Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[IPS]

How about 0 points in the last 5 games for Barrie? People saying Babcock held him back is ridiculous, and the hot start when Keefe took over went cold real fast.

He unquestionably did, this is proven by both watching the games and looking at the stats.

Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.

 

[Mess]

Dubas record comparison.

2018-19 : @ 31 games record 21-9-1 = 43 points [100 point finish]
2019-20: @ 31 games record 14-13-4 = 32 points [on pace 84 points]

Leafs are currently 11 points below their last year mark at this point after 31 games played.

 

[zeke]

This is ridiculous Zeke.

I normally don't take the time to do this but your BS is getting annoying so here we go. This started when I responded to this post of yours:

And I said that it makes no sense to just ignore these 6 losses, this is what I said.

And I pointed out that I was no more ignoring those 6 losses than you were ignoring Keefe's small sample when you pointed out it might be a blip.

Then you went on some wild rant about me accusing you of ignoring stuff, when clearly not only hadn't I accused of that, but actually you had accused me of that.

 

[egd27]

He unquestionably did, this is proven by both watching the games and looking at the stats.

Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.

I have a question........which stats prove this?

He's averaged 0.19 more shots per game under Keefe
He's averaged .05 fewer assists per game under Keefe
He's averaged 50 secs per game less under Keefe
He's averaged 2 fewer shifts per game under Keefe

None of these seem to be significantly different, so which stats highlight him being held back before Keefe?

 

[Menzinger]

You mean losing the asset as in we'd have lost Marner had we not met his demands? That's extreme and highly unlikely. I don't think we lose Marner (our biggest mistake IMO) if we hold steady at a lower price.

I still don't see much difference. If you're overpaying by say 4 million, it doesn't matter much who you're paying it to. The situations/issues aren't exactly the same depending on who's overpaid but in both cases you have 4 million less to spend on the rest of the roster. What matters most is I'd say the term. Dumping one year of Marleau was costly enough, can you imagine if he was on the books for another 3-4 years? Our overpayments are to our stars who almost certainly will not be moved so stars or not, we'll be handicapped by those overpayments for years to come. If it's a consoling thought that we're overpaying good players at least then great, I don't find any consolation there myself as in the end the result is the same and few million more in cap space would help a lot.

I guess where we differ is i dont view any of current contracts as being "handicapping".

One can make a case the roster still needs changes but there ARE other parts that can be moved without touching the big three + Tavares ect.

 

[Menzinger]

w/Babs: ES 19:21, 0.55p60, 53.7cf%, 45.1xgf% -- PP 2:08, 2.61p60
w/Keefe: ES 19:01, 1.62p60, 57.5cf%, 64.0xgf% - PP 1:42, 4.42p60

Incredible difference.

I just think its odd that people can look at Barrie - a guy whose been a top pair to top 4 guy level his entire career and argue hes secretly been garbage the entire time lol.

 

[zeke]

What are you going on about? We have plenty of first liners. It's other things that we're lacking (backup goalie being the most pressing issue) and the reason it's hard to see how we're going to fix that is because we're overpaying our first liners and thus have no cap space to patch our holes..

going back to this discussion now...

for me I look at the roster right now and the thing that's limiting our capspace to fix a hole like backup goalies isn't the money on our top line, but actually the $4.5m we're spending on what is probably our #6 dman, Cody Ceci. That's the money that's wasted on a guy we likely wouldn't miss at all if he was gone (and whom we might already have upgrades on ready to play in the NHL right now). That is the money we're burning right now.

 

[zeke]

I just think its odd that people can look at Barrie - a guy whose been a top pair to top 4 guy level his entire career and argue hes secretly been garbage the entire time lol.

the guy was literally by far and away Colorado's #1 dman last year, especially in the playoffs.

but now he's a bottom pair liability.

 

[zeke]

I guess where we differ is i dont view any of current contracts as being "handicapping".

One can make a case the roster still needs changes but there ARE other parts that can be moved without touching the big three + Tavares ect.

as i just mentioned...the only contract i see as wasting capspace right now is our #6 dman's, not our top liners.

 

[Martin Skoula]

as i just mentioned...the only contract i see as wasting capspace right now is our #6 dman's, not our top liners.

We can probably get more cap-efficient on Johnsson/Kapanen in-house, possibly Kerfoot as well if Engvall can handle 3C.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And I pointed out that I was no more ignoring those 6 losses than you were ignoring Keefe's small sample when you pointed out it might be a blip.

Then you went on some wild rant about me accusing you of ignoring stuff, when clearly not only hadn't I accused of that, but actually you had accused me of that.

I never did that. Stop lying please.

I guess where we differ is i dont view any of current contracts as being "handicapping".

One can make a case the roster still needs changes but there ARE other parts that can be moved without touching the big three + Tavares ect.

There are always "parts that can be moved". Wouldn't it be better though if we had our stars signed at 3 million less in total and could spend that money without being forced to move anyone?

 

[DarkKnight]

Barrie was absolute trash for the first part of the season, worst D man by a country mile... some of that does lie at Babcock’s feet, but his inability to win any board battles or clear the net, that shit wasn’t coaching. Offensively, he’s always been dynamic and Keefe has given him free reign, played to his strength. Keefe is also sheltering him defensively, which was talked about extensively on Sportnet yesterday, basically what I’ve said, Keefe is putting him in a position to succeed, while recognizing his weaknesses. Some of you guys are black and white with everything, fact is Barrie has been “just okay” and apart from a nice uptick, that’s about it.

Everything Kyle does is amazing, we get it. Also beyond boring to discuss anything, already know the answer before a question. What’s the point? It’s just partisanship.

I support how Keefe is using him, particularly with Reilly, an offensive tandem...Muzzin and Ceci doing the grunt work in our end. Work with what you got.

 

[zeke]

I never did that. Stop lying please.

Yes, neither of us did, as I said.

You were the only one accusing anyone of ignoring anything.

There are always "parts that can be moved". Wouldn't it be better though if we had our stars signed at 3 million less in total and could spend that money without being forced to move anyone?

Of course.

But, like I said, I would much prefer that the over payments be for elite talent.

 

[zeke]

I support how Keefe is using him, particularly with Reilly, an offensive tandem...Muzzin and Ceci doing the grunt work in our end. Work with what you got.

Actually Ceci is getting slightly easier zone usage under Keefe, and likely much easier qoc now that he's down on the bottom pair.

Barrie is getting more favorable zone usage now his qoc is still top pair tough.

What's most impressive is that the Muzzin-Holl pairing is getting much tougher usage than they were before, and are absolutely dominating in it.

We're not talking enough about Holl in general, tbh. The guy is playing really, really well.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And I pointed out that I was no more ignoring those 6 losses than you were ignoring Keefe's small sample when you pointed out it might be a blip.

I never did that. Stop lying please.

Yes, neither of us did, as I said.

LOL wut?

 

[Joey Hoser]

I think Barrie sucked because of Barrie. How did Morgan Reilly manage to put up 71 points with Babcock anyway?

By getting top PP time and a healthy dose of offensive zone starts. You know, the things Babcock didn't give Barrie.

Keefe moved Barrie into those situations and he scored a goal in each of the first three games like that. Do you think that was a coincidence and situations don't matter?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

the guy was literally by far and away Colorado's #1 dman last year, especially in the playoffs.

but now he's a bottom pair liability.

I think you need to go watch the second round playoff games of barrie like i did this summer. He was an offensive game changer for sure. But offensively he outscored his defensive errors. and I am ok with that. it is how he has to play to be effective. But you never see him out in any game with Avs tied or winning late in 3rd.

 

[cesareborgia]

going back to this discussion now...

for me I look at the roster right now and the thing that's limiting our capspace to fix a hole like backup goalies isn't the money on our top line, but actually the $4.5m we're spending on what is probably our #6 dman, Cody Ceci. That's the money that's wasted on a guy we likely wouldn't miss at all if he was gone (and whom we might already have upgrades on ready to play in the NHL right now). That is the money we're burning right now.

Lol, oh yeah. "The problem isn't the millions of dollars we overpayed our RFAs, but the one million dollars we overpayed a defender"

*Facepalm*

 

[Teeder Keon]

Lol, oh yeah. "The problem isn't the millions of dollars we overpayed our RFAs, but the one million dollars we overpayed a defender"

*Facepalm*

Million shmillion

 

[Teeder Keon]

Actually Ceci is getting slightly easier zone usage under Keefe, and likely much easier qoc now that he's down on the bottom pair.

Barrie is getting more favorable zone usage now his qoc is still top pair tough.

What's most impressive is that the Muzzin-Holl pairing is getting much tougher usage than they were before, and are absolutely dominating in it.

We're not talking enough about Holl in general, tbh. The guy is playing really, really well.

I can easily C Cc being moved ..
I hope my eyesight is 20/20

 

[Joey Hoser]

Lol, oh yeah. "The problem isn't the millions of dollars we overpayed our RFAs, but the one million dollars we overpayed a defender"

*Facepalm*

How much do you think the RFA's are overpaid by?

 

[zeke]

Lol, oh yeah. "The problem isn't the millions of dollars we overpayed our RFAs, but the one million dollars we overpayed a defender"

*Facepalm*

Yes.

When we literally wouldn't miss Ceci if he was gone, then the 3.5m we're overpaying definitely hurts more than the couple mil were overpaying Marner, who we certainly would miss.

 

[zeke]

I can easily C Cc being moved ..
I hope my eyesight is 20/20

At this point, thanks to Holl's resurgence, given that it looks like Ceci is flat out our #6 dman right now....yeah, he's clearly the guy to move.

 

[zeke]

LOL wut?

Read the whole sentence.

 

[Myopic]

the guy was literally by far and away Colorado's #1 dman last year, especially in the playoffs.

but now he's a bottom pair liability.

To be fair, Barrie is bottom 5-6 defensively. He's one of the worst defenders in the league without question. He needs to have 70 point seasons to just break even for his brutal defensive play. What a horrible trade by Corsi-boy for a one year rental of crap.