Kyle Dubas vs JFJ

[Namikaze Minato]

This remains one of the dumbest fanbases in all of sports. Most of you are so incredibly embarrassing with your lack of knowledge and your knee jerk, short sighted, Moronic reactions to problems.

 

[ottomaddox]

JFJ made possibly the single worst trade in Leafs history. Convo over.

Which one?

 

[nuck]

Which one?

I guess he means Rask but at the time it was done, Tuuka was a Jack Campbell or Riku Helenius or Chet Pickard and no where near a star they obviously they should have kept. The main input they had to move Rask v Pogge was likely coming from their pro and Euro scouts. A GM doesn't spend near enough time looking at his goalie prospects to know when one is a budding star. Somebody else talked him into that.

I have a lot less issue with him moving Rask, who was still a mystery bag at that point, than for doing it to get Raycroft who had such a brutal season there should have been alarm bells going off all over the place. They could have added the aging, but still solid Hasek for a bag of pucks that year and let their goalies percolate a bit. The decision to go for Raycroft was driven by his staff's bad advice and they should fry for that. but the decision to do it when he did was on JFJ who was desperate to replace an aging Belfour.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I agree on the ray Croft. But the marner contract worse then the rest. Those other moves didn’t wreck a once in a life time core

Overpaying a first team all-star player like marner by like 1-2m is worse than handing an echl level d man 4x4? Give your head a shake

 

[fahad203]

I guess he means Rask but at the time it was done, Tuuka was a Jack Campbell or Riku Helenius or Chet Pickard and no where near a star they obviously they should have kept. The main input they had to move Rask v Pogge was likely coming from their pro and Euro scouts. A GM doesn't spend near enough time looking at his goalie prospects to know when one is a budding star. Somebody else talked him into that.

I have a lot less issue with him moving Rask, who was still a mystery bag at that point, than for doing it to get Raycroft who had such a brutal season there should have been alarm bells going off all over the place. They could have added the aging, but still solid Hasek for a bag of pucks that year and let their goalies percolate a bit. The decision to go for Raycroft was driven by his staff's bad advice and they should fry for that. but the decision to do it when he did was on JFJ who was desperate to replace an aging Belfour.

JFJ should be credited for drafting Rask. He knew he was trading a blue chip prospect. But a prospect didn't come into his own for another 4 years after he was drafted. Boston had a guy name Tim Thomas

I think people forget what Pogge was doing. He was ripping AHL and WJC. He had size, stature, composure you name it. Boston actually called for Pogge. Even they thought he was a sure thing and next franchise goalie. In WJC he had an average of 1.0 . I don't know what the record is but that's insane with 3 shutouts

That was a trade I don't feel bad about. Sure he turned out to be a star, but we also thought we had a star in the making ourselves. So no that's not the worse trade the Leafs ever made, trust me, they made many.

 

[Azail]

LOL, the amount of jerking going back and forth in this thread by the Dubas haters is comical.

Geeze folks, get a room.

 

[keonsbitterness]

JFJ should be credited for drafting Rask. He knew he was trading a blue chip prospect. But a prospect didn't come into his own for another 4 years after he was drafted. Boston had a guy name Tim Thomas

I think people forget what Pogge was doing. He was ripping AHL and WJC. He had size, stature, composure you name it. Boston actually called for Pogge. Even they thought he was a sure thing and next franchise goalie. In WJC he had an average of 1.0 . I don't know what the record is but that's insane with 3 shutouts

That was a trade I don't feel bad about. Sure he turned out to be a star, but we also thought we had a star in the making ourselves. So no that's not the worse trade the Leafs ever made, trust me, they made many.

I saw Pogge play a couple of times in the AHL. Maybe I just happened to be at the wrong games, but he was terrible.

 

[mclaren55]

I’m guessing 30% didn’t actually live through the JFJ years if this comparison is being made...

 

[Nylanderthal]

LOL, the amount of jerking going back and forth in this thread by the Dubas haters is comical.

Geeze folks, get a room.

There’s a group of about 8-10 absolutely insufferable people here who bellyache nonstop and contort every move to fit a narrative they just refuse to let go

 

[nuck]

I saw Pogge play a couple of times in the AHL. Maybe I just happened to be at the wrong games, but he was terrible.

A Major Junior beast but just didn't have the next gear.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Context is important.

Pogge had the stronger pedigree. Pogge played Rask in 2006 Jr's and beat him handily. Pogge was great the whole tournament. Rask righted the ship and had the performance of the tournament against Sweden.

At the time I remember telling people they should keep both goalies. Let them battle all the way to the NHL and share the net. Eventually one will emerge and you've got the position sorted for hopefully the next decade and a half. Worst case they both flame out and you start from scratch.

JFJ was in a position where he had to succeed now. He looked at Raycroft as a solution until Pogge was ready. I don't recall many people at the time saying Pogge would be a bust. I have always been curious if Boston asked for Rask or if Toronto said Pogge is off limits. The deal was a massive bust, but you can see the rationale from JFJs perspective given the pressures put on him.

Dubas made a similar, albeit much lower stakes decision. He had an elite backup in McBackup, who had a great relationship with Freddy. He instead went with Sparks as the number 2. While Sparks had success at the AHL level, most who watched him play noted his positioning was defective. Dubas ignored that and went with Sparks. That backfired and Dubas spent months burning assets looking for a suitable backup. In the meantime more pressure was on Freddy to stay in the net. As a result injuries piled up and were here years later and the position is still in scramble mode.

Maybe one day when Dubas has been fired by the Leafs and he's back at the Soo or part of an AHL team, he can call up JFJ, who will be continuing to have success climbing the ladder in an NHL organization and they can share war stories about being NHL GMs before they were ready for the storied Maple Leafs.

I’m generally with you when it comes to tempering the Dubas love fest.

But I have to disagree with a lot of this. For one, Rask was the better goalie that tournament having been named best goalie. Pogge benefitted from a great team. You could tell Rask was way better than that Trevor Kidd wannabe. It was a disastrous trade the second it was made, and the only thing Pogge had going for him was being Canadian.

Secondly, again, I’m with you on Dubas erring along the way. But the Rask/McBackup situations are not comparable one bit. Not even close to a lower stakes decision. One involved a stud goalie prospect the Leafs hadn’t had since Potvin who has turned into a Hall of Famer. The other is an old journeyman playing 15 games who Dubas erroneously chose to move so he could keep a flake in Sparks (don’t get me wrong, I thought it was a stupid decision and choice). And which took a lot of time to right until he finally got Campbell.

 

[notDatsyuk]

This is hilarious. On one hand, Dubas overpaid a star player by $2 million. On the other hand, JFJ literally got confused as to who he was signing and offered a fringe NHLer a $3.5 million per year contract (in an era where the cap was much lower).

Yes. Totally the same.

Sure, Nylander is overpaid by only 2M, but what about Marner and Tavares? There's another 10M just between those two.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I would say Dubas is playing chess and JFJ played checkers.

Lamorello plays chess, Dubas plays checkers, JFJ played tiddlywinks.

 

[notDatsyuk]

JFJ made possibly the single worst trade in Leafs history. Convo over.

Two other solid contenders are the Courtnall trade and the Kessel trade.

But Dubas has the worst UFA signing.

I still give JFK the edge.

 

[djdev]

 

[ACC1224]

I guess he means Rask but at the time it was done, Tuuka was a Jack Campbell or Riku Helenius or Chet Pickard and no where near a star they obviously they should have kept. The main input they had to move Rask v Pogge was likely coming from their pro and Euro scouts. A GM doesn't spend near enough time looking at his goalie prospects to know when one is a budding star. Somebody else talked him into that.

I have a lot less issue with him moving Rask, who was still a mystery bag at that point, than for doing it to get Raycroft who had such a brutal season there should have been alarm bells going off all over the place. They could have added the aging, but still solid Hasek for a bag of pucks that year and let their goalies percolate a bit. The decision to go for Raycroft was driven by his staff's bad advice and they should fry for that. but the decision to do it when he did was on JFJ who was desperate to replace an aging Belfour.

I believe the Bruins asked for Rask. It wasn’t the Leafs who decided which one to keep.

 

[Blowfish]

Dubas wins worse GM...it's not even close. Other than Rask (trade was okay with Pogge the golden child) nothing below was as dumb as signing 3 players at $11 million plus.

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	San Jose Sharks acquire
Mark Bell Vesa Toskala [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 22, 2007	2007 2nd round pick (#44-Aaron Palushaj) 2009 4th round pick (#98-Craig Smith) conditional 1st round pick (2007 #13-Lars Eller) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Arizona Coyotes acquire
Yanic Perreault 2008 5th round pick (#129-Joel Champagne) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	February 27, 2007	Brendan Bell 2008 2nd round pick (#38-Roman Josi) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Arizona Coyotes acquire
Tyson Nash 2007 4th round pick (#99-Matt Frattin) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	November 27, 2006	Mikael Tellqvist [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Arizona Coyotes acquire
2006 6th round pick (#161-Viktor Stalberg) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 24, 2006	2006 7th round pick (#188-Chris Frank) 2006 7th round pick (#196-Benn Ferriero) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Boston Bruins acquire
Andrew Raycroft [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 24, 2006	rights to Tuukka Rask [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Chicago Blackhawks acquire
2006 4th round pick (#111-Korbinian Holzer) 2006 4th round pick (#99-James Reimer) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 24, 2006	2006 3rd round pick (#76-Tony Lagerstrom) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Boston Bruins acquire
2006 7th round pick (#188-Chris Frank) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 15, 2006	rights to Petr Tenkrat [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

New Jersey Devils acquire	Date	Toronto Maple Leafs acquire
Ken Klee [TBODY] [/TBODY]	March 8, 2006	Aleksander Suglobov [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Columbus Blue Jackets acquire
Luke Richardson [TBODY] [/TBODY]	March 8, 2006	2006 5th round pick or 2007 4th round pick (2006 #136-Nick Sucharski) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Dallas Stars acquire
2006 conditional 6th round pick (#180-Leo Komarov) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	November 6, 2005	Nathan Perrott [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	St. Louis Blues acquire
Johnny Pohl [TBODY] [/TBODY]	August 24, 2005	future considerations [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Carolina Hurricanes acquire
Jeff O`Neill [TBODY] [/TBODY]	July 30, 2005	2006 conditional 4th round pick (#106-Reto Berra) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Carolina Hurricanes acquire
Ron Francis [TBODY] [/TBODY]	March 9, 2004	2005 4th round pick (#101-Jared Boll) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	New York Rangers acquire
Brian Leetch conditional draft pick (2004 #113-Roman Kukumberg) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	March 3, 2004	Jarkko Immonen Maxim Kondratiev 2004 1st round pick (#24-Kris Chucko) 2005 2nd round pick (#40-Michael Sauer) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Pittsburgh Penguins acquire
Drake Berehowsky [TBODY] [/TBODY]	February 11, 2004	Richard Jackman [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Minnesota Wild acquire
2003 3rd round pick (#91-Martin Sagat) 2003 4th round pick (#125-Konstantin Volkov) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 21, 2003	2003 3rd round pick (#78-Danny Irmen) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[17 Clark]

I guess he means Rask but at the time it was done, Tuuka was a Jack Campbell or Riku Helenius or Chet Pickard and no where near a star they obviously they should have kept. The main input they had to move Rask v Pogge was likely coming from their pro and Euro scouts. A GM doesn't spend near enough time looking at his goalie prospects to know when one is a budding star. Somebody else talked him into that.

I have a lot less issue with him moving Rask, who was still a mystery bag at that point, than for doing it to get Raycroft who had such a brutal season there should have been alarm bells going off all over the place. They could have added the aging, but still solid Hasek for a bag of pucks that year and let their goalies percolate a bit. The decision to go for Raycroft was driven by his staff's bad advice and they should fry for that. but the decision to do it when he did was on JFJ who was desperate to replace an aging Belfour.

Dubas wins worse GM...it's not even close. Other than Rask (trade was okay with Pogge the golden child) nothing below was as dumb as signing 3 players at $11 million plus.

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	San Jose Sharks acquire
Mark Bell Vesa Toskala [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 22, 2007	2007 2nd round pick (#44-Aaron Palushaj) 2009 4th round pick (#98-Craig Smith) conditional 1st round pick (2007 #13-Lars Eller) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Arizona Coyotes acquire
Yanic Perreault 2008 5th round pick (#129-Joel Champagne) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	February 27, 2007	Brendan Bell 2008 2nd round pick (#38-Roman Josi) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Arizona Coyotes acquire
Tyson Nash 2007 4th round pick (#99-Matt Frattin) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	November 27, 2006	Mikael Tellqvist [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Arizona Coyotes acquire
2006 6th round pick (#161-Viktor Stalberg) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 24, 2006	2006 7th round pick (#188-Chris Frank) 2006 7th round pick (#196-Benn Ferriero) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Boston Bruins acquire
Andrew Raycroft [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 24, 2006	rights to Tuukka Rask [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Chicago Blackhawks acquire
2006 4th round pick (#111-Korbinian Holzer) 2006 4th round pick (#99-James Reimer) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 24, 2006	2006 3rd round pick (#76-Tony Lagerstrom) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Boston Bruins acquire
2006 7th round pick (#188-Chris Frank) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 15, 2006	rights to Petr Tenkrat [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

New Jersey Devils acquire	Date	Toronto Maple Leafs acquire
Ken Klee [TBODY] [/TBODY]	March 8, 2006	Aleksander Suglobov [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Columbus Blue Jackets acquire
Luke Richardson [TBODY] [/TBODY]	March 8, 2006	2006 5th round pick or 2007 4th round pick (2006 #136-Nick Sucharski) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Dallas Stars acquire
2006 conditional 6th round pick (#180-Leo Komarov) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	November 6, 2005	Nathan Perrott [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	St. Louis Blues acquire
Johnny Pohl [TBODY] [/TBODY]	August 24, 2005	future considerations [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Carolina Hurricanes acquire
Jeff O`Neill [TBODY] [/TBODY]	July 30, 2005	2006 conditional 4th round pick (#106-Reto Berra) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Carolina Hurricanes acquire
Ron Francis [TBODY] [/TBODY]	March 9, 2004	2005 4th round pick (#101-Jared Boll) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	New York Rangers acquire
Brian Leetch conditional draft pick (2004 #113-Roman Kukumberg) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	March 3, 2004	Jarkko Immonen Maxim Kondratiev 2004 1st round pick (#24-Kris Chucko) 2005 2nd round pick (#40-Michael Sauer) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Pittsburgh Penguins acquire
Drake Berehowsky [TBODY] [/TBODY]	February 11, 2004	Richard Jackman [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Minnesota Wild acquire
2003 3rd round pick (#91-Martin Sagat) 2003 4th round pick (#125-Konstantin Volkov) [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 21, 2003	2003 3rd round pick (#78-Danny Irmen) [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I know the Rask trade turned out to be bad Andrew Raycroft had 37 wins and played 72 games so it wasn’t all that bad Red light Raycroft I remember him well

 

[ottomaddox]

No one is even talking about the Muskoka 5.

Perhaps we are going through a Muskoka 4 (The New and Improved Next Generation) era...

 

[fahad203]

No one is even talking about the Muskoka 5.

Perhaps we are going through a Muskoka 4 (The New and Improved Next Generation) era...

That's how you go from hero to a villan. I loved Tucker and Mats and I always will. But that handcuffed the entire team for years
Mats Sundin/Kaberle had a trade in place for Jeff Carter
Kubina to San Jose was 1st, 2nd,3rd and a prospect. Ron Wilson said it first on his interview

We could have rebuilt years ago with JFJ who was very good at drafting

 

[Nylanderthal]

Sure, Nylander is overpaid by only 2M, but what about Marner and Tavares? There's another 10M just between those two.

So… Nylander should be under 5m and Tavares and marner should both be around 6m? Got it, ignore list for you.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Funny how those saying Dubas is worse based on him re-signing the rfas are also ignoring how jfj absolutely set the team back a decade with all his NMC contracts to old over the hill bums who accomplished nothing in their LONG careers.

 

[bossram]

Sure, Nylander is overpaid by only 2M, but what about Marner and Tavares? There's another 10M just between those two.

I was talking about Marner being overpaid by ~$2 million. He was an RFA and shouldn't have gone beyond Rantanen's AAV.

If anything, Nylander is underpaid. What a terrible take. He's a playdriving 1st line winger. At the time of the signing, ~$7 million was basically in line with his RFA comparables.

Tavares is market value. He was a UFA 1c. You're going to be paying $11+ million. Tavares had higher offers on the table. No issue with that contract either.

There's a significant difference between RFA and UFA contracts. You haven't grasped this. And you're still going to hold Dubas to a higher standard for overpaying high-end players vs. JFJ literally signing the wrong player because he was confused and committing to a ton of plugs. Lmao.

 

[notDatsyuk]

So… Nylander should be under 5m and Tavares and marner should both be around 6m? Got it, ignore list for you.

Just a bit of a joke, as someone had said a 'star' was overpaid by 2M.

Actually Nylander was the best of the three in the playoffs (and yes, I know JT only played a bit). He's maybe overpaid by 1M.

Marner and Tavares? Probably only four each.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I was talking about Marner being overpaid by ~$2 million. He was an RFA and shouldn't have gone beyond Rantanen's AAV.

If anything, Nylander is underpaid. What a terrible take. He's a playdriving 1st line winger. At the time of the signing, ~$7 million was basically in line with his RFA comparables.

Tavares is market value. He was a UFA 1c. You're going to be paying $11+ million. Tavares had higher offers on the table. No issue with that contract either.

There's a significant difference between RFA and UFA contracts. You haven't grasped this. And you're still going to hold Dubas to a higher standard for overpaying high-end players vs. JFJ literally signing the wrong player because he was confused and committing to a ton of plugs. Lmao.

I wasn't sure whether you meant Marner or Tavares, but I knew it was one of them. Hence my joke about Nylander.

Actually, I like Nylander, and have no problem with his contract; although I didn't like the process, and think it's maybe 1M high.

Marner is overpaid, probably by 4M.

As far as I'm concerned, we are overpaying Tavares by 11M, as we should never have signed him. He was worth about 8M for the first couple of years, but he'll soon be a third line winger (if we can afford anyone to replace him at 2C), worth about 4M.

By the way I well aware of the differences between RFA and UFA. And despite some extenuating circumstances, I still think JFJ was worse, but Dubas isn't finished yet, so I'll reserve final judgement.