Rumor: Kyper: Dermott and Holl available for a trade

[justloveleafs]

I think its pretty unanimous, we all wanted McCann... Before he put up the really nice numbers.

But hey I wanted Mason Marchment also...

I sat for most of the season beside my old best friend who became the youngest GM in NHL history for the LEAFS.

I saw him bring up a guy from the Marlies who was the captain of them, the guy got three points in three games seemed to be a really good player and my buddy said to me when I asked about him, he said, he is not an NHL player..

Well that wasn't my eye test at all..

I said nothing..

Then he traded my favourite Leaf for John Kordic..

i kept my mouth shut shut again, but I stopped going to games after that..

Lot of inside games and politics in the NHL... Didn't sit well with me then still doesn't..

I could find out all kinds of inside crap around our team and others.. Not interested, my life is complicated enough, I just want to watch good hockey...

Pretty sure the team was pretty pumped Morgan Rielly was re upped... Very, very well liked player by the guys out there on the ice..

I dont need inside info to determine that....

 

[ottomaddox]

Holls trade value was at its peak in summer. Defenceman were very expensive. This whole situation is a fail. They should have already identified after the second embarrassing playoff loss in a row that Holl in the top 4 will cost them playoff rounds until they fix it.

Now they're trying to do what they should have done in summer and on top of that Holl played like trash and slashed his trade value.

Early 21/22 is already too late. You need to make these decisions after you choke a series away to underdogs. Leafs are up close and personal with their prospects they should have a hunch Lil is close so can take a risk trading Holl now (or keeping McCann or something equivalent ). It would have been the right call and the call you need to have instincts to make. We have everything we need right now to prove it.

People want this killer instinct team but shy away from actual killer instinct decisions.

I don't agree and I think you're playing Perfection Standards/Hindsight GM here. I don't think that TOR's best GMs of the past had "killer instinct". For instance I don't think that Fletcher asking for Darren Puppa to be included in a trade for Dave Andreychuck was "killer instinct". It just happened to work out, and BUF was really desperate for a #1 goalie at the time.

 

[aingefan]

Any update on actual rumours?

 

[seanlinden]

Holls trade value was at its peak in summer. Defenceman were very expensive. This whole situation is a fail. They should have already identified after the second embarrassing playoff loss in a row that Holl in the top 4 will cost them playoff rounds until they fix it.

Now they're trying to do what they should have done in summer and on top of that Holl played like trash and slashed his trade value.

Early 21/22 is already too late. You need to make these decisions after you choke a series away to underdogs. Leafs are up close and personal with their prospects they should have a hunch Lil is close so can take a risk trading Holl now (or keeping McCann or something equivalent ). It would have been the right call and the call you need to have instincts to make. We have everything we need right now to prove it.

People want this killer instinct team but shy away from actual killer instinct decisions.

Even if the Leafs believed in Liljegren (which if they didn't, they should have traded him about a year and a half ago) as well as Sandin, there was absolutely no reason to get rid of Holl last summer.

Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie are / were locks for the top 4. Holl was by far the best fit for that #4 position, given that he has size and is a right shot. If Liljegren comes in and cements himself as a #4 (which he still hasn't done) -- great, let him knock Holl out of the top 4, and have Holl play with Sandin on the 3rd pair.

Yes, great teams / management need to have a killer instinct. They need to think 3 moves ahead, and take risks in order to maximize value. Having a 6-man blueline that has Morgan Rielly, Travis Dermott, Rasmus Sandin, an Timothy Liljegren on it doesn't make a lot of sense. They all play very similar styles / do the same things. If they were thinking far enough ahead, they would have traded Travis Dermott.

The reason they didn't of course, is for one of two potential reasons:

1 - They didn't want to completely pigeon-holed next year if Morgan Rielly walks (as putting Dermott into Rielly's spot could enable them to shop for a different type of defenceman to replace him)

2- They perhaps did not fully believe in both Sandin & Liljegren.

When you consistently "wait and see" -- you lose opportunities to better your team. No different than waiting until Nylander put up a second 60-point season to negotiate his extension, or waiting for Marner to put up a 94 point season to sign for $11m x 6, whereas he would have been thrilled with $9m x 8 a year prior.

Similarly, if the Leafs had "decided" they really wanted Jared McCann instead of Alex Kerfoot, they may have made different decisions with respect to the XD to make that happen. It's highly likely that McCann would be more effective on JT's wing than Kerfoot has been, and there's $550k in cap savings that may have opened up additional opportunities as well.

However, if JT or Matthews get hurt, then the Leafs would have likely really missed Kerfoot as I believe Kerfoot is a much better centre than McCann is. It's almost an example of the Leafs hedging their bets / betting against themselves.

 

[al secord]

Any update on actual rumours?

We're still waiting for Kypreos to pull something else out of his ass.

 

[Mess]

What I do find odd about this situation is ..

Every team needs depth due to injuries and illness throughout the course of a season, and Dmen are valuable resources particularly RHD shooting ones, so why are the Leafs so fast on the trading trigger to dump one in trade?

Most teams wouldn't consider their #7 dman expendable, so there must be more here behind this story.

I get the having a $2 mil Dmen as a healthy scratch is poor cap management, but ....... One injury and Holl would be tossed back into the Leafs line-up as a regular and if dealt unless its for another Dman then its a Marlie Dman getting the call and regular spot instead.

 

[13pacheco31]

What I do find odd about this situation is ..

Every team needs depth due to injuries and illness throughout the course of a season, and Dmen are valuable resources particularly RHD shooting ones, so why are the Leafs so fast on the trading trigger to dump one in trade?

Most teams wouldn't consider their #7 dman expendable, so there must be more here behind this story.

I get the having a $2 mil Dmen as a healthy scratch is poor cap management, but ....... One injury and Holl would be tossed back into the Leafs line-up as a regular and if dealt unless its for another Dman then its a Marlie Dman getting the call and regular spot instead.

They must believe that on of their guys in the minors is capable of jumping in the lineup in case of injury

 

[ACC1224]

What I do find odd about this situation is ..

Every team needs depth due to injuries and illness throughout the course of a season, and Dmen are valuable resources particularly RHD shooting ones, so why are the Leafs so fast on the trading trigger to dump one in trade?

Most teams wouldn't consider their #7 dman expendable, so there must be more here behind this story.

I get the having a $2 mil Dmen as a healthy scratch is poor cap management, but ....... One injury and Holl would be tossed back into the Leafs line-up as a regular and if dealt unless its for another Dman then its a Marlie Dman getting the call and regular spot instead.

I don't think you're really losing much if anything by calling up a Marlie and moving Holl out.
Seems inevitable that this will happen.

 

[LeafChief]

I think the idea would be to move Holl (2 million) out for a D that makes 1 million or less + a draft pick (mid round).

Someone like Lauzon out of Seattle would be a great swap.

 

[Mess]

They must believe that on of their guys in the minors is capable of jumping in the lineup in case of injury

Agreed that would be their only option, but then why protect Holl in the expansion draft, if you thought you had better players already in the organization to replace him? That would be the very reason you would expose him.

By protecting Holl at the expense of McCann (& Kerfoot, Engvall etc and others exposed), they must now believe the return from Holl in trade would be >> players they exposed.

Holl goes from too valuable to lose, to too expensive to keep, so I'm trying to figure out the thought process behind all this by Leaf management.

 

[ottomaddox]

We're still waiting for Kypreos to pull something else out of his ass.

Who are your sources? Are you a Friedman guy? I sure hope not.

 

[Griffin76]

What I do find odd about this situation is ..

Every team needs depth due to injuries and illness throughout the course of a season, and Dmen are valuable resources particularly RHD shooting ones, so why are the Leafs so fast on the trading trigger to dump one in trade?

Most teams wouldn't consider their #7 dman expendable, so there must be more here behind this story.

I get the having a $2 mil Dmen as a healthy scratch is poor cap management, but ....... One injury and Holl would be tossed back into the Leafs line-up as a regular and if dealt unless its for another Dman then its a Marlie Dman getting the call and regular spot instead.

I'm guessing that both sides are looking to do what's best for the player. Not saying Holl has asked for a trade but maybe hinted at one

 

[SprDaVE]

Agreed that would be their only option, but then why protect Holl in the expansion draft, if you thought you had better players already in the organization to replace him? That would be the very reason you would expose him.

By protecting Holl at the expense of McCann (& Kerfoot, Engvall etc and others exposed), they must now believe the return from Holl in trade would be >> players they exposed.

Holl goes from too valuable to lose, to too expense to keep, so I'm trying to figure out the thought process behind all this by Leaf management.

I don't think they expected for Liljegren to be *this* good. They are being pro-active and they probably see an opportunity to open more cap space instead of not having much of any.

Sometimes a young player forces your hand. It happens.

 

[ACC1224]

Agreed that would be their only option, but then why protect Holl in the expansion draft, if you thought you had better players already in the organization to replace him? That would be the very reason you would expose him.

By protecting Holl at the expense of McCann (& Kerfoot, Engvall etc and others exposed), they must now believe the return from Holl in trade would be >> players they exposed.

Holl goes from too valuable to lose, to too expense to keep, so I'm trying to figure out the thought process behind all this by Leaf management.

That would be your first mistake.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Holls trade value was at its peak in summer. Defenceman were very expensive. This whole situation is a fail. They should have already identified after the second embarrassing playoff loss in a row that Holl in the top 4 will cost them playoff rounds until they fix it.

Now they're trying to do what they should have done in summer and on top of that Holl played like trash and slashed his trade value.

Early 21/22 is already too late. You need to make these decisions after you choke a series away to underdogs. Leafs are up close and personal with their prospects they should have a hunch Lil is close so can take a risk trading Holl now (or keeping McCann or something equivalent ). It would have been the right call and the call you need to have instincts to make. We have everything we need right now to prove it.

People want this killer instinct team but shy away from actual killer instinct decisions.

“Killer instinct” by a gm is NOT having two rookies and a dermott permanently in ink on the opening night blueline in what is a make or break season.
Having quality depth in critical spots is what I call killer instinct

 

[13pacheco31]

Agreed that would be their only option, but then why protect Holl in the expansion draft, if you thought you had better players already in the organization to replace him? That would be the very reason you would expose him.

By protecting Holl at the expense of McCann (& Kerfoot, Engvall etc and others exposed), they must now believe the return from Holl in trade would be >> players they exposed.

Holl goes from too valuable to lose, to too expense to keep, so I'm trying to figure out the thought process behind all this by Leaf management.

A reevaluation on their talent after training camp would be my guess

 

[mydnyte]

I think its pretty unanimous, we all wanted McCann... Before he put up the really nice numbers.

But hey I wanted Mason Marchment also...

I sat for most of the season beside my old best friend who became the youngest GM in NHL history for the LEAFS.

I saw him bring up a guy from the Marlies who was the captain of them, the guy got three points in three games seemed to be a really good player and my buddy said to me when I asked about him, he said, he is not an NHL player..

Well that wasn't my eye test at all..

I said nothing..

Then he traded my favourite Leaf for John Kordic..

i kept my mouth shut shut again, but I stopped going to games after that..

Lot of inside games and politics in the NHL... Didn't sit well with me then still doesn't..

I could find out all kinds of inside crap around our team and others.. Not interested, my life is complicated enough, I just want to watch good hockey...

Pretty sure the team was pretty pumped Morgan Rielly was re upped... Very, very well liked player by the guys out there on the ice..

I dont need inside info to determine that....

i still suspect there was a bad connection, (or a mini-stroke) and he thought he heard Corson rather than Kordic

 

[IPS]

I don't think they expected for Liljegren to be *this* good. They are being pro-active and they probably see an opportunity to open more cap space instead of not having much of any.

Sometimes a young player forces your hand. It happens.

Well to some of us - it was only a matter of time before Holl showed the caliber of D he was. He had good stretches but a lot of bad stretches (too many).

We didn't even get early season Holl this year (years prior he started the first 15-20 games looking pretty good), he came straight out of the gate in midseason form looking like complete garbage.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

We need a 3rd pairing dman that can throw the body. More banter after the game

 

[Stigma]

Something not talked about very much in this thread - I wonder how much Matthews' telling off Holl repeatedly in the game a few weeks back had an impact on all of this. For all we know, Matthews may have approached Dubas about Holl. That game where Holl was yelled at was Holl's last game.

 

[Antropovsky]

Something not talked about very much in this thread - I wonder how much Matthews' telling off Holl repeatedly in the game a few weeks back had an impact on all of this. For all we know, Matthews may have approached Dubas about Holl. That game where Holl was yelled at was Holl's last game.

I doubt he talked to Dubas about it. There is no way Matthews is running the team to that level. Must suck for Holl, work so hard to get to the NHL and then become complacent and lose it as suddenly as he did.

 

[bossram]

You wouldve been comfortable gambling on changing half our D core after they had a very successful season?

How is swapping out Holl for Liljegren "changing half our D core"?

Your arguments are just falling flat. The signs of Holl's decline were already in motion and the Leafs should have protected the better player. They had (cheap) internal fill-in options.

 

[forecheck]

Something not talked about very much in this thread - I wonder how much Matthews' telling off Holl repeatedly in the game a few weeks back had an impact on all of this. For all we know, Matthews may have approached Dubas about Holl. That game where Holl was yelled at was Holl's last game.

Very True- It is quite obvious Dubas panders to Mathews - I would say there is substance to your theory .

 

[sparxx87]

What I do find odd about this situation is ..

Every team needs depth due to injuries and illness throughout the course of a season, and Dmen are valuable resources particularly RHD shooting ones, so why are the Leafs so fast on the trading trigger to dump one in trade?

Most teams wouldn't consider their #7 dman expendable, so there must be more here behind this story.

I get the having a $2 mil Dmen as a healthy scratch is poor cap management, but ....... One injury and Holl would be tossed back into the Leafs line-up as a regular and if dealt unless its for another Dman then its a Marlie Dman getting the call and regular spot instead.

It comes back to the contract extension. If handled correctly at the negotiating table, Holl goes from $2M liability in the press box to $950K safety net.

This was a journeyman who'd spent his balance in the minor leagues, was a 7th d for two seasons then got his first extended stretch by Nov-Dec at 27 years old. He was a blocked shot or awkward fall from being on the shelf and possibly never getting back in the league unless he finds another coach and organization that believe in him.. At that point, Dubas and Keefe were the only guys who believed in him. A 2 or 3 year one-way extension @ $850-950K would have been more guaranteed money than he could have dreamed of only two months prior. It gives the organization the opportunity to see Justin Holl provide good value as a 5-7 D and great value if he plays anywhere above.... and because the cap is still near minimum, they have a safety net with two first round pick defenseman coming behind, both of which they expect to play in the NHL. If either of them outperform Justin Holl, he becomes a quality number 7 that most playoff teams would love to have. (at this point you also have leverage in potential trades because you don't want or need to trade Justin Holl, someone has to offer something better... now they have no leverage and are likely looking for the best cast-off they can get for him)

It's bad enough watching Dubas' poor hockey decisions but this one was just terrible business. Dubas is a nice guy in negotiations and we all know how that usually works out.

 

[SprDaVE]

Well to some of us - it was only a matter of time before Holl showed the caliber of D he was. He had good stretches but a lot of bad stretches (too many).

We didn't even get early season Holl this year (years prior he started the first 15-20 games looking pretty good), he came straight out of the gate in midseason form looking like complete garbage.

Exactly. While the power in hindsight and crystal ball is great, I don't think they could have foreseen these events happening to this degree. Is our current situation so awful that it was the biggest mistake ever? No. People are making it out like this was the most egregious roster decision ever. They kept someone that had a lot of good moments and paired very well with Muzzin. He's big and played a lot of tough defensive minutes well.

They liked Holl a lot, they probably still do, but he has struggled this year for sure and lost his spot to a very good young player. So now they are doing what seems like their due diligence.

It's great that you and other people saw this happening but I don't think it's very hard to take a step back and put yourself in their or someone elses shoes to understand. It isn't that complicated.