Confirmed with Link: Kyle Dubas Not Returning

[andora]

I'm thinking it would be closer to a book then bullet points.

The strategy Dubas started with, that the Avs decided against, was fundamentally broken. As an outsider, it seemed like this was partly acknowledged early on. We sort of attempted pivots, but mostly it became, work with the mess that was made, and keep throwing stuff at the wall each year hoping we would eventually prevail on sheer talent and a bit of luck. Time ran out and now its a mess. Scrap it entirely.

I'd like the new GM to come in with a blueprint of what the contender team will look like, why it will win, and how we will get there. Every facet of the game will align to the plan - mgmt, coaching, players, culture, style, roles, cap, pairings, etc. It will evolve over time, but not along the lines of hockey basics like 'let's forget about physicality in the playoffs, no wait, lets put some back in.'

The time sensitive upcoming critical moves need to align to that long term plan, and will probably be the most important parts of achieving it, or at least achieving it quickly. Already we're working under strained conditions. Significant options and opportunities will soon dissappear.

I can follow most of this.. i can definitely agree on the alignment piece, it is like when usa college people refer to their sports as programs - i like that notion and i like the creedance behind it. Carolina runs a program in my opinion.

Ideally in a strong alignment pivots should only occur based on your upper players and contracts - not re signing so they are traded, or not re signing and leaving

The two parallel roads in which he built this team have always irked me because it was so distinct - top six bottom six and they looked it on the ice - versus having a collective 12 man unit playing the same way brings those roads together.

I know carolina is going to lose again and again could have used more scoring.. that aside their ability to play effective aggressive hockey with guys like noesen on a top line and martinook as a key 3rd line cog.. etc.

This team is far beyond the chapter headings like physicality or skill etc... it needs to be addressed to the basic theme of everyone do the same shit. Marner cannot keep playing the way he does at our blueline - others have their expectations of chip, get it out, nothing in the middle but others get green lights - that is wrong.

I dont really agree with strained conditions.. personally i see more strained by everyone looking in rather than the top guys involved doimg to work

You move past it pretty quick if youre all in on your job

What we know is that Dubas was ok with trading a core 4 player. According to Johnston, Shanahan called the core 4 and said they're staying.

If we hire another GM before then and we essentially run it back with the same core, then I feel Dubas' asked for autonomy is justified because Shanahan would've blocked a trade. Which makes us look even more of a clown organization because everyone is generally in agreement that after 7 years with minimal success, the core 4 has to be broken up.

I reserve judgment until July 1st passes.

Is that being reported as fact about the core 4 or is it being speculated

 

[Fogelhund]

Is that being reported as fact about the core 4 or is it being speculated

“What’s interesting to me is that Brendan Shanahan phoned each of the Leafs’ top players to share the news about Kyle Dubas, and those players came away from those conversations believing that Brendan Shanahan’s intention is to bring the entire core four back.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I wonder if Shanahan thought the issue was coaching etc and thought the core was fine so wanted to make a coach change while Dubas thought the issue was the core and thought the coaching was fine so wanted to make a core change.

 

[notDatsyuk]

All these Pittsburg rumours, won’t someone think about the family?

If he's all about family and 'Leafs or nobody', there's a former first overall pick who feels the same way, that I wouldn't mind him taking with him to Pittsburg.

 

[thewave]

“What’s interesting to me is that Brendan Shanahan phoned each of the Leafs’ top players to share the news about Kyle Dubas, and those players came away from those conversations believing that Brendan Shanahan’s intention is to bring the entire core four back.

You could also look at it as damage control. In the presser Dubas basically said teams trade big players to win. That was suggesting he could do the same and I think that sort of thing underhanded MLSE leading into the negotiations.

It's probably the #1 thing that got him fired.

 

[Fogelhund]

I wonder if Shanahan thought the issue was coaching etc and thought the core was fine so wanted to make a coach change while Dubas thought the issue was the core and thought the coaching was fine so wanted to make a core change.

We know so far that there was a difference of opinion on the core 4.

We don't know anything about the coaching though. Dubas hasn't said anything about Keefe, and neither has Shanahan.

I find it interesting that Dubas is gone, Marlies coaching staff is gone, but the Leafs coaching staff is currently still intact. Personally I would have thought that Keefe would have been relieved of duties already, but perhaps that is coming too.

If Keefe gets let go by the Leafs, and Dubas hires him in Pittsburgh/Ottawa, we will know our answers.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Going to be fun watching all the people celebrating Dubas being fired cry about how poor management is next season and going forward without a sense of irony. I'm sure the excuse is we hired the wrong GM. Damn if only Shanny didn't handcuff himself maybe we would get a better one than Treliving

Nah - they'll probably just stick to the truth: with the way Dubas messed up the signings of the big three, there's not much even a good GM can do.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

We know so far that there was a difference of opinion on the core 4.

We don't know anything about the coaching though. Dubas hasn't said anything about Keefe, and neither has Shanahan.

I find it interesting that Dubas is gone, Marlies coaching staff is gone, but the Leafs coaching staff is currently still intact. Personally I would have thought that Keefe would have been relieved of duties already, but perhaps that is coming too.

If Keefe gets let go by the Leafs, and Dubas hires him in Pittsburgh/Ottawa, we will know our answers.

Is that certain, or just educated speculation from insiders? I haven't been following it incredibly closely

My guess is they are waiting on the new GM to make the leaf coaching change. Give him the choice to keep Keefe or fire him to make that first change to the culture of the team.

Definitely, though I thought it was assumed Dubas is taking some time off? Is he now expected to jump right back into another GM role this year?

 

[eddieO]

Going to be fun watching all the people celebrating Dubas being fired cry about how poor management is next season and going forward without a sense of irony. I'm sure the excuse is we hired the wrong GM. Damn if only Shanny didn't handcuff himself maybe we would get a better one than Treliving

We'll still be celebrating that our current GM isn't Dubas. The only thing Dubas has clearly proven is that he can win a grand total of five games in the playoffs. Good riddance.

 

[andora]

“What’s interesting to me is that Brendan Shanahan phoned each of the Leafs’ top players to share the news about Kyle Dubas, and those players came away from those conversations believing that Brendan Shanahan’s intention is to bring the entire core four back.

Ok.. i personally take that as speculation

 

[Mess]

What we know is that Dubas was ok with trading a core 4 player. According to Johnston, Shanahan called the core 4 and said they're staying.

If we hire another GM before then and we essentially run it back with the same core, then I feel Dubas' asked for autonomy is justified because Shanahan would've blocked a trade. Which makes us look even more of a clown organization because everyone is generally in agreement that after 7 years with minimal success, the core 4 has to be broken up.

I reserve judgment until July 1st passes.

Couple of points for discussion, while we all reserve judgement.

Chris Johnston is very pro Dubas based on his reporting, but how would Johnston get inside info of private conversations between Shanny and the core 4?

Does CJ have these players on speed dial to contact them 24/7, so then after hearing Shanny was making calls, decided I'd better call up Auston, Mitch, WIlly and Johnny and ask them personally to tell him what Leafs President told them in private behind Leafs closed doors. So then are we to believe all 4 core Leafs players leaked that info to CJ so he could go public with his insider info? If that remote fact was even plausible would Shanny have a bigger problem because of trust and confidence issues of his core players going outside the team to relay information to the media?

How else would Chris Johnston get this exclusive scoop no one else did, and be able to make his claim of knowing what Shanahan said directly to them without asking them?

What experienced and reputable GM would take on a new job and have 1/2 the teams salary cap tied to 4 players that he is told is outside of his control and untouchable?

Second, Leafs don't even have a coach yet in place, so would it be wise prior to getting and having input Shanny has already tied the new GMs hands so anyone taking the job would be informed by Shanny these 4 players are untouchable because (reporter Chris Johnston) claims I made them a promise they would not be traded so as GM you work on the bottom end of the roster only?

Shanny would essentially be looking for his new puppet to put in the GM chair when he himself is really the acting GM making the important decisions.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Good. The core should be mad and uneasy. They crapped the bed. The only guy who took accountability for this teams faults is now gone and now they get to face the music.

Excellent post Warden. I don't understand the need that others have to kowtow to these players. I could understand the angst if they had actually won anything, but...

 

[ToneDog]

Tulsky could be available as soon as tonight if Canes are swept and leafs are interested.

 

[IPS]

Rumor was Dubas countered somewhere around 7 million per year. Wouldn't that make him the highest paid gm by a large margin? Holland makes 5 million for Edmonton.

How many teams are going yo give him more than the contract he was offered by Toronto? From the little bit of research I did, it doesn't sound like many.

Leverage my friend.

By making himself out to be the guy the core loves, and by aligning the core's NMC's with his own contract expiring - he essentially manufactured his own leverage by marketing himself as *the guy* to re-sign the superstars of the core. This guy refused to hold any of the core accountable, called criticism of them idiotic, and several other things. It's beyond obvious why he needed the core around no matter what, they were the key to him getting his own big pay day. I really believe it's the biggest reason why he didn't make any changes to the core throughout all the playoff failures

I keep laughing how it all blew up in his face. Few things in life make me happy like seeing greasy politicians' plans fail.

 

[Petrus]

Now the truth begins to slowly trickle out - - Dubas wanted “face time with the board” and to “address the board”.

What a little bag lick.

That would mean Dubas is lining himself up as a successor to Shanny or a potential replacement.

 

[IPS]

Especially getting absolute top dollar and up front money. It was, is, a horrible deal.

Getting that contract midseason with basically no negotiation needed (Dubas literally admitted this). Dubas and Matthews working for the same agency is way too f***ing fishy.

 

[notdoneyet]

The Penguins soght him out. They were close to hiring someone when Dubas potentially became available
They asked and were granted permission to speak to him. Did he agree to the interview? He didn't cry in the press conference. By Wednesday, he had discussed things with his family and decided to stay as a GM . Then he got word that the team was not going to renew the contract. With unemployment looming, he may have changed his mind. Shanny changed his mind about offering the contract.

Sunday offered him contract
Shanny advised him not to do press conference
Monday press conference
I don’t know if i want to be gm
I only want leafs gm
Wont be gm in the league if not leafs
Will step away as nhl gm

Thursday
Agent gives shanahan and board new contract ultimatum
Dubas fired

 

[Donnie740]

Tulsky could be available as soon as tonight if Canes are swept and leafs are interested.

The last thing Toronto needs is another spreadsheet gimp with ZERO hockey experience to replace the last spreadsheet gimp with ZERO hockey experience.

 

[ToneDog]

The last thing Toronto needs is another spreadsheet gimp with ZERO hockey experience to replace the last spreadsheet gimp with ZERO hockey experience.

Not familiar with him but many on this board like him. I think it will be Treliving but many don't like him. Hard to hire a worser GM than the last.

 

[andora]

Not familiar with him but many on this board like him. I think it will be Treliving but many don't like him. Hard to hire a worser GM than the last.

I wonder what the reaction to dubas going would be if he looked like treveling.. or if he looked like holland

 

[Mess]

There is talk about Dubas being a team President, perhaps Pittsburgh. Would Dubas the President not have a say in his teams trades?

There is even talk and rumour going around that Fenway Sports who also own the Boston Red Sox might consider Dubas (who is a big Baseball fan) as a hire in some capacity.

Then Dubas would go from MoneyPuck to MoneyBall analytics in some senior role in management for Fenway or perhaps both including the Pittsburgh Pens.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

FSG is quite competent as far as sports management go. Not surprised that they're sniffing around Dubas to see what lessons he's learned from his failure here in Toronto. The failure is there for everyone to see, but so too are the virtues.

He's got to have learned that loyalty is earned rather than granted, that coddling your players is a route to failure, and that decisive decisions must be made sooner rather than later. He failed here by signing our young guys to those stupid contracts and then hanging on through the experiment for far too long. He failed by letting the team have a horribly weak leadership structure, and that comes from his signings of Tavares, loyalty to Keefe, and coddling of Marner and Matthews. Nylander was the one he played hardball with and Nylander is the one who rewarded him. He failed by watching them fold against CBJ and running it back, then watching them fold against MTL and running it back, then accepting that a mild improvement against Tampa was good enough, and then when he watched them fold against FLA it was too late.

Failure is the greatest of teachers. To become great you must not be afraid to fail, and we will all fail along the way. You don't pop out of the womb as Jacques Lemaire, and Dubas came in with the hubris of youth and thought he could reinvent the wheel. He didn't have the background of Stevie Y or the longevity of Lou. But the promise of a young GM prospect is hard to ignore. He's got a good record as a talent evaluator, who's drafted decently well and who's trades improved as he went on and learned from failures. He's loyal at his core, which is simultaneously a weakness to be exploited and a strength that will help him build relationships. He's often overplayed his hand and that's cost us dearly, but that also speaks of a willingness to be decisive, which will serve him well as his judgement improves.

The real trick for his future will be whether he can really get inside the minds of his core and build a hockey team that works. He seemed to go off ideals rather than the players he had in front of them, trusting them when instead they needed to be held accountable. He managed to put some very good teams on ice here in Toronto, his work around the edges was consistently very good, but the core of our team was always less than the sum of their parts. If he can build a core that wins, he'll see a lot of success. If he can't crack the core nut, he will always be a pretender. FSG will do their diligence.

Okay, I "liked" this post but after thinking about it I've upgrade to "loving" it.

So many points that are well made and that make sense. "the core of our team was always less than the sum of their parts". That's really what finished him here and I'm not sure that it's his fault. He could have demanded more accountability and that might have worked and it might have blown up in his face.

Dubas had his strengths and weaknesses for sure, but he did get better with time. I think he needed one more year under Lou to watch and learn before he took over.

As for him now talking to Pitts, I don't hold him to what he said at his presser. He's an emotional guy and believed it at the time.

His family may also have had a follow up meeting with him. "You know all that stress we were under? I just realized having zero income will be even more stressful. Let me get Pitts on the phone for you....."

I think he'll go on to be a pretty good GM somewhere.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Know anything Chris Johnson doesn't? Nobody else in the media, nor Shanny himself has said anything that counters it so far

Yes. I know that CJ has zero credibility.

 

[4thline]

The last thing Toronto needs is another spreadsheet gimp with ZERO hockey experience to replace the last spreadsheet gimp with ZERO hockey experience.

I guy like Tulsky sheds more hockey knowledge with his morning deuce than you'll ever have

 

[hockeywiz542]

According to DailyFaceoff's Frank Seravalli:

• With Kyle Dubas gone, the chances of Auston Matthews not re-signing with the Toronto Maple Leafs has in fact, multiplied in the last few days since Kyle Dubas is gone from Toronto.

• Auston Matthews is tight with Kyle Dubas.

• Auston Matthews and the rest of his camp appreciates how Kyle Dubas conducted himself, his vision for the Toronto Maple Leafs and plans for the hockey team's future.

• Auston Matthews played his best hockey with Mitch Marner.

• Some Toronto Maple Leafs players say that Auston Matthews is a pretty private guy.