Kyle Dubas vs JFJ

[Amadeus]

Delivers what exactly?
Not a winning Team.
We can all see that.

By delivers, I mean his moves aren't of the boneheaded mentality at all. I feel his trades have all been logical who I've supported. Some have worked well, some haven't.

He's not a passive GM at all. He's fairly active which is why I'm saying he delivers.

 

[DarkKnight]

I keep hearing this but have not seen a source confirming this.

Dreger reported it and someone posted a link from Columbus day prior that he was still injured. I had always assumed we did our dd and he was good to go, but it was pretty obvious when he got here something was nagging him and the earlier talk was spot on.

 

[Matty Sundin]

JFJ was a puppet so hard to compare really

 

[centipede2233]

JFJ was a puppet so hard to compare really

I agree we’re comparing apples to oranges. Dubas has been given free reign, JFJ a lot of his moves were influenced by ownership.
With that said, I’ll take the guy whose been given free reign and still has screwed up as the more incompetent of the 2, so I chose dubie

 

[PromisedLand]

Difference b/w dubas and jfj

JFJ was not allowed a rebuild. He wanted to rebuild but MLSE was a gong show. Pension Plan owned the team and was forcing the then GM (JFJ) to make playoffs at any cost for playoff revenues without any regard to long term. hell they hired Burke because pension plan wanted to "retool" and get moving and we know how that worked out. JFJ made some terrible moves (Rask) but it was forced upon him by the MLSE (pension plan board). Unlike the freedom dubas has JFJ did not have that

Dubas did not face any such pressure from Bell/Rogers (billion dollar companies). Had come into the best situation that any GM would want. team on the rise with really good players and plenty of cap space and assets

In short time Dubas has f***ed over the cap; traded away all the assets and has nothing to show.


If one does situational/contextual analysis one can easily see why Dubas is WORST than JFJ

 

[Stinger8]

Its possible that Dubas' strength is personnel evaluation etc, perhaps here he could deliver value to a team. He clearly does not understand contract negotiating (he has lost every big negotiation he has conducted) and team chemistry/culture value. He has had to date every resource available to a GM, money, staff, perks, patience, support and has done a very underwhelming job over all. He saw over the last 2 years the obvious flaws and has not fixed the problem. I seriously doubt he will be able to adress that this summer and expect the team to be middle of the pack next year MAYBE fighting for a playoff spot.
Someone needs to get Paul and Mitchy into a closed door meeting lay out the short comings and expectations for an $11MM a year stipend. Failure to deliver and you are on your way to Columbus or Seattle or Arizona (dont think Mitch cares anyway he is about the dough).

That said Dubas is better the JFJ, he was an abomination.

 

[PromisedLand]

It turned out that way but goalies are voodoo and it's hard to know how they will develop. For that reason I can cut JFJ a little slack.

Kid Kyle knew signing JT was going to upset the salary structure and put pressure on the cap. He knew that McDavid & Eichel signed for 8 but let AM get away with only 5 anyway. He knew the comparable players for Marner were no where near $11M but gave it to him anyway. He knew he had another year of Marleau but seemingly didn't factor that in to his other decisions, and it ended up costing a 1st (and KK & AJ a season later).

IMO making bad decisions when you know the consequences is inexcusable.

and now has what like 9 million to add 9 roster players? LOL

Dubas' incompetence impacts every season

 

[stickty111]

It's JFJ, and any one picking Dubas really needs to learn to evalute better and quit their biases. This thread is a great example of why some of our fans deserve all the misery that has happened to this organization, and no that is not hyperbole.

 

[pucksakes666]

JFJ leafs had an aging core, prior to lockout they kept trading away 1st round picks . He had an empty cupboard to deal with and aging vets plus the ownership board micromanaging. Dubas tho however seems to be on the way with bad recent moves.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

JFJ is worse, because of his Rask for Raycroft deal. That's probably the worst trade in the history of the franchise. And almost everybody agreed at the time it was horrible.

They are both bad at cap-management, they both trade 1st round picks for either overrated players or players that didn't lead to any winning or bad situations.

I'm more forgiving to JFJ, because he had to handle the introduction of the cap and Richard "basketball is my passion" Peddie, but Rask for Raycroft kills him every time.

Nonis is easily the worst GM though in the last 25 years and its not even a debate

Agreed. Nonis was just bad move after bad move.

 

[danny90]

I agree 99 percent of dubas move blow jfj out of the water


But jfj never did anything to as close as dumb as the marner contract

Rask for raycroft is way worse IMO, could have solved our goaltending issues for years.

 

[danny90]

Agreed. Nonis was just bad move after bad move.

Burke was pretty bad also I love Kessel but seguin and Hamilton >

 

[Smif]

I honestly can't tell the difference between out of the playoffs by one point, or badly outplay by the opponent and lose in round one. Both scenarios are equally embarrassing.

But like I said, JFJ's teams had one playoff series win, relatively speaking that was an accomplishment, so I think Dubas is worse.

JFJ had 5 years vs 3 years to do it, though. JFJ also inherited a team that had just made it to the semi-finals two years prior and won 44 games the year before. It was a team that was used to winning rounds.

 

[Apex Predator]

JFJ had 5 years vs 3 years to do it, though. JFJ also inherited a team that had just made it to the semi-finals two years prior and won 44 games the year before. It was a team that was used to winning rounds.

then the lockout happened and rules changed how the game was played. He knew the leafs needed to rebuild.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Burke was pretty bad also I love Kessel but seguin and Hamilton >

Burke had a mix of good and bad ( like most GMs). I didn't like the Kessel deal at the time because I knew we were just delaying the inevitable of being a mediocre team in need of a rebuild. The deal looks even worse in hindsight with who they ended up drafting. I mostly hated his drafts because he just kept aiming for size and snarl but most of these players weren't even making an impact in the AHL.

Nonis was just bad. I can't really think of anything good he did. He drafted Nylander but thats because Shanny stepped in and said we need to take skill. If he hadn't I think Nonis takes Ritchie.

 

[yubbers]

The dubas fan boys have been closing their eyes and plugging their ears anytime valid criticism of dubas is brought up so I'm not surprised you don't "see" anything.

How do you inherit a 105 point team and have nothing to show for it after 3 years?

He's lost most of his trades.

Overpaid all 3 rfas.

Sparks over mcbackup lol

Hiring his BFF to coach the leafs.

Dubas has been a complete failure. Anyone still chearing for him is not a real leaf fan. How can you support a gm who is actively hurting the franchise?

Agreed.

The one of numerous blunders nobody seems to speak about is letting Hainsey walk. Our home grown dman in Reilz had a career year playing with Ron. We had a pretty solid top pair with a stay at home defenseman that let Reily open it up a bit. Just like McBackup.... Nuking a sure thing to roll the dice on muh youth. Cody freaking Cici replaced him on the top pair so we could get Barrie? Haha.

Letting Hainsey walk was so stupid. His most underrated blunder imho

 

[Menzinger]

Agreed.

The one of numerous blunders nobody seems to speak about is letting Hainsey walk. Our home grown dman in Reilz had a career year playing with Ron. We had a pretty solid top pair with a stay at home defenseman that let Reily open it up a bit. Just like McBackup.... Nuking a sure thing to roll the dice on muh youth. Cody freaking Cici replaced him on the top pair so we could get Barrie? Haha.

Letting Hainsey walk was so stupid. His most underrated blunder imho

Hainsey was pretty bad during that season with Ottawa..there's a reason he retired right after it

 

[Stephen]

Agreed.

The one of numerous blunders nobody seems to speak about is letting Hainsey walk. Our home grown dman in Reilz had a career year playing with Ron. We had a pretty solid top pair with a stay at home defenseman that let Reily open it up a bit. Just like McBackup.... Nuking a sure thing to roll the dice on muh youth. Cody freaking Cici replaced him on the top pair so we could get Barrie? Haha.

Letting Hainsey walk was so stupid. His most underrated blunder imho

Don't think letting Hainsey go was a big deal since the wheels were falling off him already. But what hurt the 2019-20 Leafs is the fact that the organization didn't have very many of those defensively oriented 6'3" versatile defensemen ready to replace him. Seems like one of the reasons is the Leafs under value these types of players. Instead of making them a priority through draft, development or free agency, we seem to have hung onto Martin Marincin 'just in case', and luckily Justin Holl emerged. In 2021, the Leafs did well to get Bogosian, but we're back to square one on that one again this summer.

 

[Smif]

My gosh guys, we're complaining about Ron freaking Hainsey when our current top 4 consists of Rielly, Brodie and Muzzin?? Dermott, Holl, Sandin and Liljegren fill out the rest with UFA still ahead of us to make it more solid. This is painful, guys, seriously.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Agreed.

The one of numerous blunders nobody seems to speak about is letting Hainsey walk. Our home grown dman in Reilz had a career year playing with Ron. We had a pretty solid top pair with a stay at home defenseman that let Reily open it up a bit. Just like McBackup.... Nuking a sure thing to roll the dice on muh youth. Cody freaking Cici replaced him on the top pair so we could get Barrie? Haha.

Letting Hainsey walk was so stupid. His most underrated blunder imho

Brodie on the top pairing is miles better than Hainsey. That's probably why nobody else actually gives a shit

 

[Smif]

Insert* Dumb and Dumber totally redeem yourself gif.....

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Elite Prospects - Team Comparison in NHL[/URL]

Tampa won with 6 of their 13 forwards on their cup run being 5'11 and under.

On the Marlies, for every Petan added, he also added guys like Archibald, Gaudet, Rubins, Sabourin, Elyunik, Brazeau, Pooley, who are all 6'3 and bigger. So again not small. Seeing as I dont ever see you in the marlies/prospects or draft threads, I'm going to assume you don't know anything about our prospects, former prospects or other teams prospects. Our current prospect pool is well regarded despite not having 1st round picks.

Edit- half my post is missing?

 

[bossram]

Marner's overpayment keeps going up and up. I remember the good old days when he was overpaid by only 500k

You know people are wrong when they can't even come back with a decent argument lmao.

 

[bossram]

The scary thing about Dubas is we don't know what the long term fallout of his actions will be over the next few years. Keep in mind he's emptied out a lot of assets to balance the cap already before going 'all-in' this year. A lot of this hinges on how strong his recent drafts actually were, how fast those picks pay off and how competitive the Leafs can stay over the next few years before our key free agents are up.

To be fair, that wasn't self-inflicted. He had to clear the anchor contracts from Lou to get to a cap-compliant team.

I didn't like his TDL moves at all and said at the time. Foligno, Nash, and Hutton were WTFs. Way too much lost in draft pick capital.

Their window is the length of Matthews' contract and will need a Cup in that time for Dubas to vindicate himself.

 

[LeafGrief]

Kyle Dubas has drafted well, handed out some bad contracts, signed John Tavares, traded away two firsts to get rid of Marleau and add Foligno, and completely rebuilt our defense.

I comfortably voted JFJ. Dubas is not without his mistakes, and may ultimately be fired in shame, but I think his tenure has been more good than bad. He did to our defense in two years what nobody managed in the last twenty. I'm not going to overlook Muzzin and Brodie.