Entirely self inflicted with his signings of JT, AM, WN, & MM.
Kyle Dubas vs JFJ
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Entirely self inflicted with his signings of JT, AM, WN, & MM.
yubbers
Grown Menzez
- May 1, 2013
- 37,405
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Hainsey played much better than Barrie did. Let me say it I've more time so you get it.....Reily......... Had a career year partnered with Hainsey.
That fact doesn't change no matter how much you complain. My position is based on proven results. Yours rests on nothing. Barrie was terrible here. Muh Babcock though right? Never Kyles fault.
You can say that again!
Dubas has proven to be a failure and yet some leaf fans still want this guy in charge of the team. It's beyond comprehension as there is no logic being used. Somehow they've convinced themselves they must chear on kid Kyle no matter what.
Mats13
Registered User
- Apr 22, 2015
- 6,429
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2M overpayment vs trading a franchise goalie at the age of 20 for Raycroft
You’re joking right?
The damage done by Dubas' is subtle. I thought a few years ago, no one can blow this rebuild. JFJ didn't inherit the talent Dubum did.
An issue with this thread is that JFJ's legacy (or lack thereof) is finished. We won't fully see the final results here for a long time. I look at it like this:
JFJ took over a team built by respected men in hockey. Pat Quin, Ken Dryden and a few others were great minds for the game. I'm not saying the early 00s Leafs were a juggernaught, but they won playoff series in '99 (2), '00, '01, '02 (2), '04. They lost to teams that either won it all or went to the finals multiple times. They were a break away from easily making a cup final tbh. JFJ could have prolonged this era of prosperity (for us) or torn it down to build something new. What he really needed to do was take the team and put them over the top, like the Avs and Wings were at the time. The issue is that most of the moves JRJ made, sucked. They mostly consisted of trading whatever few picks/prospects we had for not only aging vets, but guys literally entering retirement. Looking back at the 2003/2004 timeline and the Leafs could have honestly won the cup if we had a GM make a legit move. The guys we got barely did anything, besides Nieuendyk lol. I just can't imagine why more wasn't done. The team was already in all-in mode and you would think Toronto would have added more than guys who were great decades prior. In the end, I think JFJ sucked and lead to a depression or recession of Leafs hockey. It can't be understated how bad he was. We didn't get to a cup and we had no future as of 2005/2006. He didn't make good enough moves to win and he tore down the prospects/draft pool.
Dubas took over a dream scenario and is slowly killing it. The only moves he can really make are roster depth moves for league minimum. He reminds me of the guy that tags along for back to school shopping, and spends 95% of his money on the first store he goes into. As you and your friends visit more stores, you find deals and end up having a great day. Dubas is forced to nickel and dime his way for the rest of the day, while carrying stuff the entire time, knowing he rushed things. Dubas represents to me the new NHL man. If Pat Quinn represented one era, Dubas does for other reasons.
JFJ took over a team built by respected men in hockey. Pat Quin, Ken Dryden and a few others were great minds for the game. I'm not saying the early 00s Leafs were a juggernaught, but they won playoff series in '99 (2), '00, '01, '02 (2), '04. They lost to teams that either won it all or went to the finals multiple times. They were a break away from easily making a cup final tbh. JFJ could have prolonged this era of prosperity (for us) or torn it down to build something new. What he really needed to do was take the team and put them over the top, like the Avs and Wings were at the time. The issue is that most of the moves JRJ made, sucked. They mostly consisted of trading whatever few picks/prospects we had for not only aging vets, but guys literally entering retirement. Looking back at the 2003/2004 timeline and the Leafs could have honestly won the cup if we had a GM make a legit move. The guys we got barely did anything, besides Nieuendyk lol. I just can't imagine why more wasn't done. The team was already in all-in mode and you would think Toronto would have added more than guys who were great decades prior. In the end, I think JFJ sucked and lead to a depression or recession of Leafs hockey. It can't be understated how bad he was. We didn't get to a cup and we had no future as of 2005/2006. He didn't make good enough moves to win and he tore down the prospects/draft pool.
Dubas took over a dream scenario and is slowly killing it. The only moves he can really make are roster depth moves for league minimum. He reminds me of the guy that tags along for back to school shopping, and spends 95% of his money on the first store he goes into. As you and your friends visit more stores, you find deals and end up having a great day. Dubas is forced to nickel and dime his way for the rest of the day, while carrying stuff the entire time, knowing he rushed things. Dubas represents to me the new NHL man. If Pat Quinn represented one era, Dubas does for other reasons.
Man Bear Pig
Registered User
JFJ was, to put it simply, a puppet. The geniuses at the board and Peddie had their fingerprints all over those teams. They didnt care about winning, they just wanted to get some of that sweet playoff revenue and were willing to mortgage anything and everything to get it. JFJ was/is known to be a good scout. Who knows how that rebuild would have gone, but it couldnt have gone much worse than the Burke era.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
- 35,591
- 16,777
He had a minor upper body injury, but was good to go right away after quarantine. He played 2 weeks before missing another couple of games with another upper body injury.
Then he missed Games 3-5 with an unrelated lower body injury before returning for Games 6 and 7.
He was healthy. He is just not that good of a player anymore. He delivered what he delivered for the past 5 years in Columbus. It just was never worth a 1st round pick.
The CyNick
Freedom of Speech!
- Sep 17, 2009
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Context is important.
Pogge had the stronger pedigree. Pogge played Rask in 2006 Jr's and beat him handily. Pogge was great the whole tournament. Rask righted the ship and had the performance of the tournament against Sweden.
At the time I remember telling people they should keep both goalies. Let them battle all the way to the NHL and share the net. Eventually one will emerge and you've got the position sorted for hopefully the next decade and a half. Worst case they both flame out and you start from scratch.
JFJ was in a position where he had to succeed now. He looked at Raycroft as a solution until Pogge was ready. I don't recall many people at the time saying Pogge would be a bust. I have always been curious if Boston asked for Rask or if Toronto said Pogge is off limits. The deal was a massive bust, but you can see the rationale from JFJs perspective given the pressures put on him.
Dubas made a similar, albeit much lower stakes decision. He had an elite backup in McBackup, who had a great relationship with Freddy. He instead went with Sparks as the number 2. While Sparks had success at the AHL level, most who watched him play noted his positioning was defective. Dubas ignored that and went with Sparks. That backfired and Dubas spent months burning assets looking for a suitable backup. In the meantime more pressure was on Freddy to stay in the net. As a result injuries piled up and were here years later and the position is still in scramble mode.
Maybe one day when Dubas has been fired by the Leafs and he's back at the Soo or part of an AHL team, he can call up JFJ, who will be continuing to have success climbing the ladder in an NHL organization and they can share war stories about being NHL GMs before they were ready for the storied Maple Leafs.
WTFMAN99
Registered User
- Jun 17, 2009
- 34,667
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Drafting: JFJ over Dubas but early days on that
Trading: Dubas...Dubas had one gaffe with Kadri but overall good trades, JFJ got fleeced multiple times
Contract negotiations: Slight edge to JFJ because of how bent over Dubas got bent over by Matthews and Marner
What other areas should we look at?
JFJ was hated by his players, Dubas is respected but both seem to have a country club atmosphere.
Trading: Dubas...Dubas had one gaffe with Kadri but overall good trades, JFJ got fleeced multiple times
Contract negotiations: Slight edge to JFJ because of how bent over Dubas got bent over by Matthews and Marner
What other areas should we look at?
JFJ was hated by his players, Dubas is respected but both seem to have a country club atmosphere.
The Iceman
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2007
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The CyNick
Freedom of Speech!
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Dubas has the media convinced he's "smart". So maybe from a persuasion perspective, he's elite. I don't recall JFJ having that type of skill in persuasion.
nuck
Registered User
- Aug 18, 2005
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I am not sure the two can be compared. It was always suggested that JFJ was never given the option to rebuild the team and was forced to make band-aid moves to squeak into the playoffs. He was never really given the reins or the support to be an actual GM and do what he felt was best for the team. Dubas has always had the power but this year will have as much or more to do with his legacy than the previous ones. His worst gaffs were the big 4 contracts and that was years ago. TBH I am not sure he even signs JT if he knows the rough ride he will get from the big 3 for their deals. I for one am fine if we quit bringing up those deals period as they are ancient history that he won't repeat, but I guess if others still want to bring up Lou for the Seth Jarvis pick then fair is fair.
JFJ was never an actual GM and an incomplete mark for Dubas. Since we don't know if he will tank and get fired or take them to the Cup finals I wouldn't even give a "based on his body of work so far" ranking yet.
JFJ was never an actual GM and an incomplete mark for Dubas. Since we don't know if he will tank and get fired or take them to the Cup finals I wouldn't even give a "based on his body of work so far" ranking yet.
notDatsyuk
Registered User
- Jul 20, 2018
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Why must you bring up such painful memories?
JFJ was just like his father: he would do anything to prevent the Leafs from winning.
JFJ was just like his father: he would do anything to prevent the Leafs from winning.
ottomaddox
Registered User
I loved Hainsey. He was solid on TOR.
The CyNick
Freedom of Speech!
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supermann_98
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- May 8, 2002
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JFJ was worse and anyone who says otherwise was either too young to remember JFJ and his decisions or is blinded by the Dubas' hate train going full steam these days.
Saying that tho JFJ did not have full autonomy and was mandated by ownership to make the playoffs at all costs ... whereas Dubas inherited a stacked roster of young talent and severely misread the market and handed out overwhelmingly bad contracts.
If JFJ had Shanny supporting him and a full scorched earth rebuild available to him we may be having a different conversation
Saying that tho JFJ did not have full autonomy and was mandated by ownership to make the playoffs at all costs ... whereas Dubas inherited a stacked roster of young talent and severely misread the market and handed out overwhelmingly bad contracts.
If JFJ had Shanny supporting him and a full scorched earth rebuild available to him we may be having a different conversation
Wafflewhipper
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- Jan 18, 2014
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With Kerfoot available Dubas has technically nothing to show for trading Kadri. He has a soft bunch of choker,losers left. No kadri of course because he had character and balls.
K.D aka Kraft Dinner has blown it and so has Shinnyhan. They need to be fired immediately. Have done nothing but turned the team in to a embarrassment. 5 first round losses in a row with the same core that they plan on going with again.
Just complete incompetence. Anyways if Kerfoot get taken Dubas has Zero left for Kadri. Pretty disgusting
K.D aka Kraft Dinner has blown it and so has Shinnyhan. They need to be fired immediately. Have done nothing but turned the team in to a embarrassment. 5 first round losses in a row with the same core that they plan on going with again.
Just complete incompetence. Anyways if Kerfoot get taken Dubas has Zero left for Kadri. Pretty disgusting
Wafflewhipper
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- Jan 18, 2014
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ottomaddox
Registered User
It is quite shocking how there are many similarities.
It's really hard to believe.
I do believe that JFJ was GM when TOR won a playoff series. He's got Dubas on that one.
The CyNick
Freedom of Speech!
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I called the JFJ - Dubas connection when Dubas was handed the GM job. JFJ was seen as a rising star but was given the job too early in his career. Dubas has done less with more than JFJ.
JFJ had the worst trade of the two but you can see the logic at the time.
Dubas is worse in my mind because his contract work may have literally cost this franchise one or multiple Cups. I don't think the team JFJ inherited was on track to win the Cup.
TDotMassive
Registered User
usernamezrhardtodo
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- Mar 26, 2014
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I don't believe that Rask would have turned into the Rask we all know had he stayed. We would have ruined him in some way...probably playing him too soon and killing his confidence. People forget that Tim Thomas won them the cup...Rask didn't and never has besides being a back-up on a stanley cup team.
It's easy to say the JFJ made a mistake with Rask...but the way the team ended up makes me believe he would have been driven out of town rather than be the Rask that was a good goalie for the Bruins.
