnon has been excellent in the playoffs. Crosby was also excellent at times. There were times Crosby was outplayed by Malkin the same way MacKinnon was outplayed by Makar. And, when the Leafs won their 1st Cup, Crosby didn't really play in the series-winning Game 7... a guy like Talbot was the hero of that. But you don't penalize Crosby for that because his team won their Cup(s) and he was a high contributor, even if not always the main.

Do you think Vegas wins without Marchessault or Barbashev this year? Nope. But a guy like Eichel still did his job and performed at a very high level, good enough to help secure a Cup.

Nobody is expecting Auston Matthews to put the team on his back and win a Cup single-handily. And lucky for him, he is surrounded with elite teammates... likely one of the most offensively-gifted cores in the East. But when he's scored 0.88 PPG in his playoff career -- and we've only won 1 round with him as our main superstar -- he needs to shoulder his share of the blame. The results, and his playoff production, speaks for itself... he can't hide from it and we can't sweep it under the carpet.

No, but I'm not saying Colorado wins without Mackinnon either. I'm saying the Cup was not his alone. He did not carry the team to the Cup. He was third on the team in scoring, a very high scoring team where 4 players are above a PPG.

if Matthews is third on the team in scoring and they win a Cup, it should be similar. He shouldn't be penalized because he plays on a low scoring team in the playoffs. The Leafs seem to change their entire game in the playoffs to an all defensive structure, they're one of the best teams in goals against in the playoffs.

 

[Boxscore]

No, but I'm not saying Colorado wins without Mackinnon either. I'm saying the Cup was not his alone. He did not carry the team to the Cup. He was third on the team in scoring, a very high scoring team where 4 players are above a PPG.

if Matthews is third on the team in scoring and they win a Cup, it should be similar. He shouldn't be penalized because he plays on a low scoring team in the playoffs. The Leafs seem to change their entire game in the playoffs to an all defensive structure, they're one of the best teams in goals against in the playoffs.

1. Who ever said MacKinnon won the Cup by himself? I haven't seen that anywhere, ever.

2. I just answered your question about a scenario in which the Leafs win a Cup and Matthews is 3rd in scoring. Did you not see it?

3. The Leafs have won 1 round in 7 years. Are you disputing this fact?

4. The Leafs do not change their entire game in the playoffs, that's nonsense. Did you watch the games or just cherry pick stats? The Leafs were high octane, run and gun most times. Except Marner tried being way too cute and had horrific turnovers, and Matthews was reluctant to battle in the trenches and was more interested in hanging outside the fringe and trying to use his powerful shot. Unfortunately, this style of play doesn't win out long-term if other teams up their intensity, defense, and commitment... while our skilled players try to get by on their talent alone. That's what they've tried for years and they only have 1 round to show for it.

The Leafs play no different in the playoffs than they do in the regular season, there's no extra gear, which is a big problem. PK Subban said it best on the panel last year. He said in the playoffs teams always want to play the teams who are "easy to play against" and that's the Leafs. He was right. They are highly-skilled but they are creampuffs and have no extra gear in the postseason.

 

[hamzarocks]

This is nonsense. You're doing everything in your power to reduce MacKinnon to build up Matthews because he has 1 playoff win in 7 years.

During the Cup run, MacKinnon scored 24 points in 20 GP. That's still 1.2 PPG. Yes, Makar played out of his mind, but MacKinnon still delivered at a high level. And, of course you're also not considering that Kadri missed games and MacKinnon was the only high-end centerman the opposition had to focus on. If you are calling a player who scored 1.2 PPG during a Cup run in an all-important 1C role a "passenger" I cannot take you seriously tbh.

Are we going to somehow penalize MacKinnon because he has Makar, Rantanen, and Landeskog on his team? Yet, pretend Matthews hasn't been blessed with a star-studded cast in Marner, Tavares, Nylander, and Rielly? Really? Let's not make it sound like Matthews is 1986 Mario Lemieux who is stuck trying to carry his team all by himself.

Matthews career PPG in the playoffs is 0.88. This is a fact. He's also been surrounded by elite talent over the years and a future HHOF coach. Also a fact. And, other than Crosby with Malkin, I can't think of another recent champion 1C who actually had a 2C like Tavares to help shoulder the burden up the middle. Toews? Nope. Kopitar? Nope. Backstrom? I guess with Kuznetsov. Heck, last year Matthews had Tavares and a Conn Smythe winner in ROR to share duties up the middle. And, unlike Crosby who has often had to carry his line, Matthews always has an elite winger by his side. Honestly, there's zero excuses for Matthews' shortcomings in the playoffs... other than he's just come up rather small. Period.

Trying to diminish Nate MacKinnon in order to prop Matthews is an awful look.

Your arguing with walls

People seriously comparing Mackinnon in the playoffs to Matthews in the playoffs simpy due so to save face and can't accept our 1OA is in that Joe Thornton/Steven Stamkos mold of disapointing/underwhelming playoff production

 

[Boxscore]

As amusing as your Lou would never sign Tavares take when he literally tried to for a higher amount? You disappeared after the facts were brought up in that one.

I'm not answering for the other poster, but this is my personal opinion...

Lou endorsing a Tavares signing for the Leafs is a lot different than for the Islanders. Why? Simple.

Tavares was property of the Islanders. He was their captain and best player at the time. If you don't pay him, you lose him for absolutely nothing, and have a major hole at 1C. Losing a player like that for nothing could be disastrous. The Islanders signing Tavares was entirely different than the Leafs signing him. Ironically, the Isles won more once Tavares was gone.

Imho, there's zero chance that Lou (if with the Leafs) endorses paying Tavares 11 million on the open market when he already had a 1C in Matthews, a 2C in Kadri, and 3 core pieces to sign first. Now, would Lou have endorsed signing Tavares if he gave us a real nice discount (say 9 or 9.5 per?) Maybe. That's a completely different story and one which Lou could have parlayed into a narrative to persuade the young core to take less on their deals.

It's impossible to get your homegrown talent to settle for less when you literally just gave a UFA the 2nd largest cap hit in the NHL lol. The minute the Leafs paid JT 11 mil it was over... the kids and their agents were licking their chops and walking in with their hands out. Lou knows this. A child like Dubas, who was playing fantasy hockey with MLSE bankroll, did not. Or if he did, he ignored it for the opportunity to look like a hero among the fans. But signing Tavares to that contract was a horrible and short-sighted mistake the second it happened. So will be paying Matthews 13.5 x 4 if that's what ends up happening.

 

[Divine]

I'm not answering for the other poster, but this is my personal opinion...

Lou endorsing a Tavares signing for the Leafs is a lot different than for the Islanders. Why? Simple.

Tavares was property of the Islanders. He was their captain and best player at the time. If you don't pay him, you lose him for absolutely nothing, and have a major hole at 1C. Losing a player like that for nothing could be disastrous. The Islanders signing Tavares was entirely different than the Leafs signing him. Ironically, the Isles won more once Tavares was gone.

Imho, there's zero chance that Lou (if with the Leafs) endorses paying Tavares 11 million on the open market when he already had a 1C in Matthews, a 2C in Kadri, and 3 core pieces to sign first. Now, would Lou have endorsed signing Tavares if he gave us a real nice discount (say 9 or 9.5 per?) Maybe. That's a completely different story and one which Lou could have parlayed into a narrative to persuade the young core to take less on their deals.

It's impossible to get your homegrown talent to settle for less when you literally just gave a UFA the 2nd largest cap hit in the NHL lol. The minute the Leafs paid JT 11 mil it was over... the kids and their agents were licking their chops and walking in with their hands out. Lou knows this. A child like Dubas, who was playing fantasy hockey with MLSE bankroll, did not. Or if he did, he ignored it for the opportunity to look like a hero among the fans. But signing Tavares to that contract was a horrible and short-sighted mistake the second it happened. So will be paying Matthews 13.5 x 4 if that's what ends up happening.

If you believe that, then you're also justifying whatever the Leafs sign Matthews for - which is what this thread is about.

 

[PainForShane]

As amusing as your Lou would never sign Tavares take when he literally tried to for a higher amount? You disappeared after the facts were brought up in that one.

ha HA! Maybe so.

Actually the point was Lou (with the Leafs) wouldn't have signed Tavares. Because in Toronto, he already good forwards, just like I said above (and in the post), and just like @Boxscore clearly just explained above (thx Boxscore, that's not the summary I would've made but what you said made perfect sense).

If you or anyone else needs more explanation of the basic idea behind this, the idea's called willingness to pay Willingness to pay - Wikipedia

Still an obvious point, and still you are pretending to be dumb. Why am I not surprised.

***

And yes, both Boxscore and I thought / think Leafs need to pay Matthews whatever he wants, because no leverage and because the team is better with him than without him. We also both agreed neither of us was really happy about this situation.

***

However, this has nothing to do with Matthews being a "good" playoff performer, which he hasn't been. It looks like even Leafs fans are getting embarrassed by your continued efforts to defend this clearly horrible take.

FWIW, I'm a neutral and am definitely amused by your bad faith responses. So, I personally hope you continue posting here though I would understand it either way. Good luck convincing anyone of your continued nonsense

 

[Boxscore]

If you believe that, then you're also justifying whatever the Leafs sign Matthews for - which is what this thread is about.

I'm absolutely not. You aren't reading my posts. The Leafs still have the ability to trade Matthews if he insists on bending us over again. But that takes discipline and guts. Granted, it's not an easy trade to make. But Tavares slow-walking the Isles to the point where they get nothing is exactly why I've been adamant about my frustration with Matthews.

It's not fair to the organization that Matthews attitude appears to be, "Pay me what I want for how long I want or I'll take my ball and split next summer." This is not how a leader who loves his team and organization behaves. He is acting like a brat who knows he has the Leafs in a pickle and he's leveraging us. Screw that. If it comes to it, trade him. He has a NMC so you find 5-8 teams he's willing to accept a deal to and you move him. You won't get dollar-for-dollar value but you'll still get a decent haul and you'll be saving 13.5 million or whatever his silly demands are.

You seem to be convinced that Auston Matthews runs the Leafs and that you give him a blank check. This was the same attitude Dubas had with him and Marner. It hasn't worked.

 

[Divine]

I'm absolutely not. You aren't reading my posts. The Leafs still have the ability to trade Matthews if he insists on bending us over again. But that takes discipline and guts. Granted, it's not an easy trade to make. But Tavares slow-walking the Isles to the point where they get nothing is exactly why I've been adamant about my frustration with Matthews.

It's not fair to the organization that Matthews attitude appears to be, "Pay me what I want for how long I want or I'll take my ball and split next summer." This is not how a leader who loves his team and organization behaves. He is acting like a brat who knows he has the Leafs in a pickle and he's leveraging us. Screw that. If it comes to it, trade him. He has a NMC so you find 5-8 teams he's willing to accept a deal to and you move him. You won't get dollar-for-dollar value but you'll still get a decent haul and you'll be saving 13.5 million or whatever his silly demands are.

You seem to be convinced that Auston Matthews runs the Leafs and that you give him a blank check. This was the same attitude Dubas had with him and Marner. It hasn't worked.

No they don't, Matthews has a full NMC, just as Tavares did. He can say no to every trade and leave for nothing - which you just argued is more disastrous than signing him to any contract.

 

[Mr Positive]

I'm absolutely not. You aren't reading my posts. The Leafs still have the ability to trade Matthews if he insists on bending us over again. But that takes discipline and guts. Granted, it's not an easy trade to make. But Tavares slow-walking the Isles to the point where they get nothing is exactly why I've been adamant about my frustration with Matthews.

It's not fair to the organization that Matthews attitude appears to be, "Pay me what I want for how long I want or I'll take my ball and split next summer." This is not how a leader who loves his team and organization behaves. He is acting like a brat who knows he has the Leafs in a pickle and he's leveraging us. Screw that. If it comes to it, trade him. He has a NMC so you find 5-8 teams he's willing to accept a deal to and you move him. You won't get dollar-for-dollar value but you'll still get a decent haul and you'll be saving 13.5 million or whatever his silly demands are.

You seem to be convinced that Auston Matthews runs the Leafs and that you give him a blank check. This was the same attitude Dubas had with him and Marner. It hasn't worked.

is trading Matthews really something on the table? I could imagine maybe a deal for Werenski?

 

[HabzSauce]

1. Who ever said MacKinnon won the Cup by himself? I haven't seen that anywhere, ever.

2. I just answered your question about a scenario in which the Leafs win a Cup and Matthews is 3rd in scoring. Did you not see it?

3. The Leafs have won 1 round in 7 years. Are you disputing this fact?

4. The Leafs do not change their entire game in the playoffs, that's nonsense. Did you watch the games or just cherry pick stats? The Leafs were high octane, run and gun most times. Except Marner tried being way too cute and had horrific turnovers, and Matthews was reluctant to battle in the trenches and was more interested in hanging outside the fringe and trying to use his powerful shot. Unfortunately, this style of play doesn't win out long-term if other teams up their intensity, defense, and commitment... while our skilled players try to get by on their talent alone. That's what they've tried for years and they only have 1 round to show for it.

The Leafs play no different in the playoffs than they do in the regular season, there's no extra gear, which is a big problem. PK Subban said it best on the panel last year. He said in the playoffs teams always want to play the teams who are "easy to play against" and that's the Leafs. He was right. They are highly-skilled but they are creampuffs and have no extra gear in the postseason.

You said it perfectly lol MacKinnon is on another level. How in the world is Matthews even worth 8x12.6M?

Am I crazy for saying he should be making even LESS than he is right now on an 8 year? At best the same?

 

[Boxscore]

No they don't, Matthews has a full NMC, just as Tavares did. He can say no to every trade and leave for nothing - which you just argued is more disastrous than signing him to any contract.

Not exactly. Tavares didn't say no to any trades as far as I remember. He told the Islanders he had every intention on signing with them at season's end. They took him at his word and he played them. If I'm the Leafs, I don't give Matthews that luxury. I give him a hard deadline (which imho should have been 6/28 before the NMC kicked in). But, to your point, Matthews could truly screw us and not agree to any trade and leave on awful terms. And if he is the type of player who would do that, is he truly the type of player you want to build your team around? It's a hard decision but the Leafs put themselves in this situation. I just don't see how caving to Matthews and giving him everything he wants without comprise is healthy on multiple fronts. If Matthews truly wants to be a Leaf, he should prove it.

And, I never said that "him leaving for nothing is more disastrous than signing any contract." I simply said that Lou pushing to sign Tavares with the Islanders was much different than him pushing to sign him with the Leafs. And, even the Islanders had a limit on how much they would pay Tavares. Supposedly it was the Sharks who went off the rails and offered JT $13 mil a pop. The rumor was the Isles $11.5 and the Leafs obviously $11. Lou wasn't insane enough to pay Tavares $13.5 for him to stay on the Island.

Every player has a price. Do I think the Leafs blow it up with Matthews over 13.5 x 4? No. They will take the hit. But I personally think it is a mistake to not reset the culture right here, right now. We've seen enough. But I don't own the Leafs.