Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[cesareborgia]

Marleau as leverage?

Your calendar is broken. It's New Years, not April Fools.

Obviously you don't know much about negotiation tactics. That or you've had a few too many. Happy new year.

 

[Merrrlin]

Obviously you don't know much about negotiation tactics. That or you've had a few too many. Happy new year.

Just because you are a good GM in NHL 20 doesn’t mean your tactics would work in the real world.

There’s a reason Dubas is being paid millions to run the team while you are spending your New Year’s Day bickering on HFBoards....and it’s not because you know better than him.

 

[cesareborgia]

Just because you are a good GM in NHL 20 doesn’t mean your tactics would work in the real world.

There’s a reason Dubas is being paid million to run the team whole you are spending your New Year’s Day bickering on HFBoards....and it’s not because you know better than him.

Don't play video games actually. And I'm currently in a time zone 13 hours ahead. But whatever, keep defending Daddy Dubas.

But try and understand that you have zero concept what you are talking about. Dubas is an awful negotiator

 

[LeafsNation75]

Just because you are a good GM in NHL 20 doesn’t mean your tactics would work in the real world.

There’s a reason Dubas is being paid millions to run the team while you are spending your New Year’s Day bickering on HFBoards....and it’s not because you know better than him.

I might not be a GM myself, however when I hear something like Marleau admitting he would most likely not play the 3rd year of his contract, I can see why Shanahan made Dubas the GM instead of renewing Lamoriello's contract to continue in that role.

 

[Merrrlin]

Don't play video games actually. And I'm currently in a time zone 13 hours ahead. But whatever, keep defending Daddy Dubas.

But try and understand that you have zero concept what you are talking about. Dubas is an awful negotiator

There’s a lot of respectable ways to debate subjects like this.

Pretending to be an expert and knowing exactly how and why things went down is not one of them.

What makes you a voice of authority on the subject, exactly?

 

[cesareborgia]

There’s a lot of respectable ways to debate subjects like this.

Pretending to be an expert and knowing exactly how and why things went down is not one of them.

What makes you a voice of authority on the subject, exactly?

I am no such thing. You don't need to be an expert to see what's going on. All you need is an average IQ and a basic understanding of dealmaking.

When a deal is made, you look at market value, and you look at comparables. If you've paid above market value, or more than what the comparables are getting, you've made a bad deal. You are then by definition a bad negotiatior.

 

[Martin Skoula]

You misunderstood my point. Giving away the pick is nowhere near the problem that the overpayments are. The Marleau contract could have been used as leverage in the negotiations. An experienced negotiator would have done this.

You know what an experienced negotiator would have done? Not given Marleau a 35+ contract with an NMC, an extra year, and 1 million more than anyone else was offering him. All this for a forward that never broke 50 points with us that we never needed to sign.

We needed to sign the RFAs, they are our team. Marleau was a massive unforced error.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You know what an experienced negotiator would have done? Not given Marleau a 35+ contract with an NMC, an extra year, and 1 million more than anyone else was offering him. All this for a forward that never broke 50 points with us that we never needed to sign.

We needed to sign the RFAs, they are our team. Marleau was a massive unforced error.

I know he brought the Leafs respect with his experience at the time he was hired, but with all that what was Lou Lamoriello thinking giving Marleau that contract?

 

[cesareborgia]

You know what an experienced negotiator would have done? Not given Marleau a 35+ contract with an NMC, an extra year, and 1 million more than anyone else was offering him. All this for a forward that never broke 50 points with us that we never needed to sign.

We needed to sign the RFAs, they are our team. Marleau was a massive unforced error.

I'm neither defending Lou, nor am I calling him a good negotiator. Lou is not a part of the equation here, though I do believe he would have likely done a better job negotiating with our RFAs for the simple reason that it's impossible to do a worse job than the one Dubas did. After the Nylander fiasco I don't believe any of the players or agents had respect for the Doobs. They realized they could take him to the cleaners.

 

[Merrrlin]

I am no such thing. You don't need to be an expert to see what's going on. All you need is an average IQ and a basic understanding of dealmaking.

When a deal is made, you look at market value, and you look at comparables. If you've paid above market value, or more than what the comparables are getting, you've made a bad deal. You are then by definition a bad negotiatior.

This a the 2nd me I’ve a seen you talk about IQ on here. I’m starting to get a definite vibe coming from you...

Reading your posts on this subject is like listening to someone talk about how the weather is cold so the climate isn’t changing.

It’s ignoring the fact that many, many people have spent their entire lives in that field, doing the work, becoming professionals. Imagine having some hick from rural New Brunswick lecture people on this scenario...they lack the depth of knowledge and understanding to even competently analyze the scenario let alone provide a criticism.

That’s how this looks to me. Anyone with a high IQ would understand

 

[Martin Skoula]

I know he brought the Leafs respect with his experience at the time he was hired, but with all that what was Lou Lamoriello thinking giving Marleau that contract?

As if there wasn't another respectable vet that wouldn't have to be bought out at 6.25 million of dead cap.

All Marleau taught our young guys was how to demand a million more than you're worth and play with no intensity to avoid injuries.

 

[Havoc]

I am no such thing. You don't need to be an expert to see what's going on. All you need is an average IQ and a basic understanding of dealmaking.

When a deal is made, you look at market value, and you look at comparables. If you've paid above market value, or more than what the comparables are getting, you've made a bad deal. You are then by definition a bad negotiatior.

Convincing someone Marleau is a comparable for Matthews, Marner and Nylander isn't negotiating. That's serious black magic.

 

[cesareborgia]

This a the 2nd me I’ve a seen you talk about IQ on here. I’m starting to get a definite vibe coming from you...

Reading your posts on this subject is like listening to someone talk about how the weather is cold so the climate isn’t changing.

It’s ignoring the fact that many, many people have spent their entire lives in that field, doing the work, becoming professionals. Imagine having some hick from rural New Brunswick lecture people on this scenario...they lack the depth of knowledge and understanding to even competently analyze the scenario let alone provide a criticism.

That’s how this looks to me. Anyone with a high IQ would understand

Ladies and gentlemen, a strawman.

Time to go to bed, bud.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Convincing someone Marleau is a comparable for Matthews, Marner and Nylander isn't negotiating. That's serious black magic.

Our senior partners should accept a massive pay cut because we spent 40% of our salary budget on the janitor. A real negotiator would use his million dollar janitor to his advantage. This is real logic that someone's trying to use.

 

[LeafsNation75]

As if there wasn't another respectable vet that wouldn't have to be bought out at 6.25 million of dead cap.

All Marleau taught our young guys was how to demand a million more than you're worth and play with no intensity to avoid injuries.

Who knows what would have happened if Marleau didn't sign in Toronto but I do remember Bob McKenzie or Pierre LeBrun saying the Marleau signing meant they couldn't have re-signed James van Riemsdyk, who was set to become a UFA 1 year later. Although that was the same year they signed Tavares, so maybe JVR would not have been re-signed anyway.

 

[cesareborgia]

Convincing someone Marleau is a comparable for Matthews, Marner and Nylander isn't negotiating. That's serious black magic.

I've said no such thing. A comparable would be, say, Rantanen at 9.25.

 

[Merrrlin]

Ladies and gentleman, a strawman.

Time to go to bed, bud.

A straw man is as valid as your argument: I think Dubas could have made this situation in my head reality, therefor I will state this as a fact and judge him accordingly.

You have no basis for any of it, nor do you have insider knowledge of the situation. You bring nothing really to the table in your criticisms except assumptions and an unwarranted voice of authority.

 

[I am Canadian]

I might not be a GM myself, however when I hear something like Marleau admitting he would most likely not play the 3rd year of his contract, I can see why Shanahan made Dubas the GM instead of renewing Lamoriello's contract to continue in that role.

It boils my blood to see if this is actually a real quote - There is absolutely no reason to not sign marleau to 9M x 2 if they have the cap space. Who the f*** cares what the media thinks? This mistake cost the Leafs a first round draft pick: the last three were Liljegren, Sandin & Robertson* (not even a 1st). Those are the type of guys we could be adding in 2020 but Lamoriello f***ed up. There are so many people willing to shit on Dubas for paying our stars but they ignore Marleau & Zaitsev contracts.

I'm happy to have Dubas as a GM, he is an honorable guy. Traded Leivo, stuck around with Mikheyev, called Justin Brazeau personally etc. Let's hope that Mikheyev will remember that when it comes to negotiation time.

 

[cesareborgia]

A straw man is as valid as your argument: I think Dubas could have made this situation in my head reality, therefor I will state this as a fact and judge him accordingly.

You have no basis for any of it, nor do you have insider knowledge of the situation. You bring nothing really to the table in your criticisms except assumptions and an unwarranted voice of authority.

Actually, I do. It's called market value and comparables.

I really think it's time to hit the hay, bud. Happy New Year.

 

[Merrrlin]

I've said no such thing. A comparable would be, say, Rantanen at 9.25.

So wait, your problem with Dubas is that he may have overpaid his 2nd best player by 1-1.5mm per year?

If that’s your biggest knock on him, you would think you would be a lot happier overall.

You would think some of the older fans would have learned patience by now. We’re not even through Kyles second full season...

 

[LeafsNation75]

It boils my blood to see if this is actually a real quote - There is absolutely no reason to not sign marleau to 9M x 2 if they have the cap space. Who the **** cares what the media thinks? This mistake cost the Leafs a first round draft pick: the last three were Liljegren, Sandin & Robertson* (not even a 1st). Those are the type of guys we could be adding in 2020 but Lamoriello ****ed up. There are so many people willing to **** on Dubas for paying our stars but they ignore Marleau & Zaitsev contracts.

I'm happy to have Dubas as a GM, he is an honorable guy. Traded Leivo, stuck around with Mikheyev, called Justin Brazeau personally etc. Let's hope that Mikheyev will remember that when it comes to negotiation time.

Since Marleau was so desperate to get back to San Jose he should have just re-signed with them when they offered him that 2 year contract in July 2017. Of course Lou should have also only offered 2 years at the most if he was so desperate to want him.

 

[Havoc]

I've said no such thing. A comparable would be, say, Rantanen at 9.25.

You're right. You did not say that. There was a gap in posts from the time you said "Marleau as leverage" and "comparables".

Either way....I just don't see it. Using Marleau as leverage is still more black magic than negotiating in my opinion.

To each their own. Happy new year to you too.

 

[I am Canadian]

Since Marleau was so desperate to get back to San Jose he should have just re-signed with them when they offered him that 2 year contract in July 2017. Of course Lou should have also only offered 2 years at the most if he was so desperate to want him.

I just can't justify why they would offer the third year? Lou knew he wouldn't be around to take the blame? It's ridiculous. Marleau is not worth a 2020 1st round draft pick.

 

[I am Canadian]

$1.5 mil is quite significant in an $80 mil 23 man/team league.

Btw are you 12?

I mean sure it's significant but find a playoff team where you can't find a player who is overpaid by 1.5-2m. I'd rather it be Marner than David Backes.

 

[cesareborgia]

You're right. You did not say that. There was a gap in posts from the time you said "Marleau as leverage" and "comparables".

Either way....I just don't see it. Using Marleau as leverage is still more black magic than negotiating in my opinion.

To each their own. Happy new year to you too.

Just my opinion. Lou is no fool, using the contract as leverage may have been his intention. Whatever the case, I think we can both agree that Dubas could have done a much better job in those negotiations.

Safe and prosperous 2020 my friend.