Kyle Dubas - - Horrible Asset Mismanagement

[FraumBallard]

Breaking: Zach Hyman is the only player in the league heading to UFA this year.

No he is not.
He is however a very important player who we cannot sign due to Wonder Boy not having a clue how to be a real gm.

 

[shortfuze]

Better than nothing.
Really simple.

its not really. id rather have nothing than taking peanuts from edmonton to help them with their cap.

 

[Bomber0104]

its not really. id rather have nothing than taking peanuts from edmonton to help them with their cap.

Yeah, cut your nose to spite your face.

That's real mature.

 

[shortfuze]

Yeah, cut your nose to spite your face.

That's real mature.

not at all. why help another team if all they are going to throw you is peanuts? its a 6th round pick, if it was a 3rd or 4th i could understand. cap space is valuable.

 

[Bomber0104]

not at all. why help another team if all they are going to throw you is peanuts? its a 6th round pick, if it was a 3rd or 4th i could understand. cap space is valuable.

What would be the benefit to Toronto saying no to a 6th and not giving Edmonton the extra year of the contract?

Does "screwing" Edmonton out of $500k of cap-savings actually help Toronto in any real way, let alone more than the value of a late-round pick?

Seems petty and I doubt Edmonton cares all that much either way.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I thought the Dubites love Wonder Boy and his 7th round picks.

We could draft another Miettinen who everyone loves. But no, we'll show Edmonton we're not to be messed with. Haha

 

[DuklaNation]

 

[All Mod Cons]

What would be the benefit to Toronto saying no to a 6th and not giving Edmonton the extra year of the contract?

Does "screwing" Edmonton out of $500k of cap-savings actually help Toronto in any real way, let alone more than the value of a late-round pick?

Seems petty and I doubt Edmonton cares all that much either way.

Especially when so many didn't want to sign him because he's past it and his contract will be an albatross.

 

[shortfuze]

What would be the benefit to Toronto saying no to a 6th and not giving Edmonton the extra year of the contract?

Does "screwing" Edmonton out of $500k of cap-savings actually help Toronto in any real way, let alone more than the value of a late-round pick?

Seems petty and I doubt Edmonton cares all that much either way.

it could definitely help toronto out just like it could help other teams if edmonton is negotiating with a player against them. i dont understand the people on this board. bitching and complaining because toronto doesnt have cap space and that dubas screwed them over but are ready to help out edmonton just to gain a 6th round pick. cap space is valuable.

 

[Bomber0104]

it could definitely help toronto out just like it could help other teams if edmonton is negotiating with a player against them. i dont understand the people on this board. bitching and complaining because toronto doesnt have cap space and that dubas screwed them over but are ready to help out edmonton just to gain a 6th round pick. cap space is valuable.

So again...

What benefit is derived by the Leafs saying no to Edmonton, getting zero draft picks and driving up Hyman's cap-hit by 500k?

How does this help us competitively?

 

[Racer88]

This is one of the few things that I support Dubas on.
Don’t do anything to help the opposition unless they are making it worthwhile

 

[ACC1224]

It’s amusing how petulant the Dubas Fan Boi club is in support of their hero.

It defies logic to choose ZERO instead of a 6th round pick. That $400k is equivalent to 0.49% of the salary cap. Do you realize how inconsequential that is?

Late round draft picks are valuable trade chips at the deadline.

Dubas gave up a 6th for Riley Trash and a 5th for Ben Hutton this year.

I'm betting the list of things you don't understand is quite long.

 

[shortfuze]

So again...

What benefit is derived by the Leafs saying no to Edmonton, getting zero draft picks and driving up Hyman's cap-hit by 500k?

How does this help us competitively?

go back and read it again.

 

[LeafsFan89]

The time to play "hard negotiator" was when negotiating with Nylander, Matthews, and Marner. Not when you literally gain a pick for a player that is not resigning with your team in 1 week.

 

[CDN24]

It'sa 6th round pick buddy. besides if we were to do there there's a chance Hyman can sign cheaper than when he hits the market. for a 6th...... a 6th..... who gives a shit buddy. it's a crap shoot. might as well play darts in the dark

You may be playing darts in the dark, but the dartboard is still there - good players are almost always available in 6th round. They may take a bit longer to develop but they are there. With 32 teams the 6th round is from pick 161 to 192. looking at 20 years of drafts 1996 to 2015 this is who was available in those slots. I selected someone from every year but 2012 slim pickings that year and 2 from 98 (Markov and Datsyuk)
Pavel Kubina. Shawn Thornton Andre Markov, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Hendrik Lundqvist, Jussi Jokinen, Ian White, Joe Pavalski, Roman Polok,, Anton Stralman, Mathieu Perrault, Partric Maroon, Jason Demers, Erik Haula, Mark Stone, Ondrej Palat, Mackenzie Weegar, Kevin Leblanc, Andrew Magiapane.
So a servicable player is available in the 6th round and in some years legit 1st liners top pair D or no. 1 goalies are.
You could argue with 32 teams picking, that you have a one in 32 shot of finding him but by the same measure costing Edm 500K cap space doesn't help you unless you can cost all 30 other teams 500K too.
So for an analytics guy like Dubas, in forgoing a 6th rounder he is forgoing a 1/30 shot at someone like one of the above (note some years have several similar players but assume its only one) i.e make the move 30 times and the expected value is a player like one of the above. The cap space savings is also 1/30 of 500K or make the move with each team 30 times and you have a 500K cap advantage. so whether we are talking 1/30 of the player vs 1/30th of 500K or player vs 500K of cap space the comparison is the same.

If you would forgo the average player of that list to save 500K of Cap space then Dubas move makes sense otherwise it does not. I would argue it does not and its worse because with could scouting you can improve the pick odds plus most years there are more than 1 player available. In addition to Markov and Datysuk 98 had Chris Neil, Michael Ryder, Ales Kotalik.

A 6th rounder has value if nothing else to be used in a future trade.

 

[ACC1224]

The time to play "hard negotiator" was when negotiating with Nylander, Matthews, and Marner. Not when you literally gain a pick for a player that is not resigning with your team in 1 week.

Sure but you don't get do overs.
If he takes a stance now the next time he says 'no we want this....' it will have a little weight to it because he stood his ground this time.

 

[7even]

I thought the Dubites love Wonder Boy and his 7th round picks.

Instead of faceless shadowy fanfactions, what is it that you think? Is that not more important?

 

[Donnie740]

This is one of the few things that I support Dubas on.
Don’t do anything to help the opposition unless they are making it worthwhile

What’s more worthwhile to the Leafs - - a 6th round pick or ZERO?

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I agree to a certain extent. We do complain about everything. But Dubas for 4 years in a row has let pending UFA's walk for nothing. Just move them for Christ Sake. I never understood why we didnt trade Bozak and JVR for assets, we let Tyson Barrie walk for nothing, we let Hyman walk for nothing and in every circumstance Dubas knew that we were not resigning them, it's just horrific.

while I do agree in a sense but I let those side given the direction of our team. we basically used our own players as rentals trying to win, unfortunately we kept losing though.
Would have been nice to gain assets for our departing players but if we didn't view our selves as contenders and closer to a bubble team I think u would have seen atleast a couple of them moved for future assets

 

[Arthur Morgan]

What’s more valuable to have - - a 6th round pick or ZERO?

umm well since it would have saved Edmonton close to 500k or more. I'd go with zero. a 6th isn't that hard to acquire and doesn't hold enough value to really care.
you do realize majority of the time a 6th round pick should take between 4-5 years to become NHL ready IF they ever become NHL ready.
a 6th is nothing to kick up a fuss about.
I 100% would rather not get the 6th rounder and lose Hyman for free if it means we help Edmonton save money.

 

[Donnie740]

Draft picks are ALWAYS valuable assets regardless of whatever round they are.

Look at the deadline deals this year:


Montreal got Erik Gustafsson for a 7th round pick.
Islanders got Braydon Coburn for a 7th round pick.
Jets got Jordie Benn for a 6th round pick.
Leafs got Riley Trash for a 6th round pick.

 

[colchar]

When has he caved?

 

[Arthur Morgan]

You may be playing darts in the dark, but the dartboard is still there - good players are almost always available in 6th round. They may take a bit longer to develop but they are there. With 32 teams the 6th round is from pick 161 to 192. looking at 20 years of drafts 1996 to 2015 this is who was available in those slots. I selected someone from every year but 2012 slim pickings that year and 2 from 98 (Markov and Datsyuk)
Pavel Kubina. Shawn Thornton Andre Markov, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Hendrik Lundqvist, Jussi Jokinen, Ian White, Joe Pavalski, Roman Polok,, Anton Stralman, Mathieu Perrault, Partric Maroon, Jason Demers, Erik Haula, Mark Stone, Ondrej Palat, Mackenzie Weegar, Kevin Leblanc, Andrew Magiapane.
So a servicable player is available in the 6th round and in some years legit 1st liners top pair D or no. 1 goalies are.
You could argue with 32 teams picking, that you have a one in 32 shot of finding him but by the same measure costing Edm 500K cap space doesn't help you unless you can cost all 30 other teams 500K too.
So for an analytics guy like Dubas, in forgoing a 6th rounder he is forgoing a 1/30 shot at someone like one of the above (note some years have several similar players but assume its only one) i.e make the move 30 times and the expected value is a player like one of the above. The cap space savings is also 1/30 of 500K or make the move with each team 30 times and you have a 500K cap advantage. so whether we are talking 1/30 of the player vs 1/30th of 500K or player vs 500K of cap space the comparison is the same.

If you would forgo the average player of that list to save 500K of Cap space then Dubas move makes sense otherwise it does not. I would argue it does not and its worse because with could scouting you can improve the pick odds plus most years there are more than 1 player available. In addition to Markov and Datysuk 98 had Chris Neil, Michael Ryder, Ales Kotalik.

A 6th rounder has value if nothing else to be used in a future trade.

Why should we take less than what we figure a sign and trade is worth?
A 6th rounder doesnt hold any value and are extremely easy to acquire.

If Edmonton wants to save a little cap on Hyman they can offer a better pic than a measly 6th or they can sign Hyman to a more expensive contract.

Let's not make Edmonton's life easier for pocket lint

 

[Donnie740]

umm well since it would have saved Edmonton close to 500k or more. I'd go with zero. a 6th isn't that hard to acquire and doesn't hold enough value to really care.
you do realize majority of the time a 6th round pick should take between 4-5 years to become NHL ready IF they ever become NHL ready.
a 6th is nothing to kick up a fuss about.
I 100% would rather not get the 6th rounder and lose Hyman for free if it means we help Edmonton save money.

Based on your ridiculous “logic” no team should ever make a trade because it might help out the opposition.

 

[colchar]

then another crappy team in Montreal, who wouldn’t have made the playoffs had there been no COVID and regular division.

You mean the 'crappy' team that made it to the finals?