Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[LeafsNation75]

I mean sure it's significant but find a playoff team where you can't find a player who is overpaid by 1.5-2m. I'd rather it be Marner than David Backes.

What about Kevin Hayes and his 7 year/$7.14 million AAV contract compared to Nylander and his $6.9 million AAV.

 

[Merrrlin]

$1.5 mil is quite significant in an $80 mil cap 23 man/team league.

Btw are you 12?

It’s less significant than the more common gm blunder - Overpaying grinders.

I wish he got them cheaper as well but I’m not going to create a fantasy scenario in my head and act like it was a realistic option. No one wanted to pay 60 year old Marleau 6 million to play 4th line minutes. It was always going to cost a lot to get rid of that 3rd year. Doesn’t take a high IQ to understand why it had to be done. Between Marner and Matthews, there was no way to make up that 6 million unless you are offering 2-3 year bridge deals, which we thankfully didn’t.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I just can't justify why they would offer the third year? Lou knew he wouldn't be around to take the blame? It's ridiculous. Marleau is not worth a 2020 1st round draft pick.

Marleau wasn't worth 3 years and a $6.25 million AAV contract to start with.

 

[Martin Skoula]

It’s less significant than the more common gm blunder - Overpaying grinders.

I wish he got them cheaper as well but I’m not going to create a fantasy scenario in my head and act like it was a realistic option. No one wanted to pay 60 year old Marleau 6 million to play 4th line minutes. It was always going to cost a lot to get rid of that 3rd year. Doesn’t take a high IQ to understand why it had to be done. Between Marner and Matthews, there was no way to make up that 6 million unless you are offering 2-3 year bridge deals, which we thankfully didn’t.

We could have moved Marleau for free if he wasn't a giant baby and threw a temper tantrum about not wanting to play outside of San Jose.

When he asked for a trade "anywhere out west" at first, all the speculation was that we'd get a minor contract dump back, or worst case scenario have to retain a million for a year. We would have gotten positive value for him as we would have moved him after his bonus was paid out and some no-name team would have gotten a 6.25 cap hit for 3-something in real dollars.

Then he demanded to only go to San Jose or a team that would buy him out so he could go to San Jose. We had to pay a 1st because the team taking him on had to:

1) Pay his bonus in cash the next week (since the buyout deadline was before his bonus was paid)
2) Buy him out and set 6.25 million dollars on fire
3) Take on a 6.25 million dollar cap hit for a full year

All this to go to a team that didn't even want him back until they got a bunch of injuries and went on a losing streak. The man is the definition of selfish.

 

[LeafsNation75]

We could have moved Marleau for free if he wasn't a giant baby and threw a temper tantrum about not wanting to play outside of San Jose.

When he asked for a trade "anywhere out west" at first, all the speculation was that we'd get a minor contract dump back, or worst case scenario have to retain a million for a year. We would have gotten positive value for him as we would have moved him after his bonus was paid out and some no-name team would have gotten a 6.25 cap hit for 3-something in real dollars.

Then he demanded to only go to San Jose or a team that would buy him out so he could go to San Jose. We had to pay a 1st because the team taking him on had to:

1) Pay his bonus in cash the next week (since the buyout deadline was before his bonus was paid)
2) Buy him out and set 6.25 million dollars on fire
3) Take on a 6.25 million dollar cap hit for a full year

All this to go to a team that didn't even want him back until they got a bunch of injuries and went on a losing streak. The man is the definition of selfish.

Wasn't it reported that the Ducks, Kings and Coyotes were possibly interested in trading for him? It wasn't San Jose but very close to it since his family was moving back there no matter what.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I wonder how some people would react if Dubas did what most GM's do, sign someone like Backes to a long-term contract that quickly turned into an overpayment of millions. Given the reaction to much lesser mistakes, I'm guessing he'd have to get a bodyguard.

 

[Funk21]

His biggest blunder is not getting the big three together the summer of Nylander’s contract negotiation. This is how I would have played it out:

Shanny and Dubas walk into a room with the three players. Shanny puts his SC ring on the table. Dubas speaks we aren’t and can’t go above this dollar amount for your three if we want to have a team that competes night in and night out for a SC. We will give you players all 90% plus in signing bonus which makes these contracts buyout and lockout proof but by doing so you have to come down in cost or give us extra term. Here is a Certified Financial Planner to explain the Present value of money Vs Future value. This is what we have worked out as each of your comparable player contracts. So you three look to your teammate to your left and look your teammate to your right and ask yourself is playing together, making millions and having a team that has this level of talent competing for a SC year in and year out what’s important to you or is making a few extra hundred grand at the expense of being one of the best teams in the NHL? Hopefully we can come to an understanding because we want all three of you to be TML lifers. Make it happen.

That being said overpayment on your stars to the tune of 2-3 million is not the worst thing in the world. His biggest issues have been dealing with some of the awful contracts he was saddled with from Lou. Zaitsev was IMO masterfully done. Do I like Ceci, no but to get away from Zaitsev and not have to retain was a deal and a half. Marleau cost them a 1st. Everybody knew the third year was going to kill the TML, we did what we had to do to keep the big three together.

He has signed some very good contracts in Kap, AJ, Kerfoot and now Holl. He also brought Mikheyev and fired Babcock. The Babcock firing should have been done last spring IMO but a rookie GM firing the highest paid coach in the NHL is no small feat. Hopefully he has learned a thing or two regarding negotiations to carry forward to signing the next round of players.

 

[egd27]

Tell that to the Dubas fanboy we were replying too.

Hopefully he read it

 

[A1LeafNation]

His biggest blunder is not getting the big three together the summer of Nylander’s contract negotiation. This is how I would have played it out:

Shanny and Dubas walk into a room with the three players. Shanny puts his SC ring on the table. Dubas speaks we aren’t and can’t go above this dollar amount for your three if we want to have a team that competes night in and night out for a SC. We will give you players all 90% plus in signing bonus which makes these contracts buyout and lockout proof but by doing so you have to come down in cost or give us extra term. Here is a Certified Financial Planner to explain the Present value of money Vs Future value. This is what we have worked out as each of your comparable player contracts. So you three look to your teammate to your left and look your teammate to your right and ask yourself is playing together, making millions and having a team that has this level of talent competing for a SC year in and year out what’s important to you or is making a few extra hundred grand at the expense of being one of the best teams in the NHL? Hopefully we can come to an understanding because we want all three of you to be TML lifers. Make it happen.

That being said overpayment on your stars to the tune of 2-3 million is not the worst thing in the world. His biggest issues have been dealing with some of the awful contracts he was saddled with from Lou. Zaitsev was IMO masterfully done. Do I like Ceci, no but to get away from Zaitsev and not have to retain was a deal and a half. Marleau cost them a 1st. Everybody knew the third year was going to kill the TML, we did what we had to do to keep the big three together.

He has signed some very good contracts in Kap, AJ, Kerfoot and now Holl. He also brought Mikheyev and fired Babcock. The Babcock firing should have been done last spring IMO but a rookie GM firing the highest paid coach in the NHL is no small feat. Hopefully he has learned a thing or two regarding negotiations to carry forward to signing the next round of players.

Maybe the board wasn't comfortable firing him after 4 years into an 8 year 50m deal.

Maybe Shanny wanted to ride out the hard part of the schedule with Babs so to put Keefe in a favourable position.

I'm sure all details were discussed in length when making this type of decision.

It's possible the Leafs are better off the way they went about it then acting prematurely.

 

[I am Canadian]

His biggest blunder is not getting the big three together the summer of Nylander’s contract negotiation. This is how I would have played it out:

Shanny and Dubas walk into a room with the three players. Shanny puts his SC ring on the table. Dubas speaks we aren’t and can’t go above this dollar amount for your three if we want to have a team that competes night in and night out for a SC. We will give you players all 90% plus in signing bonus which makes these contracts buyout and lockout proof but by doing so you have to come down in cost or give us extra term. Here is a Certified Financial Planner to explain the Present value of money Vs Future value. This is what we have worked out as each of your comparable player contracts. So you three look to your teammate to your left and look your teammate to your right and ask yourself is playing together, making millions and having a team that has this level of talent competing for a SC year in and year out what’s important to you or is making a few extra hundred grand at the expense of being one of the best teams in the NHL? Hopefully we can come to an understanding because we want all three of you to be TML lifers. Make it happen.

That being said overpayment on your stars to the tune of 2-3 million is not the worst thing in the world. His biggest issues have been dealing with some of the awful contracts he was saddled with from Lou. Zaitsev was IMO masterfully done. Do I like Ceci, no but to get away from Zaitsev and not have to retain was a deal and a half. Marleau cost them a 1st. Everybody knew the third year was going to kill the TML, we did what we had to do to keep the big three together.

He has signed some very good contracts in Kap, AJ, Kerfoot and now Holl. He also brought Mikheyev and fired Babcock. The Babcock firing should have been done last spring IMO but a rookie GM firing the highest paid coach in the NHL is no small feat. Hopefully he has learned a thing or two regarding negotiations to carry forward to signing the next round of players.

How do you know they didn't try this? Marner & Matthews had no reason to sign early when they believe in themselves and improve every season. Agents probably told them to wait.

 

[Funk21]

How do you know they didn't try this? Marner & Matthews had no reason to sign early when they believe in themselves and improve every season. Agents probably told them to wait.

I don’t but considering we are the only team in the NHL that pays these massive signing bonus ladened contract (I know we aren’t the only ones) but it’s usually reserved for McJesus types I would have said this will be off the table if we can’t come to some sort of agreement.

This is a powerful leverage tool and one that has not been used very well by this management staff. If players want signing bonus ladened contracts guess what AAV goes down.

 

[The CyNick]

His biggest blunder is not getting the big three together the summer of Nylander’s contract negotiation. This is how I would have played it out:

Shanny and Dubas walk into a room with the three players. Shanny puts his SC ring on the table. Dubas speaks we aren’t and can’t go above this dollar amount for your three if we want to have a team that competes night in and night out for a SC. We will give you players all 90% plus in signing bonus which makes these contracts buyout and lockout proof but by doing so you have to come down in cost or give us extra term. Here is a Certified Financial Planner to explain the Present value of money Vs Future value. This is what we have worked out as each of your comparable player contracts. So you three look to your teammate to your left and look your teammate to your right and ask yourself is playing together, making millions and having a team that has this level of talent competing for a SC year in and year out what’s important to you or is making a few extra hundred grand at the expense of being one of the best teams in the NHL? Hopefully we can come to an understanding because we want all three of you to be TML lifers. Make it happen.

This type of scenario is not realistic and not professional.

Imagine a CEO pulling in a group of executives and saying "look to your left and your right..." as it pertains to compensation. It would be considered an HR violation. Everyone negotiates their own deals, simple as that.

The mistake was Shanny thinking a rookie GM should be the one to negotiate the three most important contracts in franchise history. The GM got exposed by veteran agents, anyone could see that would be the outcome. Cost us cap flexibility and a first round pick to boot.

The scenario you laid out would also be ironic given that Shanny won Cups when teams spent whatever they want and nobody had to take paycuts. On top of that the GM forced Shanny's hand and it cost us a HOF GM in Lou and an elite level scout in Hunter. Regardless if you think the current GM is better than Lou, its hard to argue that it would be better having all those minds guiding the ship. The GMs demands forced out the other two. So having him in a room talking about how important it is to sacrifice for the greater good is hilariously disingenuous.

 

[Big Muddy]

Johnsson value
Kapanen Value. > contracts
Holl. Value
Mikheyev Value
Spezza. Value
Nylander ha on this one that was percieved as bad before a minute was played in it.

Every contract below our top 4 because i will add on the Nylander deal because some don’t like it still. (They are dwindling before embarrassment) are value deals.

Sandin is a steal
Robertson is a steal
Mikheyev is a steal
Holl is a outright travesty that The dirtbag would not play him

kerfoot,Barrie and Muzzin were ok deals. Moving Marleau and Zaitsev was somewhat costly but they actually got takers by Dubas.

Very nice body of work and i am only going off the topmof my head in this post. Might have missed something?????? Ohhhhh ohhh Yeah Tavares ha yeah he signed that guy ha

You'd expect ELCs (& prospects) to be a "steal" (low $ contracts) would you not? Mikeheyev was new to the NHL, and Spezza is a vet in the twilight (cusp) of his career. These are also deals that you'd absolutely expect to be low dollar (or "value" to use your terminology) contracts.

I'm just adding context here which you'd hope would be important.

 

[Ciao]

@Funk21 -- now you made me agree with@The CyNick!

That should tell you how far fetched are your imaginary contract-negotiation strategies!

 

[Funk21]

This type of scenario is not realistic and not professional.

Imagine a CEO pulling in a group of executives and saying "look to your left and your right..." as it pertains to compensation. It would be considered an HR violation. Everyone negotiates their own deals, simple as that.

The mistake was Shanny thinking a rookie GM should be the one to negotiate the three most important contracts in franchise history. The GM got exposed by veteran agents, anyone could see that would be the outcome. Cost us cap flexibility and a first round pick to boot.

The scenario you laid out would also be ironic given that Shanny won Cups when teams spent whatever they want and nobody had to take paycuts. On top of that the GM forced Shanny's hand and it cost us a HOF GM in Lou and an elite level scout in Hunter. Regardless if you think the current GM is better than Lou, its hard to argue that it would be better having all those minds guiding the ship. The GMs demands forced out the other two. So having him in a room talking about how important it is to sacrifice for the greater good is hilariously disingenuous.

HR violation? This is a professional sports team and it’s the job of the GM to sign the players for as cheap as possible and it’s the players agent to try and get their clients as much as possible. Period. You play with the rules you have. There is a hard cap so you take it from there. What did MacKinnon and Rantanen state publicly that they would be willing to sign for less if it meant they could be winners.

Lou did what in NJ for the past 10 years once he lost Brodeur, absolutely nothing. He saddled us with the 3rd year of Marleau, he handed out the Zaitsev contract and when Shanny decision came down to look to a more innovative GM his pride got in the way and he left for what was a mess in NYI because he would have full authority.

How exactly have Hunter’s picks other than the most obvious ones pan out?

2015
We could have had the 24 overall....
We could have drafted Aho or Carlo at 34, Dermott is a fine player but just saying

2016
Selects Korskov with 31
We could have had Kyrou, DeBrincat, or Hart

Not too mention every big hulking D man he has selected has amount to nothing.

Guy is so overrated, if he was so good why wouldn’t any team hire him as their GM or Scout?

 

[LeafsNation75]

2016
Selects Korskov with 31
We could have had Kyrou, DeBrincat, or Hart

I honestly think if Dubas was the GM in 2016 and running the draft they select DeBrincat with the 31st pick.

The Korskov selection was weird given how he went undrafted in the previous 2 drafts if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Big Muddy]

We could have moved Marleau for free if he wasn't a giant baby and threw a temper tantrum about not wanting to play outside of San Jose.

When he asked for a trade "anywhere out west" at first, all the speculation was that we'd get a minor contract dump back, or worst case scenario have to retain a million for a year. We would have gotten positive value for him as we would have moved him after his bonus was paid out and some no-name team would have gotten a 6.25 cap hit for 3-something in real dollars.

.

I think this is the theory that the Yotes would take him? If the trade rumors at the time had any validity, even the Coyotes brass wanted something substantial for Marleau. Don't think there was ever a realistic scenario where we'd be able just retain $1 m, or take a $1.5 - $2 m contract back. I'd think Arizona management would be well aware that they'd be at the maximum cap level the following year.

Not sure how all this bickering helps us. Whether it was Lou or Kyle, we are where we are right now as a result of the cumulative efforts of both of these guys. Spitting hairs and the blame game doesn't really help us much.

 

[meefer]

One thing I find funny is the lack of respect Dubas receives for creating a team that has lost significant games due to injury: Tavares, Marner, Hyman, Johnsson, Moore and now Mykhayev, and the team is now in 2nd place in its division. Granted, most of those games occurred during the Babcock period and we know how Keefe has changed things for the better, but still we've managed to score a heck of a lot of goals as a team missing many of its key players for extended time. That's impressive.

 

[LeafsNation75]

 

[weems]

That's awesome to hear regarding Dubas spending so much time.

Mikheyev is a damn good hockey player and was really starting to flourish.

Hopefully he recovers well and is a big part of this team moving forward.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I don’t but considering we are the only team in the NHL that pays these massive signing bonus ladened contract (I know we aren’t the only ones) but it’s usually reserved for McJesus types I would have said this will be off the table if we can’t come to some sort of agreement.

This is a powerful leverage tool and one that has not been used very well by this management staff. If players want signing bonus ladened contracts guess what AAV goes down.

It's not a leverage tool because it's good for the team.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That's awesome to hear regarding Dubas spending so much time.

Mikheyev is a damn good hockey player and was really starting to flourish.

Hopefully he recovers well and is a big part of this team moving forward.

You never want to make light of a situation like that because it's something we wished never happened. However I wonder how many other players see that and it might convince them to possibly sign in Toronto one day, knowing how great Dubas is for doing something like that.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

came to post this. man that just got this g.m a lot of brownie points with players after this. what a great gesture by a guy that probably had lots planned for the holiday season

 

[as Pure as Evil]

You never want to make light of a situation like that because it's something we wished never happened. However I wonder how many other players see that and it might convince them to possibly sign in Toronto one day, knowing how great Dubas is for doing something like that.

if its anything like how the world works that information will be going viral very soon

 

[LeafsNation75]

if its anything like how the world works that information will be going viral very soon

Let's hope it does.