Rumor: Kyper: Dermott and Holl available for a trade

[TGB]

This is the Toronto media. Is it really a rumour or just wishful thinking?

 

[bossram]

After a pretty bad start, Leafs are reportedly open/looking to move Holl.

Except it wasn't just a bad start. The signs were there in the 2nd half of last season. I (and others) identified this and correctly pointed out that the Leafs should not have protected Holl in the expansion draft.

Do the people who think it was a better idea to protect Holl over McCann want a mea culpa?

 

[Puckstuff]

1. The Leafs don't have $1.25m more to spend on 3 players.

2. While having McCann & Hyman over Kerfoot & Ritchie would be nice, a reasonable person would not expect Bogosian over Holl in the context of a top 6 role to be an upgrade in any way/shape/form.

Yeah, it probably would've been nice to have McCann instead of Kerfoot given his offensive upside and reduced cap hit... but it's a bit of splitting hairs.

It’s more to illustrate how valuable 1.25 million in cap space is and picking the right guy is.

Kerfoot has been playing wing and McCaan is a better winger.

Hyman is in another stratosphere compared to Ritchie.


Holl regressing is hindsight. Bogosian is more physical and overall probably an equal #6.

To make all those judgement calls and correct decisions is another story. I’m just sick of people defending the Matthews/Marner over payments because an extra 1.25 million let’s you keep Hyman, McCaan in this scenario. Not saying they would have made all those decisions and been successful, obviously.

 

[The Podium]

After a pretty bad start, Leafs are reportedly open/looking to move Holl.

Except it wasn't just a bad start. The signs were there in the 2nd half of last season. I (and others) identified this and correctly pointed out that the Leafs should not have protected Holl in the expansion draft.

Do the people who think it was a better idea to protect Holl over McCann want a mea culpa?

You dont gamble on a prospect who hasnt been able to cut it in the NHL.

Its great that Lilly forced a good problem, but the Holl decision is an easy one to make only in hindsight.

 

[ACC1224]

It’s more to illustrate how valuable 1.25 million in cap space is and picking the right guy is.

Kerfoot has been playing wing and McCaan is a better winger.

Hyman is in another stratosphere compared to Ritchie.


Holl regressing is hindsight. Bogosian is more physical and overall probably an equal #6.

To make all those judgement calls and correct decisions is another story. I’m just sick of people defending the Matthews/Marner over payments because an extra 1.25 million let’s you keep Hyman, McCaan in this scenario. Not saying they would have made all those decisions and been successful, obviously.

He is easily but I don't think the Leafs had any interest in him for 8 years.

 

[kevsh]

He is easily but I don't think the Leafs had any interest in him for 8 years.

True, but like with all those long-term deals GMs insist it's the first 3-4 years that they are focused on. The Leafs are clearly in "win now" mode - as giving up that 1st last year for Foligno indicated - so he's the kind of guy you want to keep.

But as always, the commitment to the Big 4 has made everything else so difficult.

 

[ACC1224]

True, but like with all those long-term deals GMs insist it's the first 3-4 years that they are focused on. The Leafs are clearly in "win now" mode - as giving up that 1st last year for Foligno indicated - so he's the kind of guy you want to keep.

But as always, the commitment to the Big 4 has made everything else so difficult.

I'm sure more of a 'hockey GM' would have kept him and dealt with the consequence of the deal down the road.

 

[SprDaVE]

I was probably the biggest and more vocal Justin Holl defender of the past year or so. I still think it was the right choice to protect him for the expansion draft or to retain his services at the time. Especially when worst/similar defenseman were signing these huge 2M+ contracts a week or so after the expansion draft. Him and Muzzin were so steady and great defensively for the Leafs.

But he's been bad so far this season though. He looks completely out of shape and just doesn't seem like his smooth skating steady self. And then compare that to how good Liljegren has been... yeah.

I still think he's solid but can't deny he's been terrible so far this season and he fully deserves to sit.

 

[sparxx87]

I was probably the biggest and more vocal Justin Holl defender of the past year or so. I still think it was the right choice to protect him for the expansion draft or to retain his services at the time. Especially when worst/similar defenseman were signing these huge 2M+ contracts a week or so after the expansion draft. Him and Muzzin were so steady and great defensively for the Leafs.

But he's been bad so far this season though. He looks completely out of shape and just doesn't seem like his smooth skating steady self. And then compare that to how good Liljegren has been... yeah.

I still think he's solid but can't deny he's been terrible so far this season and he fully deserves to sit.

So do you now also understand those who didn’t like the idea of signing what was, at the time, an AHL journeyman with twenty-something NHL games to a $2M contract extension?

Dubas thought he could jump the gun and now he’s got another overpaid and underperforming player on his hands.

Who could have guessed?

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[seanlinden]

It’s more to illustrate how valuable 1.25 million in cap space is and picking the right guy is.

Kerfoot has been playing wing and McCaan is a better winger.

Hyman is in another stratosphere compared to Ritchie.


Holl regressing is hindsight. Bogosian is more physical and overall probably an equal #6.

To make all those judgement calls and correct decisions is another story. I’m just sick of people defending the Matthews/Marner over payments because an extra 1.25 million let’s you keep Hyman, McCaan in this scenario. Not saying they would have made all those decisions and been successful, obviously.

Yes, McCann is a better winger than Kerfoot... but Kerfoots ability to be a natural centre is something that the Leafs do place a large value on, even if they may never use it. David Kampf is somewhat of a black hole offensively. If Tavares or Matthews get hurt, Kerfoot becomes an extremely important member of the team.

In hindsight, yes, based on the 7 games Holl has played this year, it looks like hanging onto him may not have been the best idea... but it's only games, and he's only 29 years old. It's quite possible that he's simply having a really bad stretch.

As for Hyman, as other posters have mentioned, if Hyman was willing to sign a 2-year, $5.5m contract that's a complete no-brainer over Ritchie at $2.5m.... but there is the added issue of taking on Hyman for 8 years, where I think you can argue that the Leafs made the better move given all the information available to them.

 

[SprDaVE]

So do you now also understand those who didn’t like the idea of signing what was, at the time, an AHL journeyman with twenty-something NHL games to a $2M contract extension?

Dubas thought he could jump the gun and now he’s got another overpaid and underperforming player on his hands.

Who could have guessed?

He earned that contract. He was fine last year, if not good for most of the year. Not sure what you expect to pay mid/bottom pairing defenseman that play high defensive minutes like Holl. I don't think anyone expected him to regress to this level of struggling.

I'm fine admitting I was wrong about Holl though. Opinions can change based on new information. In hindsight, should have probably let Seattle take him if they were interested in doing so.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I was probably the biggest and more vocal Justin Holl defender of the past year or so. I still think it was the right choice to protect him for the expansion draft or to retain his services at the time. Especially when worst/similar defenseman were signing these huge 2M+ contracts a week or so after the expansion draft. Him and Muzzin were so steady and great defensively for the Leafs.

But he's been bad so far this season though. He looks completely out of shape and just doesn't seem like his smooth skating steady self. And then compare that to how good Liljegren has been... yeah.

I still think he's solid but can't deny he's been terrible so far this season and he fully deserves to sit.

I think he had like 60 games to his name at the time of the extension. I think he gambled to an extent on that 3 year deal that the cap would go up and Holl would progress. As it turns out, Muzzin was just a great acquisition that he made and was able to make his partner look better than he was. Every single time Muzzin hasn't been in the line up, Holl has not been NHL caliber.

On the plus side, their development of Liljegren appears to have paid off leaving a skeleton of;

Rielly-Brodie
Muzzin-X
Sandin-Liljegren

Depending on the partner you acquire, Brodie can flip flop between either pairing in the top 6 but I would think someone in a mold similar to Muzzin makes sense just to round out our skills in the defense.

In the early going, we were in need of some offense though and McCann would have helped and been great insurance against injury, I think Dubas & co. got it wrong on Holl protection in the summer. Natural stat trick suggested as much, Holl's metrics in minutes without Muzzin were abysmal but that's just public stuff

 

[Stephen]

I was probably the biggest and more vocal Justin Holl defender of the past year or so. I still think it was the right choice to protect him for the expansion draft or to retain his services at the time. Especially when worst/similar defenseman were signing these huge 2M+ contracts a week or so after the expansion draft. Him and Muzzin were so steady and great defensively for the Leafs.

But he's been bad so far this season though. He looks completely out of shape and just doesn't seem like his smooth skating steady self. And then compare that to how good Liljegren has been... yeah.

I still think he's solid but can't deny he's been terrible so far this season and he fully deserves to sit.

I think keeping Holl was the right move but with several asterisks attached to it.

-Leafs did themselves no favours adding Jared McCann so optically they got a big upgrade only to lose the upgrade. (McCann and Kerfoot were not interchangeable pieces) even if the net loss was only Hallander. McCann looks like exactly what this team needs up front. It's a PR loss.

-We still have Kerfoot, which doesn't feel like the best use of cap.

-Holl last year was good value at $2 million, but I think the brain trust needed to have a better grasp of how much of Holl's success was a direct result of Muzzin carrying him.

-Leafs needed a better sense of how good Liljegren is and shouldn't be as 'surprised' as the fanbase and media as they should have some additional insight there.

-If the Leafs move off Holl, we need to account for what his return is in a trade to close the loop on the whole sequence of asset management. If the return is great, then great! If not, then protecting Holl probably wasn't the best decision.

 

[Shooter2x]

Stop being loyal to your scrub depth players and give the hungry guys a chance. The Marchments and Verhaeghes will leave so that Miks and Engvalls and Holls can do ass in the playoffs instead. 6'4 220 pound Rubins is hungry for a chance. They'll trade him too to keep protecting crap players like Holl.

 

[LeafChief]

Holl to Seattle for Lauzon and a 4th.

 

[Apex Predator]

He earned that contract. He was fine last year, if not good for most of the year. Not sure what you expect to pay mid/bottom pairing defenseman that play high defensive minutes like Holl. I don't think anyone expected him to regress to this level of struggling.

I'm fine admitting I was wrong about Holl though. Opinions can change based on new information. In hindsight, should have probably let Seattle take him if they were interested in doing so.

If the Leafs went 7-3-1 at the expansion draft I think they end up taking Dermott.

 

[Polaris1010]

You dont gamble on a prospect who hasnt been able to cut it in the NHL.

Its great that Lilly forced a good problem, but the Holl decision is an easy one to make only in hindsight.

You don't play someone who don't belong.

Holl is not an NHL defenseman.

That was so clear since day 1.

This is just another gaffe in a long list of the management team misjudging what they had.

 

[The Podium]

You don't play someone who don't belong.

Holl is not an NHL defenseman.

That was so clear since day 1.

This is just another gaffe in a long list of the management team misjudging what they had.

Holl was most definitely an NHL D man, and very effective, for a couple of years. Prove that he wasn’t.

 

[ottomaddox]

This is the Toronto media. Is it really a rumour or just wishful thinking?

It's really a rumour.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

It's funny because you are actually criticizing Dubas for being the highest bidder for both McCann and Weegar. No GM offered more for them than Dubas did.

We don’t have any guarantees on the kind of information you’re just assuming to be true here.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I think keeping Holl was the right move but with several asterisks attached to it.

-Leafs did themselves no favours adding Jared McCann so optically they got a big upgrade only to lose the upgrade. (McCann and Kerfoot were not interchangeable pieces) even if the net loss was only Hallander. McCann looks like exactly what this team needs up front. It's a PR loss.

-We still have Kerfoot, which doesn't feel like the best use of cap.

-Holl last year was good value at $2 million, but I think the brain trust needed to have a better grasp of how much of Holl's success was a direct result of Muzzin carrying him.

-Leafs needed a better sense of how good Liljegren is and shouldn't be as 'surprised' as the fanbase and media as they should have some additional insight there.

-If the Leafs move off Holl, we need to account for what his return is in a trade to close the loop on the whole sequence of asset management. If the return is great, then great! If not, then protecting Holl probably wasn't the best decision.

Well written.

 

[Confucius]

Confucius: Anybody available for the right deal....

 

[Bluelines]

I think keeping Holl was the right move but with several asterisks attached to it.

-Leafs did themselves no favours adding Jared McCann so optically they got a big upgrade only to lose the upgrade. (McCann and Kerfoot were not interchangeable pieces) even if the net loss was only Hallander. McCann looks like exactly what this team needs up front. It's a PR loss.

-We still have Kerfoot, which doesn't feel like the best use of cap.

-Holl last year was good value at $2 million, but I think the brain trust needed to have a better grasp of how much of Holl's success was a direct result of Muzzin carrying him.

-Leafs needed a better sense of how good Liljegren is and shouldn't be as 'surprised' as the fanbase and media as they should have some additional insight there.

-If the Leafs move off Holl, we need to account for what his return is in a trade to close the loop on the whole sequence of asset management. If the return is great, then great! If not, then protecting Holl probably wasn't the best decision.

Things that are the "right move" don't need asterisks next to them.. right moves don't require disclaimers.

It was wrong to keep Holl (-7 in 7GP and yes I get how +/- is not the greatest stat but it is directionally a proxy stat for quality of play) over McCann (3G,4A in 8GP), it was wrong to keep Kerfoot past the day after our season ended last year.

 

[LeafChief]

You don't play someone who don't belong.

Holl is not an NHL defenseman.

That was so clear since day 1.

This is just another gaffe in a long list of the management team misjudging what they had.

Holl is certainly an NHL defenceman.