Confirmed with Link: Kyle Dubas Not Returning

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I didnt read much about Shanahan and NuHockey. I just know Babcock isnt that and neither was Lou or Hunter so it makes little sense.

Babcock was kind of NuHockey in the sense that he hated retaliation and said the PP would be the enforcer for the team. He wouldn't play Martin and he went on to play several more years on the Island.

 

[Superstar]

Bare minimum he gets the same deal MLSE offered, he comes out even in the short term.

I'm sure he could get $4 million...I don't think he's happier in that case...he was in a much better situation in Toronto.

 

[ToneDog]

There is absolutely NO situation in the entire NHL as cozy as the situation he was given when he got the Leafs job.

his failure is inevitable regardless of where he ends up.

Having to deal with the upcoming contracts to the 3 amigos was his challenge and he blew all 3 because he had no idea what effect signing JT would have on the negotiations. Shanny should get some of the blame for setting him up to fail. If he wasn't such a pompous ass who kept telling anybody who would listen that he bet everything on this core and they will win with this core, he might have been more tolerable. As it stands, good riddance. Let's now hire a GM that does not live in a fantasy world.

I'm sure he could get $4 million...I don't think he's happier in that case...he was in a much better situation Toronto.

He's got 87 and 71 who are proven playoff warriors. His challenge is to win before they fall off a cliff.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I really wish people would do some reading on Shanny. The reputation he had as a player is NOT what he is as an executive as far as vision for how the game should be played. Just watch that Russian 5 documentary where he is gushing over the skill they had. He really thought he was going to change the game by giving Nic Petan's of the world more room out there.

I think as much as I disliked what Dubas did with the contracts...I think he was being "guided" into a lot of the decisions on skill players than he would have done organically. He had some tough players at the Soo....I seriously doubt he just forgot that when he became GM.

I guess it makes sense that Shanny was so annoyed at Dubas when he informed him the Foligno deal went through (Amazon prime). I thought it was because Foligno was washed up and we paid too much. I think Shanny thought they didn't need that type of player. Who knows...but we will find out soon enough when the next GM puts out a team.

I’m not saying Dubas wanted to build the Bay Street Bullies and Shanny forced him to get Petan and co instead, but Dubas was hired because his views aligned with Shanny’s, and the next guy will be more of the same.

That view of the game might even work, we won’t know because we decided to hard pivot away from speed down the lineup in favor of becoming mediocre at everything instead of elite at a few things.

What it comes down to IMO is Shanny’s ego. The 2005 lockout could have been resolved in a more measured way, but then it wouldn’t be called The Shanahan Summit and he wouldn’t be able to take all the credit for the changes.

Because of the rushed overcorrection in eliminating clutch and grab, we saw penalties skyrocket and players got concussed even more due to the increased speed through the neutral zone. The increased penalties ironically caused teams like Boston and LA to dominate by taking advantage of game management and brought in a new dead puck era that yet again had to be over corrected for. The increased speed leading to more dangerous headshots resulted in Shanahan’s DOPS and the refs having an even bigger stranglehold on the game. Re-setting the RFA pay scale with skilled brand-friendly players is a continuation of what he pushed for as a player with his infamous offer sheet and as an exec with the RFA rights that came with his CBA negotiations in 2005.

I don’t think he came to Toronto to grind out a cup the traditional way, he came to Toronto to win a cup his way and use it as an example for teams going forward. As often happens with ego, he dramatically overestimated how well he understands the game or underestimated how much he needs to dance when Rogers and Bell tell him to.

It’s not enough to be the guy who finally brought a cup to Toronto, he needs to be the guy that changed the game forever while doing it. Failing that, he’s satisfied collecting his enormous pay check from Bell and Rogers as long as he has some relatable marketing assets like Marner to help sell TikTok stickers on helmets. Anything that could hurt Shanny’s legacy as the biggest brained innovator in hockey history is forbidden.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

I'm sure he could get $4 million...I don't think he's happier in that case...he was in a much better situation in Toronto.

Brian Burke has said it best, Leafs are a global brand up there with the Yankees, Cowboys, Lakers, Man U.

You think other franchises will have the type of practice facilities, medical and analytical staff Leafs do?? Doubt it

 

[TheDoldrums]

You think other franchises will have the type of practice facilities, medical and analytical staff Leafs do?? Doubt it

I mean Dubas is partly to thank for some of these advantages. He created the sports science department, he built out the analytics team, etc.

The franchise always had money but in the cap era it's really only since Shanny/Dubas that it actually felt like they were utilizing it.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I’m not saying Dubas wanted to build the Bay Street Bullies and Shanny forced him to get Petan and co instead, but Dubas was hired because his views aligned with Shanny’s, and the next guy will be more of the same.

That view of the game might even work, we won’t know because we decided to hard pivot away from speed down the lineup in favor of becoming mediocre at everything instead of elite at a few things.

What it comes down to IMO is Shanny’s ego. The 2005 lockout could have been resolved in a more measured way, but then it wouldn’t be called The Shanahan Summit and he wouldn’t be able to take all the credit for the changes.

Because of the rushed overcorrection in eliminating clutch and grab, we saw penalties skyrocket and players got concussed even more due to the increased speed through the neutral zone. The increased penalties ironically caused teams like Boston and LA to dominate by taking advantage of game management and brought in a new dead puck era that yet again had to be over corrected for. The increased speed leading to more dangerous headshots resulted in Shanahan’s DOPS and the refs having an even bigger stranglehold on the game. Re-setting the RFA pay scale with skilled brand-friendly players is a continuation of what he pushed for as a player with his infamous offer sheet and as an exec with the RFA rights that came with his CBA negotiations in 2005.

I don’t think he came to Toronto to grind out a cup the traditional way, he came to Toronto to win a cup his way and use it as an example for teams going forward. As often happens with ego, he dramatically overestimated how well he understands the game or underestimated how much he needs to dance when Rogers and Bell tell him to.

It’s not enough to be the guy who finally brought a cup to Toronto, he needs to be the guy that changed the game forever while doing it. Failing that, he’s satisfied collecting his enormous pay check from Bell and Rogers as long as he has some relatable marketing assets like Marner to help sell TikTok stickers on helmets. Anything that could hurt Shanny’s legacy as the biggest brained innovator in hockey history is forbidden.

Do you think Dubas was more married to the core than Shanny? I don't...I really think Shanny prevented Dubas from trading the plethora of skill we had on display. I think initially they had a very similar vision (thus the boot upstairs for Lou) and in time...Dubas probably saw that having the core wasn't going to work but couldn't wiggle his way out of the situation. I cannot for the life of me believe I am defending Dubas in any way here...I guess the proof will come out when Dubas has his own team to run and we see what kind of build he does.

 

[The Masters]

There is absolutely NO situation in the entire NHL as cozy as the situation he was given when he got the Leafs job.

his failure is inevitable regardless of where he ends up.

he can't even rebuild there either. no win situation

 

[weems]

I’m not saying Dubas wanted to build the Bay Street Bullies and Shanny forced him to get Petan and co instead, but Dubas was hired because his views aligned with Shanny’s, and the next guy will be more of the same.

That view of the game might even work, we won’t know because we decided to hard pivot away from speed down the lineup in favor of becoming mediocre at everything instead of elite at a few things.

What it comes down to IMO is Shanny’s ego. The 2005 lockout could have been resolved in a more measured way, but then it wouldn’t be called The Shanahan Summit and he wouldn’t be able to take all the credit for the changes.

Because of the rushed overcorrection in eliminating clutch and grab, we saw penalties skyrocket and players got concussed even more due to the increased speed through the neutral zone. The increased penalties ironically caused teams like Boston and LA to dominate by taking advantage of game management and brought in a new dead puck era that yet again had to be over corrected for. The increased speed leading to more dangerous headshots resulted in Shanahan’s DOPS and the refs having an even bigger stranglehold on the game. Re-setting the RFA pay scale with skilled brand-friendly players is a continuation of what he pushed for as a player with his infamous offer sheet and as an exec with the RFA rights that came with his CBA negotiations in 2005.

I don’t think he came to Toronto to grind out a cup the traditional way, he came to Toronto to win a cup his way and use it as an example for teams going forward. As often happens with ego, he dramatically overestimated how well he understands the game or underestimated how much he needs to dance when Rogers and Bell tell him to.

It’s not enough to be the guy who finally brought a cup to Toronto, he needs to be the guy that changed the game forever while doing it. Failing that, he’s satisfied collecting his enormous pay check from Bell and Rogers as long as he has some relatable marketing assets like Marner to help sell TikTok stickers on helmets. Anything that could hurt Shanny’s legacy as the biggest brained innovator in hockey history is forbidden.

Is Treliving more of the same though?

This quote was from a few years ago so maybe he's changed his view but it sounds different than what we just had.

"I think the style of play, people talk about big and whatever word you want to use, I think you need to have heavy teams now," he said. "I think you have to play a heavy game. That's not just a personal preference. Turn on the TV tonight and watch the games."

"There are steps along the way. We've got to take a lot of steps but in order to be there at the end, to build a championship, you do have to have a blueprint and you look at the games that are being played now. It's hard hockey. It's heavy hockey. It's a man's game. It's a big boy's game out there right now. In order to have success, I fully believe you have to have a team that can play in those games."

 

[Martin Skoula]

Do you think Dubas was more married to the core than Shanny? I don't...I really think Shanny prevented Dubas from trading the plethora of skill we had on display. I think initially they had a very similar vision (thus the boot upstairs for Lou) and in time...Dubas probably saw that having the core wasn't going to work but couldn't wiggle his way out of the situation. I cannot for the life of me believe I am defending Dubas in any way here...I guess the proof will come out when Dubas has his own team to run and we see what kind of build he does.

Of the two of them we only have hard evidence for Dubas saying everything is on the table and demonstrating a willingness to adjust after doing something that doesn’t work out (Ritchie, Mrazek, etc). Tavares is one that strikes me as someone above Dubas’ paygrade wanting to make a splash for marketing purposes. Just doesn’t make sense for speed and skill obsessed Dubas who was talking about finding moneyball inefficiencies to go out of his way to pay UFA prices for a guy that is neither fast nor particularly skilled.

Again I don’t think Dubas is a genius and going to fix Pittsburgh or anything, it was time to move on because the team got boring. I don’t think treating the symptoms is going to do anything about the root cause in Shanny/MLSE, there’s just going to be a new guy who’s fault it is that we’re so soft and uncompetitive while Shanny continues to make absurd money with 0 accountability for what he actually contributes to the organization.

Is Treliving more of the same though?

This quote was from a few years ago so maybe he's changed his view but it sounds different than what we just had.

"I think the style of play, people talk about big and whatever word you want to use, I think you need to have heavy teams now," he said. "I think you have to play a heavy game. That's not just a personal preference. Turn on the TV tonight and watch the games."

"There are steps along the way. We've got to take a lot of steps but in order to be there at the end, to build a championship, you do have to have a blueprint and you look at the games that are being played now. It's hard hockey. It's heavy hockey. It's a man's game. It's a big boy's game out there right now. In order to have success, I fully believe you have to have a team that can play in those games."

I hope he sticks to that if he comes here. Hell I hope he sticks to any direction instead of swinging back and forth on the roster depending on what the media and MLSE are saying that week. The pessimist in me is expecting “I tried big and mean in Calgary but it didn’t work, the game has changed and so have I” followed by an announcement that a Bud Light logo will now cover 50% of the jersey.

 

[Superstar]

Brian Burke has said it best, Leafs are a global brand up there with the Yankees, Cowboys, Lakers, Man U.

You think other franchises will have the type of practice facilities, medical and analytical staff Leafs do?? Doubt it

The Leafs as a team is in much better shape than Pittsburg also...I'm not sure how he'll deal with Crosby, Malkin and Letang...and Jeff Carter has one year left on his contract at $3.125 million with a NMC...they are in win now mode with a really old core.

 

[Menzinger]

Babcock was kind of NuHockey in the sense that he hated retaliation and said the PP would be the enforcer for the team. He wouldn't play Martin and he went on to play several more years on the Island.

Babcock's tough reputation is often very different from the type of hockey he employed in the ice. He never rolled with a goon type when with the Wings (while focusing instead on his super skilled star players there). Had zero time for Martin while he was here - even the season he played he only got like 5ish min a night

 

[andora]

According to Nick Kypreos:

- Kyle Dubas is waiting on making a decision whether he will accept the job in Pittsburgh or not

- if Kyle Dubas doesn't want the job, Jason Botterill might be hired as the new GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins

- will Eddie Olczyk be hired as the new President of the Pittsburgh Penguins?

Quit stealing the guys on the american broadcasts i like

f*** me i dont want to go back to sportsnet

So much for Leafs or a year off. The dude has zero integrity or honesty.
what an amateur show

Well he didnt pop up a week later.. so that was true

 

[Superstar]

Babcock's tough reputation is often very different from the type of hockey he employed in the ice. He never rolled with a goon type when with the Wings (while focusing instead on his super skilled star players there). Had zero time for Martin while he was here - even the season he played he only got like 5ish min a night

Who needs goons when you got Chelios, McCarty, Draper, Holmstrom, Shanahan, etc...these are some tough players who could play a gritty and heavy game...Shanahan could score like the best and also pound the crap out of someone like Bennett.

 

[Mess]

Is Treliving more of the same though?

This quote was from a few years ago so maybe he's changed his view but it sounds different than what we just had.

"I think the style of play, people talk about big and whatever word you want to use, I think you need to have heavy teams now," he said. "I think you have to play a heavy game. That's not just a personal preference. Turn on the TV tonight and watch the games."

"There are steps along the way. We've got to take a lot of steps but in order to be there at the end, to build a championship, you do have to have a blueprint and you look at the games that are being played now. It's hard hockey. It's heavy hockey. It's a man's game. It's a big boy's game out there right now. In order to have success, I fully believe you have to have a team that can play in those games."

Love hearing news like that ...

That is exactly the vision I see for the Leafs future a big heavy team that plays with bite and few skilled players to drive the offense.

 

[Cleetus]

 

[ToneDog]

Who could have guessed?

 

[francis246]

The Leafs as a team is in much better shape than Pittsburg also...I'm not sure how he'll deal with Crosby, Malkin and Letang...and Jeff Carter has one year left on his contract at $3.125 million with a NMC...they are in win now mode with a really old core.

I think what Dubas sold them on is being able to find depth guys. I’ve been pretty consistent, but I don’t think Pittsburgh is that hard of a fix. You have a core that is older but can still play. They missed the playoffs by a few points because of bad goaltending. If you can sign depth players that compliment the core and not trade assets I think you’re fine. As we’ve seen with Florida, all you need to do is get in and then let the players do the rest.

I’d have to think a couple Leaf UFAs will be headed to Pittsburgh, maybe Kerfoot, maybe Bunting, Maybe Kampf? Start rebuilding the bottom of the roster. Hopefully Samuel Poulin, Hallander, Pickering can make the jump. It’ll be a tough job but not impossible.

 

[Superstar]

I think what Dubas sold them on is being able to find depth guys. I’ve been pretty consistent, but I don’t think Pittsburgh is that hard of a fix. You have a core that is older but can still play. They missed the playoffs by a few points because of bad goaltending. If you can sign depth players that compliment the core and not trade assets I think you’re fine. As we’ve seen with Florida, all you need to do is get in and then let the players do the rest.

I’d have to think a couple Leaf UFAs will be headed to Pittsburgh, maybe Kerfoot, maybe Bunting, Maybe Kampf? Start rebuilding the bottom of the roster. Hopefully Samuel Poulin, Hallander, Pickering can make the jump. It’ll be a tough job but not impossible.

Their goal is to win the Cup like any other team, but I don't think they are capable of doing that...they should really be tearing it down and start their rebuild...Crosby and Malkin still has some decent value, but in a couple of years they won't have much. It will be interesting to see what happens over in Pittsburg and how they perform next season.

 

[trellaine201]

One thing I didn’t really think about until brought up by TSN radio today is the fact Dubas also hired a bazillion people around him. Look what the return was. Barely making round 2 in his five years and bazillion people in his support group.

 

[Arzak]

You're probably far too young to remember the Stellick / Smith / Cliff / JFJ / Burke / Nonis era Leafs.

People talk about the Dubas era as if it were that bleak time, despite being virtually the opposite.

I still give it 24 months before most of you finally realize that the grass isn't always greener.

I was merely reacting to a statement - Dubas is/was above average GM.
There are 32 GMs in this league, I'm not buying that he was better than 17 of them.


You can't pick random GMs from history and use them as proof of how great Kyle is.

Did Kyle really outwork 17 GMs in 2023? Because that's what it takes to be above average, not historical examples.

 

[Racer88]

Quit stealing the guys on the american broadcasts i like

f*** me i dont want to go back to sportsnet


Well he didnt pop up a week later.. so that was true

Hahahahahaha

 

[Leaf Fans]

They're not a semi woke organization like us that cares more about social issues thsan its fans. The ONLY THING that'll "wake up" this company from its 'wokeness' is when fans stay away in droves a la "BUD LITE" & "TARGET STORES" ETC....Mlse I've concluded dosent really care about its dwindling fanbase. They should sell the company to 1 owner.....we'd win the Cup within 5 years....

Who stays away from Bud Lite because of its company's precived wokeness? It is a terrible beer.

 

[geo25]

Oh yeah, I remember this. Considering how things ended up going, Shanahan looks pretty dumb for saying these things. For anyone that doesn't remember, here's a few excerpts and below a link where you can read what he said in it's ridiculous entirety.


“We need players who want to be Maple Leafs,” Shanahan said when discussing his team in generalities. “This may not be for everyone.
...
And at the end of the day, we see a great example with a John Tavares. We were able to attract a player like that who could have made more money elsewhere, who is still doing very, very well financially.
...
I can speak from my personal experience that when I get together with some of my old mates from the Cup years in Detroit, we talk about winning together and growing together and that’s what we remember looking back,” Shanahan said. “At the end of the day, we all found a way we could fit with each other so we could keep adding to the group and that is obviously what we’re asking some of our young leaders to do. There’s a lot of other voices and understandably so. Like I said, it’s not for everyone. What I hope they can look back on 20 years or 30 years down the road, what will be most important to them, is whether or not they maxed out as an individual and as a team and that they have championships to look back on."

https://thehockeynews.com/news/this-may-not-be-for-everyone-shanahan-talks-maple-leafs-and-hometown-discounts

Shanny never took a discount and always looked after #1..
Himself....ask CHELIOS...

 

[Tak7]

I was merely reacting to a statement - Dubas is/was above average GM.
There are 32 GMs in this league, I'm not buying that he was better than 17 of them.


You can't pick random GMs from history and use them as proof of how great Kyle is.

Did Kyle really outwork 17 GMs in 2023? Because that's what it takes to be above average, not historical examples.

If that's the bar you want to use, then the answer is yes - making Dubas above average.

Glad we can wrap that discussion up