Confirmed with Link: Kyle Dubas Not Returning

[Twine Tickler]

Did you expect us to hire a new GM literally like 3 days after Dubas was let go?

Ya pretty much.

I expect our president to have a plan. Not to make decisions based entirely on emotion or gut feelings without having a fallback option.

We have one of the busiest offseason's in recent history, and Shanny has just sent a shockwave throughout the entire organization without having any direction on where to go from here. It's going to be hard to convince Auston and Willy to resign with us when the person at the head of the snake doesn't even know what direction he is going at the current moment.

This was a shoot from the hip decision from Shanny. The fact that he is so unprepared to adjust is mind numbing.

 

[DarkKnight]

Mirtle on the Fan outlining the potential chaos that looms, so many critical questions for the team. Bunkis points out Dubas brought us here. What to do with Matthews? Maybe not let him become a UFA at 26 freaking years old lol.

 

[weems]

Ya pretty much.

I expect our president to have a plan. Not to make decisions based entirely on emotion or gut feelings without having a fallback option.

We have one of the busiest offseason's in recent history, and Shanny has just sent a shockwave throughout the entire organization without having any direction on where to go from here. It's going to be hard to convince Auston and Willy to resign with us when the person at the head of the snake doesn't even know what direction he is going at the current moment.

This was a shoot from the hip decision from Shanny. The fact that he is so unprepared to adjust is mind numbing.

So what if a potential GM candidate becomes available that you currently didn't think would be.

For instance what if David Poile is retired and is basically done but the only team he would possibly think about returning for is his hometown Toronto job?

You might not have known that but now that the position is open, maybe his agent reachs out to the team and expresses interest.

What if a current GM has a clause in his contract that if a certain job becomes available they can leave?

I understand what you mean and I agree that time is of the essense but I would not be freaking out just yet. If say in 1-2 weeks that is the case, then yes I would start to become concerned but this is still very early after everything went down.

 

[Fogelhund]

Frank Seravalli had actually reported back in mid April, well before the Dubas contract stuff was ultimately decided that there has been a growing rift over some time between him and Shanny.

Insider reporting a rift forming in Leafs' front office involving Kyle Dubas

Daily Faceoff's Frank Seravalli is reporting that there is a bit of a rift forming between two high-ranking front office employees in Toronto

www.mapleleafsinsider.com

I think it's fair to point out there hasnt been a ton of a ton of coverage on this issue, which may very well be down to the fact that it was more on the interpersonal level between those two men, they probably weren't having screaming matches at Scotiabank lol that others could hear about.

Personally, reading between the lines of a bit of the stuff that's come out, I suspect Shanahan simply significantly underestimated how much the relationship had deteriorated and hadn't done enough due diligence in the lead up to last week to make sure everything was fine. Then everything just quickly snowballed into an avalanche in a short amount of time

I think we've talked about this a few times now, and it's highly probable Frank is right about this. With hindsight, you can see the relationship had deteriorated. Who would want a GM role, when they couldn't make the team the way they wanted? You've got all the responsibility, and blame, but not all the power. Just to repeat what I've said before, that isn't blaming Shanahan, or excusing Dubas in any way... To me, you either trust your GM, or you need to replace them. It doesn't matter who they are... the exceptions to me, are getting board approval on big dollar contracts. But trades, hiring... that's the GM's job, let them do it. I mean if Shanahan wants the final say on things, go ahead, be the GM.

 

[hockeywiz542]

According to DailyFaceoff's Frank Seravalli:

• Kyle Dubas and Jason Spezza were both well-respected among the group of players and enjoyed interacting with them as well.

• Does Kyle Dubas really wants the Pittsburgh Penguins GM job?

• It seems as though the Pittsburgh Penguins GM job is not high on Kyle Dubas' priority list.

• Once the Ottawa Senators ownership situation is settled, it would probably be much more enticing for Kyle Dubas to join that hockey club since they are on the upswing and he grew up an Ottawa Senators fan.



What role could Iginla have with Flames and is Treliving the front-runner for Leafs job?

7:45 | May 23, 2023

DailyFaceoff's Frank Seravalli joins Sportsnet Central to discuss the hot topics around the NHL world including the Flames' front-office revamp, who is leading the pack for Leafs' GM and does Dubas want Penguins' job?

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Mirtle on the Fan outlining the potential chaos that looms, so many critical questions for the team. Bunkis points out Dubas brought us here. What to do with Matthews? Maybe not let him become a UFA at 26 freaking years old lol.

Matthews at a 5 year deal was honestly idiotic, as was all the NTC kicking in at the same time. Shame Dubas had to learn all these lessons with a stacked core in the biggest market on the planet.

 

[CDN24]

Matthews at a 5 year deal was honestly idiotic, as was all the NTC kicking in at the same time. Shame Dubas had to learn all these lessons with a stacked core in the biggest market on the planet.

Letting an experienced GM and negotiator go and replacing them with someone with no experience right before needing to sign the 3 most important extensions in franchise history was pretty idiotic in hindsight too.

 

[Northernguy10]

https://thehockeynews.com/news/opinion-maple-leafs-parting-with-kyle-dubas-rings-alarm-bells

 

[LeafEgo]

#3 IS 100% WRONG, Kerfoot was Not protected.
#4 and #5 were pretty bad.
#4 though was to give the player a chance, as he couldnt crack our lineup, but, then they played Malgin who shouldnt have been able to crack our lineup either, which made it worse.
#5 was a bad signing even in concept
#6 Murray signing.
letting Anderson walk wasnt bad, Campbell had been outplaying him and earned a chance, then he blew it.

Effectively Kerfoot was protected.

A foolproof plan was put in motion: acquire a player more valuable than some our current players, to ensure that the expansion team selected the more valuable player, protecting players on our team that were not as valuable.

The whole thing went off without a hitch.

 

[The Masters]

Shanny made the 100% right call on Dubas but now he's still in a tough spot here. I honestly believe he's hoping one of these experienced GM's (Mcphee / Army) under contract seek interest and become a life saver for him. Also, if he somehow manages to get a GM from another team, they won't be able to participate in the draft. But that also causes a problem because we need a GM at least 2 weeks prior to July 1 to get acclimated and work on possible trades + Matthews extension.

Whoever gets this gig is in a tough spot from the get go. I don't see how he goes with another rookie GM and I dont think thats the case. This is Shanny's likely last hire before he's fired so he has to make it count

 

[Menzinger]

I think we've talked about this a few times now, and it's highly probable Frank is right about this. With hindsight, you can see the relationship had deteriorated. Who would want a GM role, when they couldn't make the team the way they wanted? You've got all the responsibility, and blame, but not all the power. Just to repeat what I've said before, that isn't blaming Shanahan, or excusing Dubas in any way... To me, you either trust your GM, or you need to replace them. It doesn't matter who they are... the exceptions to me, are getting board approval on big dollar contracts. But trades, hiring... that's the GM's job, let them do it. I mean if Shanahan wants the final say on things, go ahead, be the GM.

There's a reason why most GMs tend to hold both the GM AND President position simultaneously - or work for an org that the President strictly stays focused on business not hockey ops decisions.

The Leafs setup was fairly unique. Burke as President in Pittsburgh was sort of similar to Shanny I guess.

In retrospect we can see why this set-up may not be ideal, especially as Dubas' gained more experience,he'd likely want to be more assertive ect

 

[Fogelhund]

https://thehockeynews.com/news/opinion-maple-leafs-parting-with-kyle-dubas-rings-alarm-bells

If the reports of Dubas having decision-making power lessened are true, and I have no reason to believe they aren’t, that should raise alarm bells. I say this because it mirrors the current landscape at Toronto FC in that ownership has become more involved in decision-making there as well. The MLSE board and Shanahan had reason to have reservations when Dubas’ agent came back with a significantly different financial package. Anyone would. If that was the reason the parties decided to go their separate ways, MLSE has lost a bright young executive, and Dubas should fire his agent. However, if the crux of the issue was that Dubas wanted control of hockey operations, the department he oversaw, he should have been afforded that. Not a single Leafs fan would say they’d prefer the telecom executive making hockey decisions over Dubas and they’d be correct.

Something Leiweke said when I worked at MLSE has stuck with me years later: “If you’re going to get rid of someone, you better have someone better in mind.” I’ve seen quite a few names in the rumor mill, and I’m not sure any of them are better than Dubas. From a hockey standpoint, there will be arguments.

From a human standpoint, Kyle Dubas led a forward-thinking, positive culture. It is rare in hockey that not a single person within an organization has a bad thing to say about someone. When Jason Spezza resigns and Auston Matthews might no longer be sure about signing an extension, it speaks to how well-respected Dubas is. He’s earned that loyalty.

If the decision to show Dubas the door ends with Matthews following, the blame should lie squarely with MLSE’s board, who will have cost themselves millions of dollars by allowing the most talented player in franchise history to walk because they wouldn’t allow his boss to make the decisions he was hired to make. One thing is for sure, the money MLSE will cost themselves if Matthews leaves is far greater than the money Dubas asked for. No doubt about that. In the end, last week may go down as the one that plunged the Toronto Maple Leafs back into chaos over what seems to be a couple million bucks and boardroom drama. That seems quite ridiculous when the ownership group is worth nearly 100 billion dollars, but I guess this is what real-life Succession is.

 

[Mess]

He's transcribing the latest Friedman podcast Mess, don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the news

The messenger I was questioning was some random guy from North Carolina who claims don't trust my twitter posts, & not yourself. Sorry if that was misunderstood.

Even if you listen to Chris Johnston pod cast you would still need to question his opinion also and fact find his story/sources.

First in order to CJ to have that knowledge he would have had to call the core 4 personally and ask them what President Shanny told them in a private and personal conversation to confirm they were all told they're staying, then break that player trust and go public with it on his pod cast. That might actually give a reason for Shanny to actual move them, betaying trust and confidence.

However if you listen to the pod cast itself .. Chris Johnston has qualifiers in every sentence .. "I get the impression", "new GM could change everything", "Nothing written in stone" "Only the situation at present" etc. etc. My take away being only a reassurance from Shanny that they're not currently actively being shopped, which would be true since Leafs don't have a GM in place to make a deal anyways.

I also don't believe it would be wise for Shanny to tell the core 4 anything else anyways at this time, as that news would certainly get out and cause even more chaos and lower Leafs trade leverage of players being shopped. You know how Leafs like to keep such things private and not public. How are you going to negoatiate new contracts for Matthews and Nylander, if you start the talks off with we're currently trying to trade you and breaking up the core?

Unless somebody knocks the Leafs socks off with an offer they can't refuse, I don't think Leafs are trying to move them just for the sake of change either as they're good players and it would be hard to deal some of them for a good enough return to move on from them anyways, and not take a step backwards and/or face the heat of a bad trade.

 

[Fogelhund]

I also don't believe it would be wise for Shanny to tell the core 4 anything else at this time, as that news would certainly get out and cause even more chaos and lower Leafs trade leverage of players being shopped. You know how Leafs like to keep such things private and not public. How are you going to negoatiate new contracts for Matthews and Nylander, if you start the talks off with we're currently trying to trade you?

Unless somebody knocks the Leafs socks off with an offer they can't refuse, I don't think Leafs are trying to move them just for the sake of change either as they're good players and it would be hard to deal some of them for a good enough return to move on from them anyways, and not take a step backwards and/or face the heat of a bad trade.

At this juncture, everything depends on Matthews. If the won't resign, this team might as well move Marner too, and rebuild.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Frank Seravalli had actually reported back in mid April, well before the Dubas contract stuff was ultimately decided that there has been a growing rift over some time between him and Shanny.

Insider reporting a rift forming in Leafs' front office involving Kyle Dubas

Daily Faceoff's Frank Seravalli is reporting that there is a bit of a rift forming between two high-ranking front office employees in Toronto

www.mapleleafsinsider.com

I think it's fair to point out there hasnt been a ton of a ton of coverage on this issue, which may very well be down to the fact that it was more on the interpersonal level between those two men, they probably weren't having screaming matches at Scotiabank lol that others could hear about.

Personally, reading between the lines of a bit of the stuff that's come out, I suspect Shanahan simply significantly underestimated how much the relationship had deteriorated and hadn't done enough due diligence in the lead up to last week to make sure everything was fine. Then everything just quickly snowballed into an avalanche in a short amount of time

Thanks for this. I remember it now that you re-posted it, but I don't recall it gaining much traction around here that something like this usually would. Especially since it was written in April well after the trade deadline.

I won't argue that there perhaps some interference by Shanahan. And yeah, we'd have to hear Dubas's side of the story on it. But I'd like to know what kind of moves was Dubas blocked from making. Was he considering moving one of the big four? Was he looking to go all-in at all costs and Shanahan stepped in as to not have the future of the team further compromised? Did Shanahan just not like the direction the team was going and no longer trusted Dubas, thus not allowing him to go trade wild?

It's disheartening to hear that ownership/management interference (perhaps) is creeping back into this organization's structure. And I think it'll be a telltale sign as to who becomes the next GM, and if we here of any candidates bowing out because they weren't given assurances of having full autonomy.

I still think both parties mishandled things, and Dubas is just as much to blame in this whole thing, if not being the prime reason for what has transpired.

Time will tell, but I've never denied my hesitancy/dislike of Dubas as GM, so I don't find his dismissal/removal all that earth-shattering to this organization as some are making it out to be.

 

[NMacrules]

That was Lamoriello and his famous picture day prospect purge. Guy was the only C prospect in the org and he got dumped.

Everyone says it was lou lam but if you remember Dubas was next in line and had his influence all over it.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Letting an experienced GM and negotiator go and replacing them with someone with no experience right before needing to sign the 3 most important extensions in franchise history was pretty idiotic in hindsight too.

I don't disagree, but the fact is Dubas got a fair market offer and he either got greedy or his heart was not 100% in it. Had Dubas wanted the job, he'd be GM of the Leafs right now.

Why is this guy is such a hurry to get the GM role, get full autonomy, get paid like the highest GM in the league? Does he have some kind of terminal illness that we don't know about? He's 37 years old, you have guys who are lifers in the NHL who'd kill to have what Dubas had in his early 30s.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Predicting the New Penguins Front Office, and Why

The Pittsburgh Penguins and ownership group Fenway Sports Group narrowed their search and began second interviews. Their course was set until the shocking twist in Toronto when Maple Leafs’ ownership and president Brendan Shanahan reversed course and dismissed GM Kyle Dubas. And now the...

pittsburghhockeynow.com

The Pittsburgh Penguins and ownership group Fenway Sports Group narrowed their search and began second interviews. Their course was set until the shocking twist in Toronto when Maple Leafs’ ownership and president Brendan Shanahan reversed course and dismissed GM Kyle Dubas.

And now the Penguins’ process is making a U-turn talk to Dubas before proceeding.

The Dubas opportunity is perfectly timed for the Penguins. Dubas brings some of the same out-of-the-box thinking on analytics and roster construction that John Chayka brought, but without the industry baggage and distrust. And Dubas had a lot more success.

Dubas would be a perfect leader for the Penguins, but not as GM. After five years in the GM chair, perhaps he’s ready for the additional powers he sought but was denied in Toronto. And perhaps he would be an ideal mentor for a first-time GM with a similar outlook.

If all sides are willing, Dubas would be the right type for president of hockey operations to put forth a course and philosophy.

Dubas would agree with coach Mike Sullivan on at least one point: rebuilding the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins and establishing a more competitive farm system. The Penguins’ American Hockey League affiliate fell into disrepair this season and was not competitive.

Prospects Filip Hallander and goalie Fillip Lindberg subsequently bolted home to Sweden and Finland, respectively.

Dubas joined Toronto in 2014 as assistant general manager and oversaw the construction of the Toronto Marlies, who won a Calder Cup with him as GM.

Dubas conducted multiple strong drafts, despite picking near the end of the round. The Maple Leafs snagged Rasmus Sandin (2018, 29th overall), Sean Durzi (2018, 52nd overall), Nick Robertson (2019, 53rd overall), and Mathew Knies (2021, 57th overall).

The Penguins could use some help at the draft table. They’ve received just seven games of NHL service from draft picks, dating to 2017. Calen Addison has played 80 NHL games for Minnesota, and he’s the only pick in the last six years to reach double-digits.

On paper, the best pick for GM is Steve Greeley, barely inching ahead of Eric Tulsky, but either would jell with Dubas and his philosophy.

We like Greeley just a bit more than Tulsky for two reasons.

Greeley has overseen several drafts rated A+ over the past four years. While he runs analytics in Dallas, he’s also head of scouting and player development. That’s combining both ends of the spectrum.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

If the reports of Dubas having decision-making power lessened are true, and I have no reason to believe they aren’t, that should raise alarm bells. I say this because it mirrors the current landscape at Toronto FC in that ownership has become more involved in decision-making there as well. The MLSE board and Shanahan had reason to have reservations when Dubas’ agent came back with a significantly different financial package. Anyone would. If that was the reason the parties decided to go their separate ways, MLSE has lost a bright young executive, and Dubas should fire his agent. However, if the crux of the issue was that Dubas wanted control of hockey operations, the department he oversaw, he should have been afforded that. Not a single Leafs fan would say they’d prefer the telecom executive making hockey decisions over Dubas and they’d be correct.

Something Leiweke said when I worked at MLSE has stuck with me years later: “If you’re going to get rid of someone, you better have someone better in mind.” I’ve seen quite a few names in the rumor mill, and I’m not sure any of them are better than Dubas. From a hockey standpoint, there will be arguments.

From a human standpoint, Kyle Dubas led a forward-thinking, positive culture. It is rare in hockey that not a single person within an organization has a bad thing to say about someone. When Jason Spezza resigns and Auston Matthews might no longer be sure about signing an extension, it speaks to how well-respected Dubas is. He’s earned that loyalty.

If the decision to show Dubas the door ends with Matthews following, the blame should lie squarely with MLSE’s board, who will have cost themselves millions of dollars by allowing the most talented player in franchise history to walk because they wouldn’t allow his boss to make the decisions he was hired to make. One thing is for sure, the money MLSE will cost themselves if Matthews leaves is far greater than the money Dubas asked for. No doubt about that. In the end, last week may go down as the one that plunged the Toronto Maple Leafs back into chaos over what seems to be a couple million bucks and boardroom drama. That seems quite ridiculous when the ownership group is worth nearly 100 billion dollars, but I guess this is what real-life Succession is.

Cool story bro. And that's what it is. Fiction.

 

[rumman]

4 days post Dubas being let go, and still no trace of a Shanaplan 2.0. Not even a whisper. I love having no direction heading into one of the busiest off-season's in recent history.

Patience……….

 

[Throw More Waffles]

At least it was a classy response that Dubas just tweeted. No mudslinging. Just thanking the organization.

Shanahan probably should have just said they met with Dubas and negotiated but decided to go another direction. There was no reason to get into the whole timeline. Looks disfunctional.

 

[Ronellis]

Dubas can't help himself and doubles down on publicly dragging his family into his professional world.

 

[Pinkcat]

Ya pretty much.

I expect our president to have a plan. Not to make decisions based entirely on emotion or gut feelings without having a fallback option.

We have one of the busiest offseason's in recent history, and Shanny has just sent a shockwave throughout the entire organization without having any direction on where to go from here. It's going to be hard to convince Auston and Willy to resign with us when the person at the head of the snake doesn't even know what direction he is going at the current moment.

This was a shoot from the hip decision from Shanny. The fact that he is so unprepared to adjust is mind numbing.

I find that to be a pretty naïve take. Multi-billion dollar businesses always have contingency operations plans and more significantly, succession plans.

 

[justashadowof]

I can't believe I'm suggesting this but I'll do it anyways: Brian Burke as the short term GM using the existing talent in the organization. He could be largely hands off on the day to day functions but can facilitate the bigger picture, mission critical decisions that have to be made in the next 5 weeks.

 

[ShaneFalco]

If the reports of Dubas having decision-making power lessened are true, and I have no reason to believe they aren’t, that should raise alarm bells. I say this because it mirrors the current landscape at Toronto FC in that ownership has become more involved in decision-making there as well. The MLSE board and Shanahan had reason to have reservations when Dubas’ agent came back with a significantly different financial package. Anyone would. If that was the reason the parties decided to go their separate ways, MLSE has lost a bright young executive, and Dubas should fire his agent. However, if the crux of the issue was that Dubas wanted control of hockey operations, the department he oversaw, he should have been afforded that. Not a single Leafs fan would say they’d prefer the telecom executive making hockey decisions over Dubas and they’d be correct.

Something Leiweke said when I worked at MLSE has stuck with me years later: “If you’re going to get rid of someone, you better have someone better in mind.” I’ve seen quite a few names in the rumor mill, and I’m not sure any of them are better than Dubas. From a hockey standpoint, there will be arguments.

From a human standpoint, Kyle Dubas led a forward-thinking, positive culture. It is rare in hockey that not a single person within an organization has a bad thing to say about someone. When Jason Spezza resigns and Auston Matthews might no longer be sure about signing an extension, it speaks to how well-respected Dubas is. He’s earned that loyalty.

If the decision to show Dubas the door ends with Matthews following, the blame should lie squarely with MLSE’s board, who will have cost themselves millions of dollars by allowing the most talented player in franchise history to walk because they wouldn’t allow his boss to make the decisions he was hired to make. One thing is for sure, the money MLSE will cost themselves if Matthews leaves is far greater than the money Dubas asked for. No doubt about that. In the end, last week may go down as the one that plunged the Toronto Maple Leafs back into chaos over what seems to be a couple million bucks and boardroom drama. That seems quite ridiculous when the ownership group is worth nearly 100 billion dollars, but I guess this is what real-life Succession is.

They sure didn't play like they'd go for a wall for him
A couple million and boardroom drama....chaos.....lol whatever