Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[forecheck]

We have two more back to backs this month? Is he actually going to stick with Hutchinson or will we run Andy into the ground because it’s our only choice?

Our backup situation is farcical.

If they are serious about making the playoffs then this needs to be addressed prior to those back to backs - The team cant give away any more points.

 

[ACC1224]

LOL at Tyson Barrie being a 3rd pairing Dman.

Yeah, he's not but still a rental and at some point he will have to be replaced by a 3rd pairing player(cap wise).

 

[stopclickbait]

LOL again at Tyson Barrie being a 3rd pairing Dman.

Glad I wasn't the only one to think that was a bad joke lol

 

[Buds17]

There are a few Dubas decisions I don't agree with / understand... but overall I don't hate him.

Some of my issues include:
1) Trading Brown because he got paid 2.1M, but then goes ahead and signs Johnsson for 3.5 x 4
2) Trade Kadri for a 3rd pairing defensemen (or 13th forward, readlly) and lesser centerman...
3) Overpays RFAs in general... especially Nylander, Matthews and Marner
4) Opting to keep Johnsson instead of a 1st round pick when dumping Marleau on Carolina...

He seems to be doing a good job of drafting and developing talent, though.

Brown dropped as far down as the fourth line when the lineup was healthy. Johnsson was going to play higher up than him regardless. That contract only starts to be an issue if he can't remain alongside Matthews (or Tavares).

I'd say keeping Johnsson over the 1st was with the hope that the pick is from a playoff spot and not the draft lottery. Johnsson should definitely have the greater value if that happens.

 

[MyBudJT]

Tyson Barrie has been scored against 35 times (when removing PK goals), and the Leafs have only scored 23 goals (ignoring PP goals) with Barrie on the ice...

In contrast, the Leafs have been scored against 21 times (when removing PK goals), and have scored 25 goals (ignoring PP goals) with Ceci on the ice...

And people here like to complain about Ceci... why turn a blind eye on Barrie??

 

[GoonieFace]

I think he needs to trade Jonsson and Kapanen, if he has any plans on upgrading the D next year. They will have to pay more for Mikheyev if they keep him, and im not sure what the plan is for Muzzin and Barrie. Cant see throwing big money at either one of those. Paying those 4 forwards like he has, will make it difficult to ice a decent defence, unless the young guys overperform by a fair margin.

 

[zeke]

Fascinating stuff, here's my rebuttal:

Our backup sucks and that's been by far our biggest problem this season. Not being able to afford a better one is a huge issue.

Well, i'd agree that so far Dubas' biggest failing has been backup goalies. Not sure whether it's bad luck, bad coaching, or just bad goalies, but it's been really bad so far. But I don't really care that there's no money for backups.

All primary Backup goalies:

PIT Jarry: 9gs, .943 -------- 0.7 x 1yrs
COL Francouz: 9gs, .931 --- 1.0 x 1yrs
BOS Halak: 12gs, .930 ------ 2.8 x 1yrs
STL Allen: 8gs, .927 --------- 4.4 x 2yrs
ARZ Raanta: 11gs, .926 ----- 4.3 x 2yrs
NYR Georgiev: 13gs, .926 -- 0.8 x 1yrs
NYI Varlamov: 14gs, .923 -- 5.0 x 4yrs
DAL Khudobin: 10gs, .922 -- 2.5 x 1yrs
CAR Reimer: 10gs, .918 ----- 3.4 x 2yrs
WSH Samsonov: 9gs, .917 -- 0.9 x 2yrs
PHI Elliott: 12gs, .915 ------- 2.0 x 1yrs
CHI Crawford: 15gs, .912 --- 6.0 x 1yrs
ANA Miller: 8gs, .908 -------- 1.1 x 1yrs
TB McElhinney: 7gs, .908 --- 1.3 x 2yrs
VAN Demko: 12gs, .906 ----- 1.1 x 2yrs
EDM Smith: 16gs, .903 ------ 2.0 x 1yrs
OTT Anderson: 14gs, .901 --- 4.8 x 1yrs
VGK Subban: 12gs, .901 ----- 0.9 x 1yrs
BUF Hutton: 15gs, .901 ------ 2.8 x 2yrs
CGY Talbot: 7gs, .895 -------- 2.8 x 1yrs
CBJ Merzlikins: 7gs, .894 ---- 0.9 x 1yrs
MIN Dubnyk: 13gs, .893 ----- 4.3 x 2yrs
SJS Dell: 8gs, .893 ------------ 1.9 x 1yrs
NSH Saros: 11gs, .891 -------- 1.5 x 2yrs
LAK Campbell: 11gs, .891 ---- 1.7 x 3yrs
FLA Montembeault: 5gs, .889 - 0.7 x 1yrs
DET Howard: 14gs, .887 ----- 4.0 x 1yrs
WPG Brossoit: 7gs, .885 ----- 1.2 x 1yrs
TOR Hutchinson: 6gs, .876 -- 0.7 x 1yrs
MTL Kinkaid: 5gs, .875 ------- 1.8 x 1yrs
NJD Schneider: 6gs, .852 ----- 6.0 x 3yrs


Criticize Dubas for not getting a better backup, maybe, but I don't care much that he didn't leave any money for an expensive one. He should be able to find one for cheap.

For the record, last year's backups combined for a .905sv%, and a 10-11-1 record in their starts, and cost league minimum.

Maybe Hutch does completely suck, or maybe he's been unlucky, or maybe he'll look better once the team gets sorted out in its new systems. Maybe he gets one more chance under the new coach before pulling the plug. I dunno. But I don't think we need to be spending any real money on a backup.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Tyson Barrie has been scored against 35 times (when removing PK goals), and the Leafs have only scored 23 goals (ignoring PP goals) with Barrie on the ice...

In contrast, the Leafs have been scored against 21 times (when removing PK goals), and have scored 25 goals (ignoring PP goals) with Ceci on the ice...

And people here like to complain about Ceci... why turn a blind eye on Barrie??

Tyson Barrie has been fantastic under Keefe.

Most of those goals against came when Babcock was misused Barrie, and the Muzzin-Barrie were forced together when they weren't working out. Look at Muzzin's GA too, it's pretty bad even though he's amazing defensively.

It's absolutely hysterical you called him a 3rd-pairing Dman LOL.

I trashed Ceci before the season started, but then as the season progressed Ceci doesn't look too bad, he was also heavily misused under Babcock. 3rd pairing minutes are fantastic for him and he can PK.

 

[MyBudJT]

Tyson Barrie has been fantastic under Keefe.

Most of those goals against came when Babcock was misused Barrie, and the Muzzin-Barrie were forced together when they weren't working out. Look at Muzzin's GA too, it's pretty bad even though he's amazing defensively.

It's absolutely hysterical you called him a 3rd-pairing Dman LOL.

I trashed Ceci before the season started, but then as the season progressed Ceci doesn't look too bad, he was also heavily misused under Babcock. 3rd pairing minutes are fantastic for him and he can PK.

For the first 3 games maybe... Barrie has come back down to earth... Muzzin has been on the ice for 29 goals against (non PK), and he has significantly less ozone starts when compared to Barrie....

I agree regarding Ceci, overall he's been better for us than Barrie has been!

 

[Madap]

Agree 100%. Trade one of those guys for a decent backup and we're a much better team overnight even if we "lose" the trade.

I don't think that's a good strategy for this team. We're trying to build something sustainable so we shouldn't be "losing" trades for a quick fix. Maybe if we are Stanley Cup contenders and we're really going for it, then sure, that's fine.

But losing a trade for a backup goalie that's not even going to play in the playoffs? Probably not the best idea.

If the only reason we aren't making the playoffs is because of our backup, then we aren't a good enough team to win the Stanley Cup anyway, even if we trade for a competent backup. (For the record I don't think this is the case. We'll make the playoffs even if Hutch is our backup for the rest of the way).

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I like a lot of what he's done, but coaching and finding a backup goalie were two very important changes he had to make in the offseason and it put the team in a hole. There are a few other areas of concern as well but I think just in terms of building a good team, he's doing a fine job

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't think that's a good strategy for this team. We're trying to build something sustainable so we shouldn't be "losing" trades for a quick fix. Maybe if we are Stanley Cup contenders and we're really going for it, then sure, that's fine.

But losing a trade for a backup goalie that's not even going to play in the playoffs? Probably not the best idea.

I don't think we can afford both Kapanen/Johnsson long term anyway. I'm not saying we should go out to lose a trade, just that if we get a piece we badly need and it's the difference between making or not making the playoffs, losing a trade isn't the end of the world.

And I do believe we can win the cup with this roster.

If the only reason we aren't making the playoffs is because of our backup, then we aren't a good enough team to win the Stanley Cup anyway, even if we trade for a competent backup. (For the record I don't think this is the case. We'll make the playoffs even if Hutch is our backup for the rest of the way).

I agree with the bolded. The way things have gone though, if we do miss out by a couple of points the backup won't be the only reason - the fact that we started the season with the wrong coach has been costly as well IMO.

I agree that we'll most likely make the playoffs anyway, even with Hutch. And I do expect Hutch to play better going forward as well.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Say what you want about his philosophy and roster composition, you have to give him credit for bringing in some legit talent that previous GMs struggled to get (Muzzin, Barrie, Tavares). He’s also shown some promise in his drafting ability as highlighted by Sandin and to a lesser extent Robinson during his brief tenure.

There are obvious criticisms but it’s nice to talk about the positives once in awhile

 

[Zack47]

Mistakes have accumulated to a critical point. Making the same point as the earlier thread -- I argued at the time the Tavares signing was a mistake, and the dominoes have now all fallen. When 4 guys make 50% of your budget, and 17 others make 50%, how do you build depth? It's not possible.

But I want to raise a mistake I don't think anyone has commented on. Trading Nazem Kadri: it was more of a mistake than people seem to see. I would much rather have Kadri and Rosen than Kerfoot and Barrie. Think about it. What is one of the biggest problems of this team as a team? No grit, no sandpaper? Kadri had that, and he was about the last one out the door to bring that to the team. I think the Leafs would be better with him than what happened in the trade. For one thing -- why add Barrie if you have Rielly? I don't want to hear that Kadri lost playoffs for the team. Nonsense: there are 19 other guys playing out there, including the top stars on the team. Dubas has made a series of mistakes, including the insane Marner contract (which Mitch should tear up and take 2 million less), but trading Kadri was a nail in the coffin....

 

[MyBudJT]

Say what you want about his philosophy and roster composition, you have to give him credit for bringing in some legit talent that previous GMs struggled to get (Muzzin, Barrie, Tavares). He’s also shown some promise in his drafting ability as highlighted by Sandin and to a lesser extent Robinson during his brief tenure.

There are obvious criticisms but it’s nice to talk about the positives once in awhile

In which way is Barrie a "legit talent"?? I'll ask to limit your sample to what he's done in a Leaf uniform...

 

[DarkKnight]

Tyson Barrie has been scored against 35 times (when removing PK goals), and the Leafs have only scored 23 goals (ignoring PP goals) with Barrie on the ice...

In contrast, the Leafs have been scored against 21 times (when removing PK goals), and have scored 25 goals (ignoring PP goals) with Ceci on the ice...

And people here like to complain about Ceci... why turn a blind eye on Barrie??

Barrie led the team in offensive zone starts last game, 85 percent. Keefe is sheltering him, that isn’t top 4, or at the least, it’s concerning top 4. Even with the sporadic offence, he’s a liability defensively and both coaches have seemingly seen that.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

In which way is Barrie a "legit talent"?? I'll ask to limit your sample to what he's done in a Leaf uniform...

Why would we only look at a sample that Dubas didn't have when he brought him in?

 

[MyBudJT]

Why would we only look at a sample that Dubas didn't have when he brought him in?

Because it doesn't matter what he did in Colorado... He was carried by Mackinnon there.... what made him successful in Colorado clearly isn't here in Toronto...

 

[ToneDog]

LOL at people blaming Marner for Dubas' poor cap management.

Personally I was hoping Marner would save Dubas from himself but he did not.

 

[DarkKnight]

Because it doesn't matter what he did in Colorado... He was carried by Mackinnon there.... what made him successful in Colorado clearly isn't here in Toronto...

He was still a flawed D man on Colorado, which is why they didn’t want to resign him at a large freight and traded him.

Barrie has a lot of good skill, the question is was this the type of D man the Leafs needed to augment their group? Did we really need another softie back there, for one year? Hmmm.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Barrie led the team in offensive zone starts last game, 85 percent. Keefe is sheltering him, that isn’t top 4, or at the least, it’s concerning top 4. Even with the sporadic offence, he’s a liability defensively and both coaches have seemingly seen that.

And he's been fantastic in those minutes, what's the issue?

 

[MyBudJT]

He was still a flawed D man on Colorado, which is why they didn’t want to resign him at a large freight and traded him.

Barrie has a lot of good skill, the question is was this the type of D man the Leafs needed to augment their group? Did we really need another softie back there, for one year? Hmmm.

I recognized that Barrie is skilled, but it doesn't matter how skilled you are if you get scored against way more than you produce goals... overall, he's probably been a net negative, which is why I label him as a 3rd pairing guy.

 

[DarkKnight]

And he's been fantastic in those minutes, what's the issue?

Shows a lack of trust defensively, so “fantastic” is a bit of a stretch. Just an observation for consideration, if he was getting the hard minutes in our end, sure it would be touted.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Was a fan of his and a defender, loved his moves. Now, not so much. I like he has the balls to make a move, but dislike how he has shaped the team. Not a lot of guys who play with their heart on their sleeve, and given his comments about betting his career on this roster, I doubt he admits to being wrong and acquires some guys that give the team a different look.

His management of the contracts of the "big three" and the failure to address the goal tending two years running have this team playing much worse than their potential. And given we are all in this year and not even in a playoff spot, not sure how anyone could rate him as good.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

He was still a flawed D man on Colorado, which is why they didn’t want to resign him at a large freight and traded him.

Barrie has a lot of good skill, the question is was this the type of D man the Leafs needed to augment their group? Did we really need another softie back there, for one year? Hmmm.

Kadri was a flawed man. Kessel was a flawed man. Seguin was a flawed man. Hamilton was a flawed man.
That makes them terrible players and scrubs?

Colorado traded him because they had Makar coming up, a blue-chip elite prospect on ELC versus giving Barrie a large extension.

We needed a top-4 RHD, it doesn't matter if he's another strong offensive/possession talent. We've never had one of those, and all the previous GMs failed to get that for us.