Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[Menzinger]

We could have had more of this size and grit in the supporting cast the whole time without ramping up to this moment. Dubas’ first offseason we basically purged out Polak, Komarov and Martin because it wasn’t the brand of hockey he wanted to play. Two of those guys went on to be fairly decent contributors to the Islanders playoff teams of this era.

I am supportive of his evolution as a GM to get to this level at the end of 2022-23. I don’t support the idea that his inheritance from Lou or market forces held him back from this brand over the years. He learned from his own experiences and adjusted the ratio.

I get your wider point but also worth noting that Martin was banished to the press box by Babcock during the season and Babcock also made Leo a healthy scratch in game 7 of the playoffs against the Bruins once the younger, smaller and skilled Andreas Johnsson was ready to play.

While it's also fair to say Dubas' didn't go out and replace them with similar players in the offseason I think the wider point is fair that he wasn't the ONLY influence on how the roster was shaped

 

[rocketman588]

32 Thoughts: Why Brad Treliving and the Flames agreed to 'part ways'

The Calgary Flames are on the search for a new GM as they and Brad Treliving mutually agreed to part. So why did it happen now, and what will be the path from here? That and more in this week's thoughts.

www.sportsnet.ca

5. Okay, Kyle Dubas. In the aftermath of the regular season, just talking to other teams, it’s amazing how they perceive what’s happening in Toronto. They find it hard to believe he’s leaving. They think all these rumours are just various stakeholders sabre-rattling and negotiating through the media. “He’s got the best winning percentage (among GMs post-expansion) in franchise history,” one executive laughed. “He’s not going anywhere.” (Yes, yes, we all know and recognize the playoff issue.)

Remember the ownership structure in Toronto: Rogers (37.5 per cent), Bell (37.5 per cent) and Larry Tanenbaum (25 per cent). I do believe, at one point in relatively recent history, a contract extension for Dubas was proposed, only to be blocked because there wasn’t enough ownership support. That’s where Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is right now.

I’ve mentioned this before, but firing Mike Babcock with $25M remaining on his contract changed the organizational dynamic for extending people. It affected the Masai Ujiri negotiations, now Dubas’s (plus others we don’t see publicly) and strained relationships across the organization. If Dubas indeed comes available, there will be plenty of interest. We’ll see if everyone comes to their senses.

I assume mlse thought babs would get another job and be off the hook. Then Dubas shoveled dirt on his career through media leaks

Both sides in this need to stop however

We absolutely DO NOT need a public media blood feud before the playoffs

 

[Stephen]

I get your wider point but also worth noting that Martin was banished to the press box by Babcock during the season and Babcock also made Leo a healthy scratch in game 7 of the playoffs against the Bruins once the younger, smaller and skilled Andreas Johnsson was ready to play.

While it's also fair to say Dubas' didn't go out and replace them with similar players in the offseason I think the wider point is fair that he wasn't the ONLY influence on how the roster was shaped

I think Dubas has made a lot of positive moves to get the Leafs to a good spot at the starting block of the 2022-23 playoffs and deserves credit for putting his team in a good position to succeed with a lot of tools to play the kind of series they've seen time and again.

Now that he's made a number of course adjustment that I really support and feel comfort in, I don't see the value in going back to earlier miscalculations and rationalize why. Same thing applies for the players. If Matthews or Marner wins a Conn Smythe this year, I don't see the need to go back to earlier series and make apologies for them when they weren't dominant playoff performers. You know what I mean?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Now that he's made a number of course adjustment that I really support and feel comfort in, I don't see the value in going back to earlier miscalculations and rationalize why.

The point is he hasn't done all of these big course adjustments that you keep claiming. This deadline followed the same pattern of what he's done since coming on as GM. The main difference this year is just that our situation and the league situation allowed us to add more of those pieces in one deadline than we have before.
If you're happy with what we have, and you don't see the value in going back to the past, then I don't know why you're bringing it up and attempting to rewrite it.

 

[ACC1224]

I think Dubas has made a lot of positive moves to get the Leafs to a good spot at the starting block of the 2022-23 playoffs and deserves credit for putting his team in a good position to succeed with a lot of tools to play the kind of series they've seen time and again.

Now that he's made a number of course adjustment that I really support and feel comfort in, I don't see the value in going back to earlier miscalculations and rationalize why. Same thing applies for the players. If Matthews or Marner wins a Conn Smythe this year, I don't see the need to go back to earlier series and make apologies for them when they weren't dominant playoff performers. You know what I mean?

Yep, looks like he may have finally figured it out.
Now they have to put up.

 

[notbias]

32 Thoughts: Why Brad Treliving and the Flames agreed to 'part ways'

The Calgary Flames are on the search for a new GM as they and Brad Treliving mutually agreed to part. So why did it happen now, and what will be the path from here? That and more in this week's thoughts.

www.sportsnet.ca

5. Okay, Kyle Dubas. In the aftermath of the regular season, just talking to other teams, it’s amazing how they perceive what’s happening in Toronto. They find it hard to believe he’s leaving. They think all these rumours are just various stakeholders sabre-rattling and negotiating through the media. “He’s got the best winning percentage (among GMs post-expansion) in franchise history,” one executive laughed. “He’s not going anywhere.” (Yes, yes, we all know and recognize the playoff issue.)

Remember the ownership structure in Toronto: Rogers (37.5 per cent), Bell (37.5 per cent) and Larry Tanenbaum (25 per cent). I do believe, at one point in relatively recent history, a contract extension for Dubas was proposed, only to be blocked because there wasn’t enough ownership support. That’s where Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is right now.

I’ve mentioned this before, but firing Mike Babcock with $25M remaining on his contract changed the organizational dynamic for extending people. It affected the Masai Ujiri negotiations, now Dubas’s (plus others we don’t see publicly) and strained relationships across the organization. If Dubas indeed comes available, there will be plenty of interest. We’ll see if everyone comes to their senses.

This is impossible... people with no insider information and very little common sense have said Dubas sucks and won't get hired.

 

[DarkKnight]

I bring Dubas back, I feel he did what he needed to do this season for the group. It’s almost universally accepted we had the best “deadline”, he reshaped the team and finally found a balance to go with the skill. Whether we succeed now is on the players, to be fair, he did his part imo.

 

[ACC1224]

This is impossible... people with no insider information and very little common sense have said Dubas sucks and won't get hired.

Those voices in your head aren't actually real.

 

[Mess]

I bring Dubas back, I feel he did what he needed to do this season for the group. It’s almost universally accepted we had the best “deadline”, he reshaped the team and finally found a balance to go with the skill. Whether we succeed now is on the players, to be fair, he did his part imo.

What if signing 3 players to $11 mil each and having 3 of the top 7 highest contracts in the NHL is the reason for Leafs constant downfall?

With such a top heavy all forward expenditure, its hard no matter how many deck chairs you move around to ice a Cup competitive team, so while Dubas changed the style of play by the additions that still doesn't address the elephant in the room. IMO

True, while Matthews, Marner and Tavares will need to do their part and do it consistently and produce at high levels at key moments, but this might still be poor cap management which is all on Dubas.

The opposition really only has to focus on shutting down shutting down the core 4 forwards as that is 1/2 the teams cap and then let their better balanced teams do the rest by their depth at all positions outperforming the Leafs rest of roster. You're only as strong as your weakest link.

 

[DarkKnight]

What if signing 3 players to $11 mil each and having 3 of the top 7 highest contracts in the NHL is the reason for Leafs constant downfall?

With such a top heavy all forward expenditure, its hard no matter how many deck chairs you move around to ice a Cup competitive team, so while Dubas changed the style of play by the additions that still doesn't address the elephant in the room. IMO

True, while Matthews, Marner and Tavares will need to do their part and do it consistently and produce at high levels at key moments, but this might still be poor cap management which is all on Dubas.

The opposition really only has to focus on shutting down shutting down the core 4 forwards as that is 1/2 the teams cap and then let their better balanced teams do the rest by their depth at all positions outperforming the Leafs rest of roster. You're only as strong as your weakest link.

Can’t undo the past now, he’s finally figuring it out it seems.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Lock him up, 8x8. Should've been done in the offseason.

 

[ACC1224]

Lock him up, 8x8. Should've been done in the offseason.

For the GM?

 

[Dekes For Days]

What if signing 3 players to $11 mil each and having 3 of the top 7 highest contracts in the NHL is the reason for Leafs constant downfall?

Having 3 top tier players worth top tier money is not why we've lost.

The opposition really only has to focus on shutting down shutting down the core 4 forwards as that is 1/2 the teams cap and then let their better balanced teams do the rest by their depth at all positions outperforming the Leafs rest of roster.

You can't just act like the 4 best players on one team don't exist, and the Leafs are also one of the most balanced and deepest teams at all positions.

 

[613Leafer]

Can’t undo the past now, he’s finally figuring it out now it seems.

That's how I feel.

I think it's 100% a valid criticism that Dubas took too long to realize NHL playoffs are, and always have been, played and reffed differently. You need guys who can drive the net, cycle the puck, protect the front of the net, break up the other teams cycle, and generally wear down the opposition over a 7 game series.

But that criticism is gone - he's learned from his mistakes, and obviously made significant efforts to make this into more or a "playoff" team, with ROR, McCabe, Lafferty, Acciari, Schenn, etc all fitting that mold.

For the big contracts, I think we have to assume he's learned his lesson as well.

Personally, if we lose again, I would be much more inclined to make a big change to the core, and keep Dubas, than move Dubas, and keep the core. At some point, the players simply need to play to their potential and go on a playoff run. If there's some psychological barrier to doing so at this point, change the players, not the GM. New GM could easily be the next Nonis, Burke, JFJ, etc.

 

[Mess]

Can’t undo the past now, he’s finally figuring it out now it seems.

Respectfully, I don't think he has figured anything out, unless he can prove that his "We can and we will" cap heavy management usage can also produce successful playoff results.

If the problem for Leafs constant failure is having toooo much cap $$ into toooo few players then he hasn't figured anything out, because those are the constants each year and a revolving door of players around of different sizes, styles or experience doesn't address it, only tries to mask it. IMO

Only a long sustained playoff run now will disprove that theory, and another early exit only solidify it more.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I bring Dubas back, I feel he did what he needed to do this season for the group. It’s almost universally accepted we had the best “deadline”, he reshaped the team and finally found a balance to go with the skill. Whether we succeed now is on the players, to be fair, he did his part imo.

This. I mean I get that it's his team so if they fail, he's one of the people to blame but still ... his job is done at this point so objectively it makes a lot of sense to judge him now. I like most of what he's done during his tenure, he's had a good year so I'll grade him now and give him good marks.

Now if we lose to TB and he just wants to roll it back, including sticking with Keefe than I'd fire him. But this isn't the time to talk about that, not when we're about to go on a historic cup run.

GLG!!

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Respectfully, I don't think he has figured anything out, unless he can prove that his "We can and we will" cap heavy management usage can also produce successful playoff results.

If the problem for Leafs constant failure is having toooo much cap $$ into toooo few players then he hasn't figured anything out, because those are the constants each year and a revolving door of players around of different sizes, styles or experience doesn't address it, only tries to mask it. IMO

Only a long sustained playoff run now will disprove that theory, and another early exit only solidify it more.

What was he supposed to do though? You want Marner, Matthews, or Willy gone? Cause those are the only options.

 

[francis246]

Hearing that Treliving was offered an extension multiple times throughout the year and still decided to walk furthers my fear that Dubas could potentially leave even if Toronto wants him back or even if they have success.

We should have just extended him last year and not put ourselves in this position to give him the opportunity to look elsewhere. But I understand the hesitation by ownership/Shanny.

 

[fahad203]

Hearing that Treliving was offered an extension multiple times throughout the year and still decided to walk furthers my fear that Dubas could potentially leave even if Toronto wants him back or even if they have success.

We should have just extended him last year and not put ourselves in this position to give him the opportunity to look elsewhere. But I understand the hesitation by ownership/Shanny.

This is a gm. Not our star player in Matthews
GMs have shelf life. If Kyle thinks that's the best move for him, then good for him


He only gets an extension if the team does well

He wanted his coach, he wanted his goalie, he wanted certain players. He got his way.
At some point all those has to come through

 

[Niagara Bill]

I see Dubas as very good, but slightly misguided.
He equates the best organization, the best analytical stats, the best trainers, doctors, therapists, best food as the road to success. And it is, but as a long term company, to be named employer of the year, to have a good stock price, to attract great employees, BUT, winning Stanley is a short term, at all cost endeavor...the short term goal not the highest stock price.
It is hard to give the ultimate sacrifice on the ice IF you are too comfortable off it. IMHO.

 

[Mess]

What was he supposed to do though? You want Marner, Matthews, or Willy gone? Cause those are the only options.

If the Leafs fall early again this year there is a strong likelihood we have a new GM and that GM breaks up the core 4 at the same time, and going to be assisted by expiring contracts.

2 birds 1 stone to address a poorly built cap management team.

There is a reason Toronto (and the recent Seattle Kraken) are the only 2 teams to never win a playoff round since the Salary Cap World was instituted. The evidence points to Leafs spending harder not smarter in a Cap World and that is the reason for their downfall cap mismanagement. There is only 1 finger of blame pointing to 1 organizational position and that is the one that signs all the players contracts.

Only a long-run sustained playoff success now, will address that concern and identifiable issue.

One way or another we should have a resolution to this beginning tonight because the outcome of this year's playoff results will the judge and jury.

 

[Stephen]

Yep, looks like he may have finally figured it out.
Now they have to put up.

That’s where I’m landing on this years playoff theme.

 

[notbias]

Respectfully, I don't think he has figured anything out, unless he can prove that his "We can and we will" cap heavy management usage can also produce successful playoff results.

If the problem for Leafs constant failure is having toooo much cap $$ into toooo few players then he hasn't figured anything out, because those are the constants each year and a revolving door of players around of different sizes, styles or experience doesn't address it, only tries to mask it. IMO

Only a long sustained playoff run now will disprove that theory, and another early exit only solidify it more.

What teams are deeper? Boston?

Only teams that didn't circumvent the cap please, no Vegas.

 

[ACC1224]

Hearing that Treliving was offered an extension multiple times throughout the year and still decided to walk furthers my fear that Dubas could potentially leave even if Toronto wants him back or even if they have success.

We should have just extended him last year and not put ourselves in this position to give him the opportunity to look elsewhere. But I understand the hesitation by ownership/Shanny.

I would think he would want to stay to finish what he started, that would be his motivation.

 

[francis246]

This is a gm. Not our star player in Matthews
GMs have shelf life. If Kyle thinks that's the best move for him, then good for him


He only gets an extension if the team does well

He wanted his coach, he wanted his goalie, he wanted certain players. He got his way.
At some point all those has to come through

Having a good GM is essential to winning, what part of that are we as a fan base not understanding? We’ve had good players and haven’t won Jack all. You need a person that can assemble a good team and make changes year to year to keep you competitive. If having good players is the only thing to success why haven’t the Oilers won? Why haven’t the leafs won anything?

Having a good front office and coaching staff is pivotal.