Rumor: Kyper: Dermott and Holl available for a trade

[13pacheco31]

2m contracts is peanuts for RHD in this league, even as a #5 or 6 guy.



You wouldve been comfortable gambling on changing half our D core after they had a very successful season?

His body of work at that point wasn't enough to justify that. He's 29, just recently broke into the league and hadn't played a full 82 game season. It's easy to have a hot start on a shortened season in a 7 team division

 

[The Podium]

His body of work at that point wasn't enough to justify that. He's 29, just recently broke into the league and hadn't played a full 82 game season. It's easy to have a hot start on a shortened season in a 7 team division

He signed in December of 2019....

This is year 2 of his 3 year deal, meaning he goes into next season as a pending UFA.

He also played 2 full seasons as Toronto's #4 guy, even if last season was a COVID shortened season

 

[13pacheco31]

He signed in December of 2019....

This is year 2 of his 3 year deal, meaning he goes into next season as a pending UFA.

He also played 2 full seasons as Toronto's #4 guy, even if last season was a COVID shortened season

He only played less than 40 games when he signed his contract and in 19/20 he played well at the start and fell off in the second half of the season. He came back the next season in an odd situation. It was inevitable that he wasn't as good as everyone thought he was

 

[Bluelines]

I would have preferred to have kept McCann and lost Kerfoot as my ideal scenario. Keep Holl cause you don’t know what you have in Liljegren. Ok fine. I’m not a Dubas fan and I have plenty of criticism to float his way, but Hallander and a 7th at that time is less value going out the door than Justin Holl.

The sad thing is at the time we protected Holl, we didn't have one prospect that was ready to take bottom 3 minutes? That is an inditement on the Shannyplan. Again it was not a decision between Hallander/pick or Holl, it was a decision between Holl or McCann. Hallander and the pick were already out the door at the time Seattle made its pick.

 

[Nylanderthal]

The sad thing is at the time we protected Holl, we didn't have one prospect that was ready to take bottom 3 minutes? That is an inditement on the Shannyplan. Again it was not a decision between Hallander/pick or Holl, it was a decision between Holl or McCann. Hallander and the pick were already out the door at the time Seattle made its pick.

They had two young guys ready to push into everyday usage, but you still want them to force their way into the lineup and you want to insulate them.
If they went 7-3-1 and lost Holl and neither Swede was ready for every day use you and the rest of the rainy day crew would be complaining how “Dubass left them thin on the back end, won’t wonderboy ever learn?” This was and is and always will be the correct move.

 

[justloveleafs]

I was the first to champion Holl on another hockey board. Still like him, but I LOVE lILJEGREN...

And Sandin seems to love playing with his best friend..

Hell, er sorry, HOLL, who wouldn't love playing with his best in the biggest hockey show on earth....

Holl can still play, he needs a much better haircut, but he can still play...

But to get obtuse NHL gm's to pay a decent price, Holl has to be played....

It will prickle Lilly, but its a business....Holl has to be displayed and what if he plays outstanding hockey, well, hah you have a nice problem...

 

[sparxx87]

They had two young guys ready to push into everyday usage, but you still want them to force their way into the lineup and you want to insulate them.
If they went 7-3-1 and lost Holl and neither Swede was ready for every day use you and the rest of the rainy day crew would be complaining how “Dubass left them thin on the back end, won’t wonderboy ever learn?” This was and is and always will be the correct move.

Cognitive dissonance. The mental conflict that occurs when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information. The unease or tension that the conflict arouses in people is relieved by one of several defensive maneuvers: they reject, explain away, or avoid the new information; persuade themselves that no conflict really exists; reconcile the differences; or resort to any other defensive means of preserving stability or order in their conceptions of the world and of themselves.

 

[Stephen]

The sad thing is at the time we protected Holl, we didn't have one prospect that was ready to take bottom 3 minutes? That is an inditement on the Shannyplan. Again it was not a decision between Hallander/pick or Holl, it was a decision between Holl or McCann. Hallander and the pick were already out the door at the time Seattle made its pick.

My man. Like I have said, the Leafs expansion play was somewhat complicated and involved a lot of permutations.

In the end, they escaped by giving up less value off the organization with the McCann bait and switch, but they deserve criticism for not having a better grasp of Liljegren and Sandin's pro level readiness (which looks good). If they had an even better sense of their internal defensive options, maybe they would have made a smarter play up front.

Losing only Hallander and a 7th is probably a base hit. If they had been able to keep McCann and lose Kerfoot, that would have been the home run for me.

Finally, the whole loop closes if and when they move off Justin Holl and we have a good tally of what they get back and what they do with the cap space.

 

[Bluelines]

They had two young guys ready to push into everyday usage, but you still want them to force their way into the lineup and you want to insulate them.
If they went 7-3-1 and lost Holl and neither Swede was ready for every day use you and the rest of the rainy day crew would be complaining how “Dubass left them thin on the back end, won’t wonderboy ever learn?” This was and is and always will be the correct move.

... so the option was to keep a D man who only played well with Muzzin, his stats away from Muzzin are bad. That should probably tell even the casual observer that Holl had some really BIG red flags. Bottom sheltered minutes were all Sandin and Lilly were going to get with or without Holl in the lineup I think most average Leaf fans knew this. Lily was drafted 4 years ago, you know what you have in him and you know Sandin was NHL ready for bottom pairing. Not sure why you doubt their ability to take bottom pairing minutes. Perhaps you are not good at assessing hockey skills?

I'm not sure where you get off calling me part of the rainy day crowd. Lets keep to debating the topic and not devolving into immature name calling or applying stupid labels to each other, OK?

 

[Bluelines]

Cognitive dissonance. The mental conflict that occurs when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information. The unease or tension that the conflict arouses in people is relieved by one of several defensive maneuvers: they reject, explain away, or avoid the new information; persuade themselves that no conflict really exists; reconcile the differences; or resort to any other defensive means of preserving stability or order in their conceptions of the world and of themselves.

If you are inferring that my current position on the expansion draft is a result of cognitive dissonance, you're simply wrong. I posted many times that I wanted to keep McCann and leave Holl unprotected.

What it is when someone misdiagnoses a situation, uses a medical term incorrectly, as a result of not gathering all the facts, before they determine if use of said medical condition is pertinent?

 

[sparxx87]

If you are inferring that my current position on the expansion draft is a result of cognitive dissonance, you're simply wrong. I posted many times that I wanted to keep McCann and leave Holl unprotected.

What it is when someone misdiagnoses a situation, uses a medical term incorrectly, as a result of not gathering all the facts, before they determine if use of said medical condition is pertinent?

Nah, I didn't quote you. You good.

I didn't follow all the expansion rules so I don't know enough to effectively critique or praise how they worked the situation... All I know is that I hoped they'd find a way to send Kerfoot to Seattle, was excited by the McCann acquisition, then quickly disappointed again to learn they lost him to expansion and still ended up with Alex Kerfoot.

 

[Havoc]

It makes zero sense to protect Holl and then broadcast him to the trade block less than 10 games into the season.

That more suggests Dubas knows he made a mistake and is cutting bait quick. I respect that. A lot of other GMS would put their ego first, keep Liljegren out the lineup and give Holl a full 50 game leash of sucking.

Ah well, without the McCann trade we'd still be short one of Dermott Holl or Kerfoot, and all 3 are worth more than what we paid for McCann. So as long as we break even on what we paid for McCann when we ship out Holl or Dermott, there's really nothing to argue about here.

 

[Shooter2x]

My man. Like I have said, the Leafs expansion play was somewhat complicated and involved a lot of permutations.

In the end, they escaped by giving up less value off the organization with the McCann bait and switch, but they deserve criticism for not having a better grasp of Liljegren and Sandin's pro level readiness (which looks good). If they had an even better sense of their internal defensive options, maybe they would have made a smarter play up front.

Losing only Hallander and a 7th is probably a base hit. If they had been able to keep McCann and lose Kerfoot, that would have been the home run for me.

Finally, the whole loop closes if and when they move off Justin Holl and we have a good tally of what they get back and what they do with the cap space.

It makes zero sense to protect Holl and then broadcast him to the trade block less than 10 games into the season.

That more suggests Dubas knows he made a mistake and is cutting bait quick. I respect that. A lot of other GMS would put their ego first, keep Liljegren out the lineup and give Holl a full 50 game leash of sucking.

Ah well, without the McCann trade we'd still be short one of Dermott Holl or Kerfoot, and all 3 are worth more than what we paid for McCann. So as long as we break even on what we paid for McCann when we ship out Holl or Dermott, there's really nothing to argue about here.

I enjoy these 2 posts the most on the situation. But they expose horrible, very horrible player evaluation. Less than 10 games to "cut bait" and Liljegren needed 1 game to make the team. One damn game. How do you not know he's that close? Keep McCann.

 

[jaric1862]

With Mrazek injured the leafs have a bit more time to make a move

 

[Buds17]

It makes zero sense to protect Holl and then broadcast him to the trade block less than 10 games into the season.

That more suggests Dubas knows he made a mistake and is cutting bait quick. I respect that. A lot of other GMS would put their ego first, keep Liljegren out the lineup and give Holl a full 50 game leash of sucking.

Ah well, without the McCann trade we'd still be short one of Dermott Holl or Kerfoot, and all 3 are worth more than what we paid for McCann. So as long as we break even on what we paid for McCann when we ship out Holl or Dermott, there's really nothing to argue about here.

It didn't necessarily have to be an either/or situation with Holl and Liljegren though. I was initially quite surprised that Holl was removed from the lineup instead of Dermott considering how much more - and more often - the former was being utilized in comparison. That's not to say that decision was incorrect as Dermott is playing better (and is younger and cheaper)...I just found that the opinions of Keefe and Dubas on Holl seemed to sour rather quickly and significantly.

 

[Nylanderthal]

... so the option was to keep a D man who only played well with Muzzin, his stats away from Muzzin are bad. That should probably tell even the casual observer that Holl had some really BIG red flags. Bottom sheltered minutes were all Sandin and Lilly were going to get with or without Holl in the lineup I think most average Leaf fans knew this. Lily was drafted 4 years ago, you know what you have in him and you know Sandin was NHL ready for bottom pairing. Not sure why you doubt their ability to take bottom pairing minutes. Perhaps you are not good at assessing hockey skills?

I'm not sure where you get off calling me part of the rainy day crowd. Lets keep to debating the topic and not devolving into immature name calling or applying stupid labels to each other, OK?

So you suggest coming into a make or break season with a D core that has dermott Sandin & liljegren all penned in ink is a better move than having holl a 6’4” right shot D at 2m to help insulate of even one guy wasn’t capable? This is a good problem to have fallen into by having too many capable D.

 

[ottomaddox]

I don't blame Dubas at all for protecting Holl.

He obviously didn't know at the time that Liljegren was turning a corner, Sandin also turning a corner, and a few people on the Marlies that can fill in.

Holl and Dermott on the trade block is a vote of confidence for many players.

 

[Polaris1010]

I don't blame Dubas at all for protecting Holl.

He obviously didn't know at the time that Liljegren was turning a corner, Sandin also turning a corner, and a few people on the Marlies that can fill in.

Holl and Dermott on the trade block is a vote of confidence for many players.

Then what exactly are the role of the GM and the coach?

Those two have to know their players.

Sitting Liljegren and playing Holl, a few games ago, that was simply outrageous.

Even last year it was evident Liljegren had more talent and potential than Holl. How is the organization's 1st round draft choice going to realize that when they sit him.

Decisions like that gives people the clear impression that those who run things downtown are incompetent.

 

[yubbers]

Lily is doing much better than I expected. He clearly worked on strength and plays far less scared. Sandin has always been ahead of him imho but I'm glad to see him getting over the fear hump.

 

[ottomaddox]

Then what exactly are the role of the GM and the coach?

Those two have to know their players.

Sitting Liljegren and playing Holl, a few games ago, that was simply outrageous.

Even last year it was evident Liljegren had more talent and potential than Holl. How is the organization's 1st round draft choice going to realize that when they sit him.

Decisions like that gives people the clear impression that those who run things downtown are incompetent.

No. This kind of thing happens all the time in pro sports.

I don't think Liljegren and Sandin took it personally. What is the role of the coach and GM? Answer: To tinker with the roster. This kind of thing happens usually early in the season.

 

[seanlinden]

The sad thing is at the time we protected Holl, we didn't have one prospect that was ready to take bottom 3 minutes? That is an inditement on the Shannyplan. Again it was not a decision between Hallander/pick or Holl, it was a decision between Holl or McCann. Hallander and the pick were already out the door at the time Seattle made its pick.

Absolutely... but it wasn't that simple.

The Leafs could not afford to keep both Kerfoot & McCann. They liked what they had in Kerfoot, especially what he showed in the playoffs with Tavares out.

If Holl goes, then the Leafs are tasked with finding a #4 defenceman for the right side, with somewhere between $2m (McCann out, sign Ritchie) and $3.1m (Kerfoot out, spend $2m on a winger), with one of Kerfoot/McCann to use as bait.

If McCann goes in the XD, then the Leafs simply have the ~$2.5m they spent on Ritchie to find another LW.

Could it be proven to be the wrong decision? if Holl's poor play from the first 7 games of the year is a solid indication, then, yes, absolutely.... but for all the people ragging on the move (especially because McCann has started so well in Seattle), there haven't been a lot of suggestions of how the Leafs would replace Holl in their top 4 with the information available during the offseason.

There's also the consideration -- if Kerfoot is gone and McCann stays (which is a jusifiable move, I think McCann's a better winger than Kerfoot is, cheaper too) -- can you afford to make David Kampf the team's 3rd line C, knowing what that'll mean if either Tavares/Matthews get hurt. If somebody better is required, there is of course cap considerations there.

 

[JEI]

Trade Holl, keep Dermott. Call up Biega to be the 7th defender. Clear some of the log-jam on the Marlies.

 

[Havoc]

It didn't necessarily have to be an either/or situation with Holl and Liljegren though. I was initially quite surprised that Holl was removed from the lineup instead of Dermott considering how much more - and more often - the former was being utilized in comparison. That's not to say that decision was incorrect as Dermott is playing better (and is younger and cheaper)...I just found that the opinions of Keefe and Dubas on Holl seemed to sour rather quickly and significantly.

Not saying it was 1 or the other, just a possible example of a negative that could have occurred if they became stubborn with Holl. I like that they pulled the plug fast and are actively dealing with the situation in ways that are helping the team.

 

[Knies iT]

Been wanting Miles Wood in blue for years.

His speed and forechecking would mesh extremely well on the shutdown 3rd line to create quick strike counter offense given their zone starts being tilted heavily to the d-zone. IMO that line needs an explosive skater with better finish than Mik/Engvall.

Could see them having interest in Holl given that Ty Smith is currently playing his off-side on the 3rd pair and his partner White recently cleared waivers.

Holl + Mikheyev could be a basis for a deal (swap of current LTIR players + 3rd pair solution) where Toronto upgrades a rental Mikheyev for an RFA with more physicality and finish.

Leaves about ~1m in cap space for flexibility + whatever minor sweetener NJD potentially adds and subtracts nothing from the current roster of active players.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

No. This kind of thing happens all the time in pro sports.

I don't think Liljegren and Sandin took it personally. What is the role of the coach and GM? Answer: To tinker with the roster. This kind of thing happens usually early in the season.

Holls trade value was at its peak in summer. Defenceman were very expensive. This whole situation is a fail. They should have already identified after the second embarrassing playoff loss in a row that Holl in the top 4 will cost them playoff rounds until they fix it.

Now they're trying to do what they should have done in summer and on top of that Holl played like trash and slashed his trade value.

Early 21/22 is already too late. You need to make these decisions after you choke a series away to underdogs. Leafs are up close and personal with their prospects they should have a hunch Lil is close so can take a risk trading Holl now (or keeping McCann or something equivalent ). It would have been the right call and the call you need to have instincts to make. We have everything we need right now to prove it.

People want this killer instinct team but shy away from actual killer instinct decisions.