Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[Cor]

Yeah, Dubas hasn't really changed what he's done previously.

We just had a the ability, due to Muzzin's injury, to acquire more than we typically would.

Also helps that some higher end players (ROR, McCabe) were available, and the Leafs were more willing to move off a guy like Sandin.

 

[deprw]

We could have had more of this size and grit in the supporting cast the whole time without ramping up to this moment. Dubas’ first offseason we basically purged out Polak, Komarov and Martin because it wasn’t the brand of hockey he wanted to play. Two of those guys went on to be fairly decent contributors to the Islanders playoff teams of this era.

I am supportive of his evolution as a GM to get to this level at the end of 2022-23. I don’t support the idea that his inheritance from Lou or market forces held him back from this brand over the years. He learned from his own experiences and adjusted the ratio.

You threw in as an example three deals that were close of that Lucic and Chiarot class. Fourth liners that were too expensive for us and we had to get rid of Martin because of the cap. I loved Komarov but he wasn't worth of that contract in situation which we were back then. Polak might have been an option.

I agree that Dubas has evolved and learned along the way, but in a closed market which the NHL is. You just can't build up roster way you like, when you like. It's a process and in that process Dubas has made also few questionable choices. In hindsight we should have added Perry over Simmonds, even though Wayne is probably better in dressing room.

Usually players like Komarov back then are overpaid and not so cost effective. In worst case they're huge burden and because of that pretty risk for a management and a team.

 

[francis246]

Calgary job also now available.

 

[ToneDog]

Calgary job also now available.

Don Maloney has been promoted to President of Hockey Operations and will also hold the position of Interim General Manager. The process to secure the services of the Flames next General Manager will begin immediately.

Pretty sure Kyle is putting his feelers out there. Let's see if teams wait for Kyle.

 

[Gary Nylund]

This is the big question if we lose in round 1 or even don't look great in 2

Dubas needs to be at a minimum willing to part with Keefe if we don't succeed.

I also think he needs to be confident enough to hire an experienced coach and give him what he wants. Trying to make Babcock play Jack Han ball then undermining him to get his way and get him out was arrogant.

I would love to get someone with cup success and then have Dubas work with him to succeed instead of pushing a specific brand of hockey which is what he gets with Keefe

Agreed. Hopefully it doesn't come to that but ... agreed.

 

[Gabriel426]

I wasn't comparing Dubas/Lou. WPG was the 114 point team with the bright looking future referenced earlier, that's who I was talking about.

Comparing to the Jets 4-5yrs ago is not really Apple to Apple.
Buff, their captain, heart and soul, who was as physical as they come suddenly retired. They’re best player at that time-Wheeler needed to resign after a career year at 31 or 32. Kane, Laine and Trouba all for one way or another didn’t want to play for the Jets. They had 4 main pieces that left the team and only really had PLD and Schimt to show for it.

 

[Hellcat]

He's headed to Pittsburgh apparently, le rumor du jour...

 

[Gabriel426]

If hypothetically this version of the Toronto Maple Leafs is the product of Brendan Shanahan being a meddlesome boss, forcing Kyle Dubas into trading for ROR, Acciari, Schenn, McCabe, Lafferty when he didn't want to... I'm comfortable this franchise is in the right hands.

I think Spezza plays a bigger role than Shanny.

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

Treliving is not a bad replacement if Dubas does not want to re-sign. Assuming Shanny can work with him.

 

[ToneDog]

He's headed to Pittsburgh apparently, le rumor du jour...

Yeah, pretty sure his camp is putting those rumours out there but if Servelli is right and there is a power struggle between Shanny and Dubas, Dubas will/should be the one to go IMO.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Comparing to the Jets 4-5yrs ago is not really Apple to Apple.
Buff, their captain, heart and soul, who was as physical as they come suddenly retired. They’re best player at that time-Wheeler needed to resign after a career year at 31 or 32. Kane, Laine and Trouba all for one way or another didn’t want to play for the Jets. They had 4 main pieces that left the team and only really had PLD and Schimt to show for it.

The situations aren't identical of course, but they're at least similar. And I don't follow the Jets that closely so don't really care too much but if the Jets moved guys that didn't want to play there and didn't get a good return in those trades and that's why they're worse, isn't that on the GM?

Saying they only have PLD and Schmidt to show for 4 main players that left - I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Not sure if you're missing anything else but at the very least, you're forgetting that the Jets got Pionk and a 1st round pick in return for Trouba. And Kane, Laine and Trouba are 3 pieces, not 4 (Wheeler's still with the Jets).

The main point though is that just assuming that the Leafs would be consistently so high in the overall standings no matter who the GM was (which many people seem to be doing) isn't a valid one, at least not to me.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Guys like Schenn and Acciari are always available. Lafferty was a free agent. Guys like Sean Kuraly are similar players at a higher price point. There’s Hakanpaa, Ryan Graves. Jonas Siegenthaler.
On the big fish trade market, Jake Muzzin wasn’t the last quality defenseman that was traded in the past 5 years. We could have had a tough, two way, do everything defenseman in Hampus Lindholm if that was a priority.

Maybe we could have gotten Schenn in 2021, but that would have just blocked the development of Liljegren. We got a very similar Lyubushkin that year.
Which defenseman is LD Graves replacing in the 2021 offseason? Is that worth spending a 2nd round pick+ on a questionable 3.2m cap hit?
Pretty sure we offered Hakanpaa the same contract he signed, and he chose Dallas. Which kind of highlights part of the issue with your argument - the assumption that signing players is like going to the grocery store and picking them up off the shelves. They have a choice in the matter too.
The Leafs talked about how they liked and have wanted Acciari for a while, so clearly that wasn't a change of heart. He wasn't available for 3 years while in Florida, and based on their comments, sounds most like they just couldn't make it work last offseason, so they made it work now.
Lafferty never actually hit free agency. He was re-signed by Chicago in April.
Kuraly is overpaid.
Siegenthaler hasn't been available since he broke out - NJ signed him to a 5 year extension last offseason.
As for Lindholm, why would he have been a priority? We already had Rielly, Muzzin, and Sandin down our left side, and we were able to add another tough, two way defenseman in Giordano for less assets, and re-sign him to an amazing extension. And when we lost Muzzin, we went and acquired another tough, two way defenseman with great term and cap hit in McCabe.

It's not like we chose not to acquire these players so we could go and acquire the opposite. They were either not acquirable, already had their roles filled by a similar playstyle player, or we acquired a similar playstyle player in place of them.

We could have had more of this size and grit in the supporting cast the whole time without ramping up to this moment. Dubas’ first offseason we basically purged out Polak, Komarov and Martin because it wasn’t the brand of hockey he wanted to play.

First off, Polak and Komarov weren't "purged". They were UFAs.
And second, those players (and Martin) weren't brought back because they weren't good enough and were massively overpaid, not because of their playstyle.
Babcock, under Lou, is the one that made Komarov and Martin healthy scratches in the playoffs, not Dubas.
Dubas is the one who replaced Polak with a similar Ozhiganov, and later, the just as tough but much, much better Muzzin.

 

[rocketman588]

Yeah, pretty sure his camp is putting those rumours out there but if Servelli is right and there is a power struggle between Shanny and Dubas, Dubas will/should be the one to go IMO.

IMHO if it is his camp and not just media BS they need to stfu.

Now is not the time to create a controversy they could have done that all season and during the off season if he really wanted to negotiate his contract through leaks

There's a better then not chance this is classic Toronto media clickbait however so I'll give dubas the benefit of the doubt

 

[4thline]

The main point though is that just assuming that the Leafs would be consistently so high in the overall standings no matter who the GM was (which many people seem to be doing) isn't a valid one, at least not to me.

Bingo. The whole parallel was to point out that despite people's petulant delusions having the 5th most regular season points over the last 5 seasons - even without "round wins" to go with it- is no where near a worst case result that could only have been improved upon.

 

[Stephen]

I think Spezza plays a bigger role than Shanny.

The most straight forward answer is it’s a Dubas led effort that’s learned from past mistakes and building a more balanced playoff team.

If there’s some bizarro dysfunctional dynamic where Shanahan or Spezza are forcing this and that. It’s still giving us the roster I personally want to see. So I’m not too worried either way.

 

[egd27]

Always thought promoting Dubas when they did was a mistake due to his inexperience and lack of "being around" the NHL. To me, it made sense to let him apprentice for a longer period of time (like TBL did with BriseBois) or let him go another market to learn on the job for a few years.

However, since neither of those things happened, TML and it's fans have lived with both the good and bad as he "learned on the job" here. Now at the point where it appears he has indeed learned some good lessons, and gained the experience he needed, it seems rather foolish for MLSE to let him walk.

But letting an asset develop in Toronto and then leave is certainly part of this organization's DNA

 

[Stephen]

Maybe we could have gotten Schenn in 2021, but that would have just blocked the development of Liljegren. We got a very similar Lyubushkin that year.
Which defenseman is LD Graves replacing in the 2021 offseason? Is that worth spending a 2nd round pick+ on a questionable 3.2m cap hit?
Pretty sure we offered Hakanpaa the same contract he signed, and he chose Dallas. Which kind of highlights part of the issue with your argument - the assumption that signing players is like going to the grocery store and picking them up off the shelves. They have a choice in the matter too.
The Leafs talked about how they liked and have wanted Acciari for a while, so clearly that wasn't a change of heart. He wasn't available for 3 years while in Florida, and based on their comments, sounds most like they just couldn't make it work last offseason, so they made it work now.
Lafferty never actually hit free agency. He was re-signed by Chicago in April.
Kuraly is overpaid.
Siegenthaler hasn't been available since he broke out - NJ signed him to a 5 year extension last offseason.
As for Lindholm, why would he have been a priority? We already had Rielly, Muzzin, and Sandin down our left side, and we were able to add another tough, two way defenseman in Giordano for less assets, and re-sign him to an amazing extension. And when we lost Muzzin, we went and acquired another tough, two way defenseman with great term and cap hit in McCabe.

It's not like we chose not to acquire these players so we could go and acquire the opposite. They were either not acquirable, already had their roles filled by a similar playstyle player, or we acquired a similar playstyle player in place of them.

First off, Polak and Komarov weren't "purged". They were UFAs.
And second, those players (and Martin) weren't brought back because they weren't good enough and were massively overpaid, not because of their playstyle.
Babcock, under Lou, is the one that made Komarov and Martin healthy scratches in the playoffs, not Dubas.
Dubas is the one who replaced Polak with a similar Ozhiganov, and later, the just as tough but much, much better Muzzin.

Long story short, what is your point? There’s only really two options here.

Option 1, Dubas is a bright guy who has learned from experience and has changed the mixture of the roster over a number of playoff tries, gaining insights as a GM and building a heavier or more physical team.

Option 2, Dubas has always been perfect.

Pick whichever suits you best.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Could be some meat to the rift story. Dubas said/was told to say last September that 22-23 was the final year of his deal, leading many to believe this playoff will decide his future. Shanahan would also be more likely to be Seravalli's source. I doubt Dubas would want that story to go beyond the boardroom.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Long story short, what is your point? There’s only really two options here.

Option 1, Dubas is a bright guy who has learned from experience and has changed the mixture of the roster over a number of playoff tries, gaining insights as a GM and building a heavier or more physical team.
Option 2, Dubas has always been perfect.

Pick whichever suits you best.

Long story short, the way you're describing what's happened over the past 5 years is inaccurate.

Those aren't the only two options. It's very clearly option 3: Nobody is perfect, but Dubas is and always has been a good GM, that has always strived to bring a good balance and incorporate all playstyles into his team. He learns from his experiences, but he hasn't changed his core philosophies, and he has never shied away from adding physicality. Situations, opportunities, and needs change over the years, and this year, we had the opportunity to add more pieces than usual - including two impact pieces in O'Rielly and McCabe - but as I showed you in my earlier post, the type of pieces haven't changed much from previous deadline additions.

For some reason, you keep attempting to put Dubas in this labeled box of your creation, that isn't really supported by anything.

 

[leafan11]

Friedman just reported in his blog that a Dubas extension was possibly blocked by ownership recently .

 

[hockeywiz542]

Friedman just reported in his blog that a Dubas extension was possibly blocked by ownership recently .

32 Thoughts: Why Brad Treliving and the Flames agreed to 'part ways'

The Calgary Flames are on the search for a new GM as they and Brad Treliving mutually agreed to part. So why did it happen now, and what will be the path from here? That and more in this week's thoughts.

www.sportsnet.ca

5. Okay, Kyle Dubas. In the aftermath of the regular season, just talking to other teams, it’s amazing how they perceive what’s happening in Toronto. They find it hard to believe he’s leaving. They think all these rumours are just various stakeholders sabre-rattling and negotiating through the media. “He’s got the best winning percentage (among GMs post-expansion) in franchise history,” one executive laughed. “He’s not going anywhere.” (Yes, yes, we all know and recognize the playoff issue.)

Remember the ownership structure in Toronto: Rogers (37.5 per cent), Bell (37.5 per cent) and Larry Tanenbaum (25 per cent). I do believe, at one point in relatively recent history, a contract extension for Dubas was proposed, only to be blocked because there wasn’t enough ownership support. That’s where Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is right now.

I’ve mentioned this before, but firing Mike Babcock with $25M remaining on his contract changed the organizational dynamic for extending people. It affected the Masai Ujiri negotiations, now Dubas’s (plus others we don’t see publicly) and strained relationships across the organization. If Dubas indeed comes available, there will be plenty of interest. We’ll see if everyone comes to their senses.

 

[Rob Brown]

32 Thoughts: Why Brad Treliving and the Flames agreed to 'part ways'

The Calgary Flames are on the search for a new GM as they and Brad Treliving mutually agreed to part. So why did it happen now, and what will be the path from here? That and more in this week's thoughts.

www.sportsnet.ca

5. Okay, Kyle Dubas. In the aftermath of the regular season, just talking to other teams, it’s amazing how they perceive what’s happening in Toronto. They find it hard to believe he’s leaving. They think all these rumours are just various stakeholders sabre-rattling and negotiating through the media. “He’s got the best winning percentage (among GMs post-expansion) in franchise history,” one executive laughed. “He’s not going anywhere.” (Yes, yes, we all know and recognize the playoff issue.)

Remember the ownership structure in Toronto: Rogers (37.5 per cent), Bell (37.5 per cent) and Larry Tanenbaum (25 per cent). I do believe, at one point in relatively recent history, a contract extension for Dubas was proposed, only to be blocked because there wasn’t enough ownership support. That’s where Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is right now.

I’ve mentioned this before, but firing Mike Babcock with $25M remaining on his contract changed the organizational dynamic for extending people. It affected the Masai Ujiri negotiations, now Dubas’s (plus others we don’t see publicly) and strained relationships across the organization. If Dubas indeed comes available, there will be plenty of interest. We’ll see if everyone comes to their senses.

I don't think this is terribly surprising. Ownership (whether it is Bell or Rogers or Larry) want success in the playoffs. If the Leafs do something this spring, Dubas will probably be re-signed. if not and we lose against Tampa, he's probably gone.

 

[al secord]

I hear the Charlestown Chiefs are moving to Florida and he's going to head up operations there.

 

[fahad203]

Not sure what the discussions are really all about

This is a performance based industry. If the team does well, he gets to stay. If he doesn't, then well on to the next guy
Vegas had no problem firing their Stanly Cup run coach, Bergevin and the Habs were in the finals, they fired him the year after

Welcome to the big league. This is not NGO, where you hug and talk about your problems.

A lot of GM's have come into this league with a lot of fan fare who was supposed to be the next prodigy. JFJ was one of them, he still can't get a GM job. Dallas Eakins was supposed to be an upcoming coach. Neal was supposed to be a great GM, so was Chayka, so was


Dubas made his bed with his buddy Keefe. If the team does well, then both of them get to stay. Team must come first

I know what some of you are going to say, well who's going to be our GM. What does really even matter? this GM hasn't gotten it done yet. There are plenty of GM's who needs a chance. I mean Sean Burke, Roberto Luongo, Craig Conroy are some waiting on the wings. LIke Gallant and Cassidy someone will be avaialble

A GM is not the cornerstone of a team. If that was the case Glen Sather would have a lifetime contract with the Oilers so would Peter Chirelli with the Boston Bruins, Dean Lombardi with the Kings. All of them atleast won stanly cups

Like I said, his team has to do well. He hired the coach, he got the player. If goes well, I'll have no problem signing him to a 5 year extension
If it doesn't. I would like to see him go in 5 mintues

The success of the team comes first. Not just the potential

 

[Shooter2x]

I've become content. People still defend that he's a good GM but there's almost nobody who puts up a fight to the thought of him leaving any more. I think a lot of you secretly enjoy the trash talking I've done the past few months even though your gang life here won't allow you to admit it. There's no way you see that core and don't feel pure anger that we don't have a cup by now.

The most they'll say is we will regret letting him go, but it's said more in theory with no emotional attachment.