Confirmed with Link: Kyle Dubas Not Returning

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Either one is fine if he commits to it. Shanny is playing both sides by not taking ownership for his role in player decisions but still calling shots. If the team fails it’s the GMs fault, if the team succeeds we couldn’t have done it without Shanny.

I understand if you need to go through Shanny and the board to get an approval on a 100 million dollar deal with big bonus money up front, but the Hagel deadline deal is not that.

Do we call it the Hagel deal, or the Knies deal? I'm pretty glad someone stopped that trade, whatever you want to call it.

From what we saw in All or Nothing, Shanahan was at the table on the trade call with Foligno, with thumbs up and down. Seemed anodyne enough and for someone who put Kyle in that role in the first place, I'm sure he would have a sense of what the reporting structure would look like.

Secondly, I thought Shanahan was actually very cagey and political in saying Kyle Dubas passed his hockey test and doing what he did up to the trade deadline. The ultimate reason why he was let go was a hesitancy to come back, lack of firm commitment demonstrated to the public and negotiating in bad faith.
 

“You just saw how ruthless Brendan Shanahan can be.”

That was one view from inside the Maple Leafs house on Friday evening, hours after the team president walked away from his GM of five years, Kyle Dubas, and delivered an oddly detailed, day-by-day, almost hour-by-hour recount of a failed negotiation on a contract extension in a short press conference.

Less than a week after the Leafs were eliminated by the Florida Panthers in the NHL playoffs, the front office has effectively been pulled apart, first with the Dubas decision and then with the news that all three Marlies coaches were fired and special assistant to the GM Jason Spezza had resigned.

It’s also clear that more dismissals and resignations are coming in the near future.

Perhaps a lot of them.

As reported previously in the aftermath of the Leafs elimination, Shanahan and Dubas had been at odds for a while. On Friday, more details emerged on that front. Multiple sources close to the team said that Shanahan had blocked transactions that Dubas wanted to make at key points in the past several seasons, creating frustration in parts of the management group. Shanahan had also at times dictated certain moves he wanted made that Dubas didn’t agree with.

The president, as per his place in the hierarchy, typically won out in those battles. And, in some cases, the moves that weren’t made could have improved the Leafs’ ability to advance further in the playoffs.


Some of those disagreements likely contributed to the disarray Monday, when Dubas delivered an emotionally charged, unusual season-ending press conference during which he declined to commit to coming back as GM.

.........

The friction in the Leafs front office and the relationship between the two men was still a factor, however, and Dubas’ desire for greater autonomy from Shanahan is believed to have been one of the untold reasons for how things ultimately played out.

Now those remaining in the organization are taking sides. Some on the Dubas side are preparing, like Spezza, to leave. Others are hopeful of moving up in the new world order.


It is, in short, a bit of a mess.

Others connected to the team, however, are simply disappointed that what had been a successful partnership between Shanahan and Dubas for nine years fell apart so quickly and so publicly.

Everyone knew all was not well. But few expected it to implode like this, right before the finish line.

“Really tough on everyone,” said one team source. “Not feeling great about the whole thing today. It should have ended very differently.”

It should have ended, they say, with Dubas remaining the Leafs GM.

When Mirtle is trying to spin he is getting a lot help from Dubas. He has been Dubas’s Minister of Propaganda for quite sometime.
 
It is, he hasn't done anything that makes me believe he had to be kept

Playoff results blow and we're about to perform major surgery on the core he believed in and massively overpaid

We also burned a ton of draft capital this TDL so our asset base isn't exactly strong

All in all I think he's been pretty bloody average

The one thing as I said earlier is that whoever takes over has no long-term issues on the roster. The only contract issue they have is the 1 year of Matt Murray to likely pawn off in some way. LTIR Muzzin could also be something they look at trading away but that's really not a priority. So whoever takes over doesn't have to worry about fixing a cap issue like most GMs have to do when they take over a team.

They obviously have a roster issue to fix whatever is going on and finding a coach that can push them into more than just being good in the regular season.
 
8 days ago, Kyle Dubas' Leafs were mired in disaster, facing an uncertain future post second round disaster with questions to be asked, a core to be dismantled and now that he's gone, he was our last hope. Go figure.

I don't think he's our last hope but not being prepared and saying I'll just wing it in a critical time is just foolish.

In a 5 week period which can have a trickle-down effect probably for a decade.

  1. Move forward with a team/make trades before NMC/NTC kicks in
  2. Analyze or Gain assets to gather with the above pieces via trade.
  3. Risk/Asset Management of who are available to use for the Draft which is said to be one of the deepest in years.
  4. Free-Agency Period is around the corner, and figuring out what the core and future are with the infusion of things.
If they do the right things and we get the cup I won't give a rat's ass, so I am hoping that is what happens. However, taking a decision like this without any contingency plan especially during this time seems rather an emotional decision by Shanny than a rational/logical one tbh. Hate on Dubas all you want but he left it in a good spot for the next guy but still it needs to be done fast to make sure we don't miss a beat.
 
Do we call it the Hagel deal, or the Knies deal? I'm pretty glad someone stopped that trade, whatever you want to call it.

Secondly, I thought Shanahan was actually very cagey and political in saying Kyle Dubas passed his hockey test and doing what he did up to the trade deadline. The ultimate reason why he was let go was a hesitancy to come back, lack of firm commitment demonstrated to the public and negotiating in bad faith.

So he was willing to extend a guy he’s not aligned with on team building for 5 years and it took a bad negotiation to stop that? The only impression his press conference gave was that he wanted Kyle back but couldn’t get board approval until after the deadline and playoffs.

It’s cool if you think the roster construction was bad but it doesn’t make sense to absolve the final decision maker, it’s just as much his flawed team as anyone else’s. The Knies/Hagel deal wouldn’t have been the most impactful or worst trade we’ve made, where’s the accountability in not stopping the other ones? Once you break the seal you can’t go back to being an inactive figurehead when it’s convenient.
 
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I don't think he's our last hope but not being prepared and saying I'll just wing it in a critical time is just foolish.

In a 5 week period which can have a trickle-down effect probably for a decade.

  1. Move forward with a team/make trades before NMC/NTC kicks in
  2. Analyze or Gain assets to gather with the above pieces via trade.
  3. Risk/Asset Management of who are available to use for the Draft which is said to be one of the deepest in years.
  4. Free-Agency Period is around the corner, and figuring out what the core and future are with the infusion of things.
If they do the right things and we get the cup I won't give a rat's ass, so I am hoping that is what happens. However, taking a decision like this without any contingency plan especially during this time seems rather an emotional decision by Shanny than a rational/logical one tbh. Hate on Dubas all you want but he left it in a good spot for the next guy but still it needs to be done fast to make sure we don't miss a beat.

franchise taken back years just on a whim. shouldn't ownership be concerned about shanahan's fitness for his role?
 
Whether that decision making process was Dubas with the final say and Shanahan with the perfunctory rubber stamp, or Dubas having to go see Shanahan for final approval, who knows?
I certainly hope it wasn't the latter, because that's how we ended up with a decade of mediocrity when JFJ was "GM" but had to get approval from the pension fund to make any moves... Shanny said it wouldn't happen under him.
 
I blame Shanahan for this shitshow we find ourselves in. Scrambling to find a GM when two of our most important players can sign extensions. It’s amateur hour and when this franchise should be above it.

If Dubas has failed so bad why did Shanahan want to bring him back? Dubas’ Leafs haven’t lived up to expectations, doesn’t mean this team isn’t in a good spot or he’s done an overall awful job. He should’ve been fired long ago if it was all about results. Shanahan firing him because of a faux pas in negotiations is asinine after he felt like Dubas did a good enough job to warrant an extension. It reeks of pettiness and as far as I’m concerned there’s more to the story.

Shanahan better be damn sure about who he’s hiring. We’re a couple of bad trades and key free agents leaving away from being a non-contender and being mired in mediocrity.

You claimed that Shanahan was micromanaging and Dubas shouldn't have to deal with it. Then i said if it was so bad then why did dubas proclaim he would work only for the leafs and no where else?

Why in the hell did dubas make a big deal and then all of a sudden sent a new financial package to continue being a gm?

its not shanahan, dubas screwed dubas.

To each their own but i had zero faith in dubas doing a good job negotiating a contract. I actually have more faith now that we will either re-sign matthews/nylander at decent cap hits and if not they are not playing for the leafs and we get something for them and don't get screwed like isles did with tavares.

Shanahan along with Dubas should have been canned long ago IMO; b/c I hated what both of them did to the Leafs. It was absolutely garbage that shanahan was looking to bring dubas back. I am actually grateful that there hockey gods intervened and a cosmic hand made sure leafs do not commit another blunder.

One thing I can guarantee you that with dubas we would not have made any headway towards winning the cup. With this change now we will either make the right moves to win the cup within the next 3-5 years or we will just rebuild again to hopefully set up the franchise in a position to win the cup within 10-12 years.

I am more comfortable today than if he had re-signed Dubas. I see possibilities for the future now that didn't exist as long as Dubas was running this team
 
franchise taken back years just on a whim. shouldn't ownership be concerned about shanahan's fitness for his role?
I dunno tbh and I hope it doesn't come to that at all. I just find it astounding Shanny in this place is getting way too much lee-way, so I hope he has a freaking bunny up his ass to figure out some magic soon. The MLSE board must have decent trust in him, I know Tannebaum probably fond of Shanny likely due to the Liewicke choosing him. That can be a factor as well but I can't imagine around 60% of the board is happy about it either, profits are primary but Maple Leafs is always a very very crucial brand for MLSE I don't think they'll be too happy if they go down very quickly.

Who knows? Maybe he'll surprise us and be like LOOK DOUG ARMSTRONG LEFT ST. LOUIS FOR US! WE BOUGHT HIS EXTENSION :laugh: One can hope.
 
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IMO, here are the returns I would want for any of the big 3 traded.

Matthews - Top 10 pick, middle six NHLer with some potential, future 1st

Marner - Tkachuk template, but with younger players. Balanced with less status/NHL success than Huberdeau/Weegar. E.g. Farabee/Provorov, Lafreniere/Miller

Nylander - Fiala template. Mid 1st and legit prospect (Faber stood out just as much as Knies but for different reasons whenever I watched them).
 
No idea if he would have.. but I do know he jokingly said he wont be taking a hometown discount again after winning the cup. Landeskog was frustrated with the contract negotiations and told the media (without his agent) he just wants to sign in colorado and doesnt care if its less money than other teams. Imo those were two star players more concerned about winning than money
MacK could have a 100% gotten more money if he went to free agency and is on record saying he only took as much as he did to keep the Players' Association happy. Only took a 100K more aka the bare minimum to keep them happy.

Leaf stars would never lol.
 
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Do we call it the Hagel deal, or the Knies deal? I'm pretty glad someone stopped that trade, whatever you want to call it.

From what we saw in All or Nothing, Shanahan was at the table on the trade call with Foligno, with thumbs up and down. Seemed anodyne enough and for someone who put Kyle in that role in the first place, I'm sure he would have a sense of what the reporting structure would look like.

Secondly, I thought Shanahan was actually very cagey and political in saying Kyle Dubas passed his hockey test and doing what he did up to the trade deadline. The ultimate reason why he was let go was a hesitancy to come back, lack of firm commitment demonstrated to the public and negotiating in bad faith.

The funny thing about all this discussion is that Shanny almost is certainly looking for a Dubas-like replacement. Someone who will allow Shanny to intervene in hockey decisions when he see fit in ect.
 
As I always say... It aint over until the fat lady sings, I hope that is the case for the leafs but I'll believe it when I see it.

Heres hoping it'll be a damn good GM, I am still hoping it's somehow lucky Doug Armstrong.

There is always one team that wins the cup every year and all other teams are disappointed for either not making the playoffs or not winning the cup.

The goal is to see if the franchise is making steady progress which under dubas had not been the case. On the contrary I'd argue that under dubas we've went back while emptying the cupboards (only 4 picks this draft, and 2025 1st rounder traded away also btw); while nothing much to show. Not to mention the amount of picks dubas had thrown away for the third team to come in to help out with cap retention in the trade because of the cap structure dubas himself created.

There no team in the entire league that has 3 10+ AAV team, Leafs are the only team if am not mistaken. And that AAV doesn't even come with term so that you get more kicks at the can since the cap is tied for longer with the players so eventually you will get some cap flexibility..

There not going to be any GM who will come in and make it worse than Dubas had already done.

We are not only going to be fine, IMO we are going to be better for it!
 
So he was willing to extend a guy he’s not aligned with on team building for 5 years and it took a bad negotiation to stop that? The only impression his press conference gave was that he wanted Kyle back but couldn’t get board approval until after the deadline and playoffs.

It’s cool if you think the roster construction was bad but it doesn’t make sense to absolve the final decision maker, it’s just as much his flawed team as anyone else’s. The Knies/Hagel deal wouldn’t have been the most impactful or worst trade we’ve made, where’s the accountability in not stopping the other ones? Once you break the seal you can’t go back to being an inactive figurehead when it’s convenient.

I'm not a Kyle Dubas fan in the least but I supported Kyle coming back after the deadline trades. Seemed like his moves were going in the direction I would have wanted to go, so I can see where Shanahan's comments came from. I thought the core let Dubas down in the Florida series and he deserved betteer from them. So I can see where Shanahan was at when he had the contract offer. So we can set aside hockey reasons for this crisis.

For me, I can also see the powerplay Kyle was lining up in appealing to the mob through the media about maybe not coming back, but actually making massive demands for money and power once that ground work had been laid for public consumption. I'm not Shanahan, so I'm not personally offended by a board room maneuver as Shanahan would have been. But I did see a conflict of interest in what he said about the pressure of being a Leaf, only to have to go rep the Leafs once re-signed. So I think you can make the argument that Shanahan had to outmaneuver Kyle because he was making a play for his position, but also to protect the brand. So these are completely non hockey performance reasons.
 
If you had a healthy, collaborative work environment between a senior executive and a junior executive, it's not unreasonable for the senior executive to look at a potential decision brought to the table, provide input and say, let's not proceed.

It becomes meddlesome when the junior in the relationship feels they should have more control on decision making, like the authority of the senior is unwarranted. That implies a dissatisfaction with the reporting hierarchy, which begs the question. If the junior had the sign off power of the senior, why is there a senior executive to begin with?

And hence, a power struggle ensues.
Makes sense. playfailure after playoff failure, here’s your extension. come after my cushy 6 mil a year job, here’s the door!
 
Yes he blocked dubas from making 15 trades at the deadline according to media leaks coming from Dubas

I'm sure he begged him to pick up Matt Murray as well

didn't you know shanahan threatened dubas to protect Holl in the expansion draft, and told keefe to play matthews-marner together eventhough they sucked together and forced kerfoot in the line up.

shanahan is the one to blame for everything

:sarcasm:
 
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The funny thing about all this discussion is that Shanny almost is certainly looking for a Dubas-like replacement. Someone who will allow Shanny to intervene in hockey decisions when he see fit in ect.

I don't see a problem with it, as long as the chain of command and decision making process is outlined in the job search and everyone knows what the ground rules are. Maybe if it's a greenhorn candidate, the GM would have to work by committee with presidential sign off, working with the money guy and the amateur and pro directors. Maybe if it's Doug Armstrong the industry veteran he gets full autonomy. Who knows? Hell, maybe Shanahan wants to run as president with a committee of AGM's?

I also did mention that if it turns out they hire a star GM like Doug Armstrong and he starts pressing all the right buttons and things start moving ahead in a good way, that will present some interesting political dynamics for Brendan Shanahan.
 
The funny thing about all this discussion is that Shanny almost is certainly looking for a Dubas-like replacement. Someone who will allow Shanny to intervene in hockey decisions when he see fit in ect.
Reading between the lines...Feels like the meddling got to be too much and if he wasn't really traveling around with the group as much didn't exactly sit well with many I'd imagine either.

Magic Johnson had to step down as the president of the Lakers because a lot of talk behind his back was the GM was there but he wasn't. When it came to decisions Magic would want to be involved, being someone who is more old school and people talking around him and not to him, didn't take it too well and said screw it I am out, backstabbing people. Was a big deal in the NBA, GM took a shit ton of heat, and a year or two later the Lakers won it all.

It'll definitely be fascinating what happens upcoming, hopefully it'll be the reverse of the lakers for us, president stays and we get the cup :laugh:
 
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I'm not a Kyle Dubas fan in the least but I supported Kyle coming back after the deadline trades. Seemed like his moves were going in the direction I would have wanted to go, so I can see where Shanahan's comments came from. I thought the core let Dubas down in the Florida series and he deserved betteer from them. So I can see where Shanahan was at when he had the contract offer. So we can set aside hockey reasons for this crisis.

For me, I can also see the powerplay Kyle was lining up in appealing to the mob through the media about maybe not coming back, but actually making massive demands for money and power once that ground work had been laid for public consumption. I'm not Shanahan, so I'm not personally offended by a board room maneuver as Shanahan would have been. But I did see a conflict of interest in what he said about the pressure of being a Leaf, only to have to go rep the Leafs once re-signed. So I think you can make the argument that Shanahan had to outmaneuver Kyle because he was making a play for his position, but also to protect the brand. So these are completely non hockey performance reasons.

I didn’t like Dubas’ move but I get how creating that pressure was a viable Hail Mary. For my money I think the sticking point is autonomy more than the money involved.

I guess the question it boils down to is who brings more to the table as president between the two of them. Other than hierarchy, what’s the argument for Shanahan’s vision and ability to implement it vs Dubas?

I’ve mentioned before but my biggest gripe with Dubas is that at the same time as doubling down on the core over and over, he didn’t double down on the speed, intensity, and skill idea he sold us on at the beginning. I thought it was him and Keefe bending the knee to media pressure but now I’m not really sure where the push is from.

Speed and intensity down the lineup works when the entire team is built around it, Colorado made that clear. We went from a 9/10 speed and 3/10 physical team to a 6/10 speed and 6/10 physical team, got rid of our competitive advantage, and doubled down on the leftovers of the speed plan by surrounding them with the exact opposite players. I’m fine with the pivot to a big defensive team but you have to retool the core and commit to it then, half assing both approaches is what killed us. Even Keefe’s coaching made a lot of compromises just because of the Columbus series. Go back and watch one of the first few games after Babcock, we were so much more fluid and dynamic in all three zones.

If the changes since then are Shanny’s influence then he either shouldn’t have meddled or he should have been more aggressive and forced trades for core pieces that could play the new game he wanted for a coach who knew how to play it.
 
I didn't say there was an unlimited amount of cap space... but there are no Marleau level contracts to deal with. There are no 5+ year overpaid players like Huberdeau anchoring the cap. Murray is tradeable but will take a bit of work to get done. They can create even more cap space if and when they decide to trade a top player as everyone expects.

The D does not need to be revamped.
Luke Schenn on your top pair isn't exactly ideal. How many other top contenders have a 1M defender with that much responsibility? He gets paid that much for a reason this late in his career.

Also, Gio and Timothy were terrible in the playoffs. The D 100% needs to be revamped.
 
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Luke Schenn on your top pair isn't exactly ideal. How many other top contenders have a 1M defender with that much responsibility? He gets paid that much for a reason this late in his career.

Also, Gio and Timothy were terrible in the playoffs. The D 100% needs to be revamped.

It was mostly just pairings as Rielly and Schenn did well together and likely will be kept together if Schenn is brought back. McCabe and Brodie would presumably play the harder minutes and do well.

The idea would be to sign/trade for a defenseman though and push Giordano to 7th D with load management.

Revamping isn't necessary at all but I do think they could probably also go a step further and trade Brodie while he has value. Go younger and a different route.
 
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