Confirmed with Link: Kyle Dubas Not Returning

[ToneDog]

What I don't get is Dubas saying it was Leafs or nothing and then pulling his power play at the 11th hour. Why take away that leverage if you wanted more dough and autonomy ?? Love to hear what your thinking was Kyle.

 

[BallardEra]

What I don't get is Dubas saying it was Leafs or nothing and then pulling his power play at the 11th hours. Why take that leverage away ?? Love to hear what your thinking was Kyle.

We won't know until we hear his side of the story. For all we know the Shanahan offer didn't provide the autonomy he wanted. Maybe he slept on it, asked for concessions and Shanahan said no.

It amazes me that a lot of people (not saying you are) are taking what Shanahan is saying as the "100% truth" in all of this.

I'd be saying the same thing too if we only heard Dubas' side of the story first and never heard what Shanahan had to say.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

yep, the truth is out there for all to see now. What a dink. I thought I liked Dubas as a person but his behaviour was weak sauce and he deserved to be kicked to the curb. His word means nothing to me now and if Im a potential employer it would be difficult to look past his actions and words. Very disappointing he turned out the way he did but a lot of his tenure makes sense to me now.

I can tell you as an employer, I wouldn’t look at any potential hire that I found out had left a previous employer and that on their way out tried to inflict damage on their former company.

It looks really bad, and as a potential employer, I would know what I would be facing when that employee ultimately left my company.

So, I don’t think it does Dubas any favours when guys like Spezza immediately resign. Ditto for all the media leaks that seem to be coming out and smell like they might originate from people associated with the Dubas camp. Employees that create a clique within a company and create divisions are also not attractive potential employees.

If I was an owner or hiring executive on another team, I would be taking note of what is going on right now with the Leafs.

 

[Stephen]

Shanahan warned Dubas about going live so close to the failure.

His emotions got the best of him, but it could have been negotiating tactic that failed.

The one thing everyone really needs is clarity about what he asked for.
Not the money part, that's always negotiable.
It is the authority part.
If he found he was limited in his authority maybe that was the breaking point?
And if he asking for the ability to bypass Shanahan ... well that wasn't happening.
If he proved Shanahan wasn't required ... when is the last time you succeeded in getting your boss to tell his boss that his position was redundant?

Kyle Dubas' powerplay was missing real success. If he built a Stanley Cup winning team for us, and that was evident in house to MLSE board members he did the heavy lifting while Shanahan was just a cardboard cutout in a suit, he would be the Indispensable One. The conversation topic would be, how do we keep this conquering hero in house so we can push this to a dynasty? He would be playing up to the mob at the parade however he wanted to and we would have all wanted him back, be President Dubas, take full control!

 

[Stand Witness]

I can tell you as an employer, I wouldn’t look at any potential hire that I found out had left a previous employer and that on their way out tried to inflict damage on their former company.

It looks really bad, and as a potential employer, I would know what I would be facing when that employee ultimately left my company.

So, I don’t think it does Dubas any favours when guys like Spezza immediately resign. Ditto for all the media leaks that seem to be coming out and smell like they might originate from people associated with the Dubas camp. Employees that create a clique within a company and create divisions are also not attractive potential employees.

If I was an owner or hiring executive on another team, I would be taking note of what is going on right now with the Leafs.

You also aren’t hiring for a position that has a handful of people qualified to apply for it.

Or maybe you are, and if so, congrats you are probably rich af.

Regardless, I don’t think its a consensus opinion that Dubas went out kicking and screaming by any means.

 

[justashadowof]

Penguin's ownership: "So Kyle, do you think you could lock up Crosby, Malkin, and Letang until they retire?"
Dubas: "We can and we will!"

In all seriousness, the next Pittsburgh GM's first move in Pittsburgh should be buying out the final 2 years on Crosby's contract then getting Malkin and Letang follow up with waiving their no movements to a desirable destination. The buyout does Crosby a huge favour allowing him to pick his destination and get paid market value for his final years in the league.

 

[Stephen]

We won't know until we hear his side of the story. For all we know the Shanahan offer didn't provide the autonomy he wanted. Maybe he slept on it, asked for concessions and Shanahan said no.

It amazes me that a lot of people (not saying you are) are taking what Shanahan is saying as the "100% truth" in all of this.

I'd be saying the same thing too if we only heard Dubas' side of the story first and never heard what Shanahan had to say.

"Autonomy" is a loaded word people aren't thinking about enough here, as in "from whom" and "to do what." That implies a promotion, and in a hierarchy, it's a zero sum game taking control away from someone else. And based on what does Kyle deserve those things?

 

[BallardEra]

"Autonomy" is a loaded word people aren't thinking about enough here, as in "from whom" and "to do what." That implies a promotion, and in a hierarchy, it's a zero sum game taking control away from someone else. And based on what does Kyle deserve those things?

I agree with you.

Having said that, we simply don't know what exactly he wanted or might have been promised. People taking one side of the story from Shanahan as the total truth isn't right. Same thing with people thinking this was all about money.

It's much deeper than that for sure especially hearing about the friction between the two for well over a year now.

 

[ULF_55]

Kyle Dubas' powerplay was missing real success. If he built a Stanley Cup winning team for us, and that was evident in house to MLSE board members he did the heavy lifting while Shanahan was just a cardboard cutout in a suit, he would be the Indispensable One. The conversation topic would be, how do we keep this conquering hero in house so we can push this to a dynasty? He would be playing up to the mob at the parade however he wanted to and we would have all wanted him back, be President Dubas, take full control!

I would have been fine with Dubas re-signing.
Unless it meant Keefe stayed.

Keefe has to go, and/or one of the Triple Double.

 

[justashadowof]

Kyle Dubas' powerplay was missing real success. If he built a Stanley Cup winning team for us, and that was evident in house to MLSE board members he did the heavy lifting while Shanahan was just a cardboard cutout in a suit, he would be the Indispensable One. The conversation topic would be, how do we keep this conquering hero in house so we can push this to a dynasty? He would be playing up to the mob at the parade however he wanted to and we would have all wanted him back, be President Dubas, take full control!

If we think about it strategically, blocking the odd trade or signing by the president is just as likely to make the president look good as look bad. Especially trade deadline rental deals that usually have the shelf life of fresh fish when a team doesn't win the big prize.

 

[Mess]

I don't think Kyle Dubas is a puppet. I think they worked by committee in their complex Leaf bubble until it wasn't convenient anymore.

I just think of it as a classic political powerplay. Capitalize on a crisis (pending UFA status of star players), appeal to public sentiment, return as the reluctant leader, isolate all your political adversaries and take over as President, GM under a consolidated portfolio. I don't take it personally, it's not against me, but what was missing here that was worthy of criticism were the lack of victorious campaigns.

You saw a lot of this playbook done by Pat Quinn to lock out Anders Hedberg, Mike Smith, Ken Dryden.

The newly exposed up and down chain of command approval needed from Dubas, gives off the vibe of "adult supervision required" over the GM position.

Dubas was essentially their analytics GM, trying to reinvent the wheel of HockeyPuck management as the future to NHL success, pushing the boundaries of inside messaged data, driving player contracts and team building strategies.

Dubas thought he was selling 4-D Chess to the board that would give them an advantage over others still playing checkers in terms of playoff success. In the end he sold the BOD and Shanny a bill of goods because Leafs were among the least successful teams come playoff time. That is terrible leverage in contract talks, with 1 series win over 5 years !!!

In the end Dubas overplayed his hand and his perceived importance to the organization, trying to parlay his unique propitiatory skill set of analytics in conjunction with your point of crisis management based on timing of organizational pressing needs, and the play fell flat and even backfired into being relieved of the limited power he currently even had to unemployed.

 

[Trapper]

What I don't get is Dubas saying it was Leafs or nothing and then pulling his power play at the 11th hour. Why take away that leverage if you wanted more dough and autonomy ?? Love to hear what your thinking was Kyle.

I don’t understand why you wouldn’t negotiate that in private with Shanahan. Why Dubas didn’t sit down with him and talk about the things he didn’t like on the contract. Not say ok, go to a press conference, bring his family into it, ghost Shanny for a few days and then deliver a new contract offer?

 

[ULF_55]

Kyle Dubas' powerplay was missing real success. If he built a Stanley Cup winning team for us, and that was evident in house to MLSE board members he did the heavy lifting while Shanahan was just a cardboard cutout in a suit, he would be the Indispensable One. The conversation topic would be, how do we keep this conquering hero in house so we can push this to a dynasty? He would be playing up to the mob at the parade however he wanted to and we would have all wanted him back, be President Dubas, take full control!

And we don't know if there was validity in that request.

Was he blocked in making a move that he believes could have made a difference?

I don't know, I really think it comes down to coaching.

 

[BallardEra]

I don’t understand why you wouldn’t negotiate that in private with Shanahan. Why Dubas didn’t sit down with him and talk about the things he didn’t like on the contract. Not say ok, go to a press conference, bring his family into it, ghost Shanny for a few days and then deliver a new contract offer?

It's quite possible he did and then Shanahan said he wouldn't budge on the contract. Dubas could have walked away but then media and fans would blame him for the "mess" left behind.

I think there is a lot here that we don't know about. Did Shanahan even truly want Dubas back?

Why offer 5 years and then not sit down to hammer out a deal if both sides truly wanted to be together for 5 years?

It doesn't add up.

 

[Racer88]

Thank god cause I can say that if they just ran it back I was going to have a tantrum

My mind was going to explode

 

[Trapper]

My mind was going to explode

They could still be running it back with the core. That’s unknown.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

You also aren’t hiring for a position that has a handful of people qualified to apply for it.

Or maybe you are, and if so, congrats you are probably rich af.

Regardless, I don’t think its a consensus opinion that Dubas went out kicking and screaming by any means.

What I posted is pretty common sense payroll 101 stuff, regardless of the payscale Involved.

And quite frankly, there are often clauses included in standard employment agreements covering many of these types of issues these days.

Dubas isn’t special enough to warrant ignoring common sense hiring practices.

 

[sxvnert]

I missed the dubas drama for the entire day as I was stuck at work. It was a tough day at work for a Friday to boot; but when I got home and I saw the news; it instantly became the best friday ever

I'd LMAO if Dubas blamed the fans. LOL

He left the "stressed out" purposely open to interpretation which is what rubbed me the wrong way. Was it the fan base, was it the lame duck contract, was it Shanny, was it the constant failure, was it the complete failure of analytics and having to pivot this past deadline.

 

[Racer88]

What I don't get is Dubas saying it was Leafs or nothing and then pulling his power play at the 11th hour. Why take away that leverage if you wanted more dough and autonomy ?? Love to hear what your thinking was Kyle.

It was Dubas lost in his own Hubris thinking that he was indispensable.
It was the classic, I think I might move on ya know……I’m not sure……the ploy was thinking that Shanny would think holy crap we might lose him and we can’t live without him, we better give him whatever he wants.
Shanny was not going to be manipulate like that

 

[sxvnert]

lol, he wants 15M? dream on. move him before his NTC kicks in.

The max I'd give him is 13M for 5 or 7 years.

Asking for 15m over 8yr is basically saying I want out but too much of a coward to admit it.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Former NHL President’s POV on Leafs’ GM Change | Kyper & Bourne

SPORTSNET

May 19, 2023 Real Kyper & Bourne

Former NHL President and GM Doug MacLean joined Nick Kypreos and Gord Stellick to give his perspective on the fallout of the Maple Leafs' front office.

This was a really good listen, excellent quotes from former NHL president and GM Maclean:

“I think Dubas really wanted to stay…and I think he got caught.”

On Dubas’ wavering commitment to coming back at the press conference:

“You just don’t do that.”

 

[Buds17]

I would have been fine with Dubas re-signing.
Unless it meant Keefe stayed.

Keefe has to go, and/or one of the Triple Double.

I was also of this viewpoint. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if this notion was central to the position in which things currently stand within, and exterior to, the organization. I think a team ultimately has to be happy to have both or neither of Dubas and Keefe in tow. To move or not move a core piece may have also been a problematic issue in any struggle between Shanahan and Dubas. I probably find that latter suggestion to be the less likely amongst the two though.

 

[Racer88]

It's quite possible he did and then Shanahan said he wouldn't budge on the contract. Dubas could have walked away but then media and fans would blame him for the "mess" left behind.

I think there is a lot here that we don't know about. Did Shanahan even truly want Dubas back?

Why offer 5 years and then not sit down to hammer out a deal if both sides truly wanted to be together for 5 years?

It doesn't add up.

I’m guessing that Shanny thought they already had a deal worked out in principle but after the crazy Dubas presser and compounded by the revised proposal Shanny pulled the Plug. Executive‘s like Shanny won’t put up with that

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

I don’t understand why you wouldn’t negotiate that in private with Shanahan. Why Dubas didn’t sit down with him and talk about the things he didn’t like on the contract. Not say ok, go to a press conference, bring his family into it, ghost Shanny for a few days and then deliver a new contract offer?

That’s what he should have done. That’s what Shanahan advised him to do and he simply chose not to listen.

 

[Stephen]

If we think about it strategically, blocking the odd trade or signing by the president is just as likely to make the president look good as look bad. Especially trade deadline rental deals that usually have the shelf life of fresh fish when a team doesn't win the big prize.

Like I said, a collaboration is only as healthy as the relationships within. MLSE's hockey department is famously bloated with front office people everywhere, so it stands to reason a lot of these people are paid money to provide ideas, do research to pitch the team, and healthy discussion ensues and I would expect this to be the case at all levels reaching the president. I expect disagreement, heated conversations and all that good stuff.

We've seen it in action in footage from the various documentaries. We always talk about how they "galaxy brain" everything so when the relationships are healthy, this is a strength. So if the subordinate wants more power, of course he will see someone else's sign off as "meddlesome."