Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[DarkKnight]

I recognized that Barrie is skilled, but it doesn't matter how skilled you are if you get scored against way more than you produce goals... overall, he's probably been a net negative, which is why I label him as a 3rd pairing guy.

Perhaps flawed top 4 is a better characterization.

 

[Bluebear]

"Sports are a results oriented business".

5 Elements of a SMART Business Goal

View attachment 288771

Specific = Dubas was hired to replace Lou Lam as Leafs GM with the objective of advancing Leafs beyond the 1st round of the playoffs and winning the Cup
Measurable = Results YTD .. Year #1 - Loss in Round #1 .. Breakeven no improvement
Attainable = Year #2 - Currently on pace trending to miss playoffs
Relevant = Leafs Window of Cup competitiveness = length of player contracts before stars hit UFA status = 5/6 years.
Time-Based = Year #1 = Failure, Year #2 = Concerned, Year #3 = TBD, Year #4 = TBD, Year #5 = TBD

Grading:
Win Stanley Cup = Happy
Continue to make playoffs annually = Adequate
Miss playoffs with no chance at Cup = Concerned

I think a lot of people are too hung up on winning the cup as the be all and end all of management success. On average you can do this once every 32 years now. Every team has smart people working there, every scout knows who the very best kids are. I think a better way of evaluating management is grading the quality of the assets they manage to keep. If I owned the Leafs I would be looking for management to field a team that had a chance to win, and hope like hell it happened each year. If I was grading Dubas this year and the Leafs missed the playoffs, I wouldn't be ready to fire him as long as he sold off the expiring assets for good value and shuffled the deck for next year. On the other hand If he went nuts expending good assets on deadline acquisitions, plus kept the expiring UFAs and didn't have playoff success I would be looking at replacing him. I think its a mistake to say that you're only happy if they win cup. You should be happy with continual playoff appearances, really happy if your team frequently makes it past the 1st round and thrilled if they win it all.

 

[DarkKnight]

Kadri was a flawed man. Kessel was a flawed man. Seguin was a flawed man. Hamilton was a flawed man.
That makes them terrible players and scrubs?

Colorado traded him because they had Makar coming up, a blue-chip elite prospect on ELC versus giving Barrie a large extension.

We needed a top-4 RHD, it doesn't matter if he's another strong offensive/possession talent. We've never had one of those, and all the previous GMs failed to get that for us.

Terrible and scrubs? See ya.

 

[egd27]

Tyson Barrie has been scored against 35 times (when removing PK goals), and the Leafs have only scored 23 goals (ignoring PP goals) with Barrie on the ice...

In contrast, the Leafs have been scored against 21 times (when removing PK goals), and have scored 25 goals (ignoring PP goals) with Ceci on the ice...

And people here like to complain about Ceci... why turn a blind eye on Barrie??

Because he recently scored 3 goals in 3 games. That buys a lot of forgiveness in this neck of the woods.

 

[MyBudJT]

Perhaps flawed top 4 is a better characterization.

The term "flawed top 4" is a rather flattering description based on what he has brought to this team, but okay...

 

[Madap]

I don't think we can afford both Kapanen/Johnsson long term anyway. I'm not saying we should go out to lose a trade, just that if we get a piece we badly need and it's the difference between making or not making the playoffs, losing a trade isn't the end of the world.

And I do believe we can win the cup with this roster.



I agree with the bolded. The way things have gone though, if we do miss out by a couple of points the backup won't be the only reason - the fact that we started the season with the wrong coach has been costly as well IMO.

I agree that we'll most likely make the playoffs anyway, even with Hutch. And I do expect Hutch to play better going forward as well.

Yeah, you're definitely right. One of them is gone for sure. They're good, young players and I'd so much rather trade them for a defenseman rather than a backup goalie, unless it is a young backup goalie with potential to replace Andersen. Doubt many of those are available for trade though.

I also believe this roster can win it all too. Its just a matter of everyone putting it together at the same time.

 

[DarkKnight]

Was a fan of his and a defender, loved his moves. Now, not so much. I like he has the balls to make a move, but dislike how he has shaped the team. Not a lot of guys who play with their heart on their sleeve, and given his comments about betting his career on this roster, I doubt he admits to being wrong and acquires some guys that give the team a different look.

His management of the contracts of the "big three" and the failure to address the goal tending two years running have this team playing much worse than their potential. And given we are all in this year and not even in a playoff spot, not sure how anyone could rate him as good.

The fact he still hasn’t acquired a goalie suggests he can’t admit he was wrong. What more could we possibly need to see, there is literally nothing behind Freddie.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I recognized that Barrie is skilled, but it doesn't matter how skilled you are if you get scored against way more than you produce goals... overall, he's probably been a net negative, which is why I label him as a 3rd pairing guy.

then you should also criticize Dubas for bringing back Marner who is also a net negative this year. Even your bud JT is a net negative

 

[egd27]

But losing a trade for a backup goalie that's not even going to play in the playoffs? Probably not the best idea

How about losing a trade for a backup goalie that's going to dramatically increase the chances of making the playoffs?

 

[DarkKnight]

Because he recently scored 3 goals in 3 games. That buys a lot of forgiveness in this neck of the woods.

He hasn’t posted a point in five games since and he’s a well deserved minus 4. For balance...

 

[MyBudJT]

then you should also criticize Dubas for bringing back Marner who is also a net negative this year. Even your bud JT is a net negative

False, bobo.

 

[Cleetus]

The fact he still hasn’t acquired a goalie suggests he can’t admit he was wrong. What more could we possibly need to see, there is literally nothing behind Freddie.

shooter tutor is better than what dubas has done to address the back up situation....

 

[ToneDog]

I think he needs to trade Jonsson and Kapanen, if he has any plans on upgrading the D next year. They will have to pay more for Mikheyev if they keep him, and im not sure what the plan is for Muzzin and Barrie. Cant see throwing big money at either one of those. Paying those 4 forwards like he has, will make it difficult to ice a decent defence, unless the young guys overperform by a fair margin.

Trade Kappy and AJ and you are left with Matty and JT as your only goal scorers. Nylander is the piece you need to move to get a top 3 dman.

 

[DarkKnight]

then you should also criticize Dubas for bringing back Marner who is also a net negative this year. Even your bud JT is a net negative

So silly.

 

[BertCorbeau]

In which way is Barrie a "legit talent"?? I'll ask to limit your sample to what he's done in a Leaf uniform...

Why would I limit myself to a sample size that occurred after the trade occurred? That doesn’t make sense. At the time of the trade he has score 10+ goals five times, 40+ points four times including three 50+ point seasons.

His numbers have not exponentially increased with Mackinnons development in the last two years.

He’s a legit top end offensive defenseman

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Shows a lack of trust defensively, so “fantastic” is a bit of a stretch. Just an observation for consideration, if he was getting the hard minutes in our end, sure it would be touted.

Barrie is 35th among D-men in offensive-zone starts.

Krug, Carlo, Klefbom, Makar, Klingberg, Fowler, Theodore, Sergachev, Yandle, etc are 'sheltered' more.

Seth Jones, Werenski, Dermott, etc have similar zone starts.

Ron Hainsey has 54.68% offensive-starts this year (2nd easiest on the team), which is less than 2% less than Barrie's offensive starts.

So what on earth is the issue with the usage? Barrie is a top-end offensive D-man and he's being used like one. I think he should get even more offensive starts, but Keefe seems to trust him on that top-pair. Rielly needs more offensive zone starts too, so I like that pairing.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

False, bobo.

Marner: 8 GF, 16 GA (33.3 GF%)
Barrie: 17 GF, 28 GA (37.8 GF%)
Tavares: 13 GF, 18 GA (41.9 GF%)
Seems true to me. Why is Barrie the only one who is a net negative?

 

[Kamiccolo]

The fact he still hasn’t acquired a goalie suggests he can’t admit he was wrong. What more could we possibly need to see, there is literally nothing behind Freddie.

I thought after he launched Sparks into the sun he would go out and secure the backup position. All this talk about resting Freddy, and he will have to play even more this season to even squeak into the playoffs.

What makes it worse is that Lou left him with arguably the top goalie depth in the league.

 

[GoonieFace]

Trade Kappy and AJ and you are left with Matty and JT as your only goal scorers. Nylander is the piece you need to move to get a top 3 dman.

I agree, but I think we all know thats never happening.

 

[DarkKnight]

I thought after he launched Sparks into the sun he would go out and secure the backup position. All this talk about resting Freddy, and he will have to play even more this season to even squeak into the playoffs.

What makes it worse is that Lou left him with arguably the top goalie depth in the league.

Everyone thought we needed to rest Andersen, so what is this stuff now? Not only don’t we have someone who could perhaps play beyond back to backs, we have a guy so scary we might need Freddie to play back to backs.

I’ve found this instructive, that some here are able to now mention Sparks being better and it actually makes sense. That’s how awful the situation, brutal looks relatively okay.

 

[RoyalCitySlicker]

The fact he still hasn’t acquired a goalie suggests he can’t admit he was wrong. What more could we possibly need to see, there is literally nothing behind Freddie.

I don't agree. I would imagine the rest of the hockey world is keenly aware of the TML back up situation, and their ask on goaltenders of any value likely goes up when Kyle calls....especially if you're of the belief the Dubas routinely gets fleeced. Why would a team want to help the Leafs out, especially if Dubas is so dumb.

If your criticism is that he hasn't signed someone like the rotting corpse of Keith Kincaid, well, I would be upset if he did!

If you're speaking only about last offseason, I too would have liked him to target someone different than Hutchinson. He's bad.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Calling Barrie a 3rd pairing D-man tells you all you need to know about Leaf fans and their overreactions lol.

 

[MyBudJT]

Marner: 8 GF, 16 GA (33.3 GF%)
Barrie: 17 GF, 28 GA (37.8 GF%)
Tavares: 13 GF, 18 GA (41.9 GF%)
Seems true to me. Why is Barrie the only one who is a net negative?

For one, they've had much more difficulty in usage....

For two, they had a rough start with a smaller sample size to work with, so it makes their play look worse than what its been


Team GA (minus PP TGA):
Barrie: 35
Tavares: 24
Marner: 18

Team GF(minus PP TGF)
Barrie: 23
Tavares: 22
Marner: 16

Team Goal differential:
Barrie: -12
Tavares: -2
Marner: -2

 

[DarkKnight]

I don't agree. I would imagine the rest of the hockey world is keenly aware of the TML back up situation, and their ask on goaltenders of any value likely goes up when Kyle calls....especially if you're of the belief the Dubas routinely gets fleeced. Why would a team want to help the Leafs out, especially if Dubas is so dumb.

If your criticism is that he hasn't signed someone like the rotting corpse of Keith Kincaid, well, I would be upset if he did!

If you're speaking only about last offseason, I too would have liked him to target someone different than Hutchinson. He's bad.

Wow, so you stand pat. Scary.

 

[MyBudJT]

Calling Barrie a 3rd pairing D-man tells you all you need to know about Leaf fans and their overreactions lol.

Prove it wrong... lol. Barrie has by far been our worst defensman this season...