Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[The Podium]

Not when you don't have any cap space so you can't afford to add even the cheapest one. And again, we don't need to find 1st liners cheap, we have 1st liners, nobody is saying they need to be cheap and even if we had paid our stars a million each less (for arguments sake), they still wouldn't be cheap.

The Leafs have cap space on reserve by having an abundance of talent. Kapanen, Johnsson and Kerfoot for example arent core pieces that can be traded to upgrade elsewhere. Cody Ceci is a pending UFA with a 4.5 mill cap hit and can easily be offloaded. There are cap options available, the question becomes are the right targets available?

For example:

Engvall - Matthews - Nylander
Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Mikheyev - Spezza - Moore
Petan - Goat - Timashov

Rielly - Barrie
Muzzin - Holl
Dermott - Liljegren

Andersen

Yes, worse, but not signficantly so and there is now 14.5 million in cap space to play with to upgrade the roster

 

[Gary Nylund]

Honestly that's not a fair way to assess this argument. There is no fair way no to do it. Best to leave it alone.
IF barrie had played a full season under Babcock and another full season under Keefe, then an argument could be formulated in this manor.
Imo even trying to analyze barriers style of play is unfair as he was on a new team with Babcock and by the time Keefe got here he was more familiar with the team and thus more comfortable.

All I'm saying is let's wait before looking at the numbers. Maybe there's no fair way but waiting until the end of the season is more fair than looking at the numbers now. And by numbers, I don't mean just points, I mean all the other lovely numbers we have to look at like Zeke's favourite expected goals.

You're right though I guess in that it might be unfair to Babcock as Barrie didn't have time to adjust here perhaps. I'm not so sure as I really hate the way Babs handled him but you're right I can't prove it. I don't like Babs though so if this method isn't completely fair to him, I can live with it.

Yes I have a bias here so feel free to disregard all my opinions on the subject of Babcock. Even if I happen to get it right every now and then.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The Leafs have cap space on reserve by having an abundance of talent. Kapanen, Johnsson and Kerfoot for example arent core pieces that can be traded to upgrade elsewhere. Cody Ceci is a pending UFA with a 4.5 mill cap hit and can easily be offloaded. There are cap options available, the question becomes are the right targets available?

By that logic, no team ever has cap issues as players can always be traded. I'm not convinced.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

McElhinney has a 3-3-2 reccord with a 3.62GAA and 0.898Save%, even not "messing with a good thing" would have us in a similar position this season with a tighter cap crunch.

Winners win, losers lose. Backup goalies need to give you 500 record. If you get more like we did then AMAZING. Hutch always loses. Until we find one we have to play Freddy every game. Nothing against Hutch an amazing family guy and really well liked. But this is pro hockey and it is all about winning.

 

[ACC1224]

McElhinney has a 3-3-2 reccord with a 3.62GAA and 0.898Save%, even not "messing with a good thing" would have us in a similar position this season with a tighter cap crunch.

Numbers aren't transferrable.

 

[The Podium]

By that logic, no team ever has cap issues as players can always be traded. I'm not convinced.

No, by that logic the Leafs expendable pieces are NOT the pieces that are overpaid.

Do you think Tampa can offload Killorn, Gourde, Johnson, or Palat all >5mill as easily as the Leafs can offload Johnsson, Kapanen or Kerfoot all <4mill?

 

[saltming]

How does everyone feel about the other things Dubas has set up: farm teams (restocking the cupboards), development teams (adding belfry and the sports science department) and the stats department?
We seem to evaluate him only on his cap management, but these other parts affect cap management and team performance.
I am impressed that we can call up guys like Engvall and moore and they drop in and are effective. This is very important to team success and also the GM's responsibility and also something that is more under his control.

 

[The Podium]

Numbers aren't transferrable.

Oh I'm sorry, I didnt realize that going to a better team and getting worse results isnt a factor in evaluation...

Winners win, losers lose. Backup goalies need to give you 500 record. If you get more like we did then AMAZING. Hutch always loses. Until we find one we have to play Freddy every game. Nothing against Hutch an amazing family guy and really well liked. But this is pro hockey and it is all about winning.

Agreed, Hutch isnt the answer, but people still moaning about McBackup is tiresome when he wouldnt have been either

 

[saltming]

All I'm saying is let's wait before looking at the numbers. Maybe there's no fair way but waiting until the end of the season is more fair than looking at the numbers now. And by numbers, I don't mean just points, I mean all the other lovely numbers we have to look at like Zeke's favourite expected goals.

You're right though I guess in that it might be unfair to Babcock as Barrie didn't have time to adjust here perhaps. I'm not so sure as I really hate the way Babs handled him but you're right I can't prove it. I don't like Babs though so if this method isn't completely fair to him, I can live with it.

Yes I have a bias here so feel free to disregard all my opinions on the subject of Babcock. Even if I happen to get it right every now and then.

For the record I think Barrie's skillset will be better utilized in Keefes system and will make the team tougher to stop offensively.
Defensively? I'm still waiting to see how it looks when they get it. Imo the way it's starting to take shape bodes well for a unit that can skate.
Fingers crossed.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No, by that logic the Leafs expendable pieces are the pieces that are overpaid.

Who's overpaid? I would also say that if players are overpaid, then they're not easy to unload at all (Marleau being a prime example).

Do you think Tampa can offload Killorn, Gourde, Johnson, or Palat all >5mill as easily as the Leafs can offload Johnsson, Kapanen or Kerfoot all <4mill?

I have no idea about TB. As far as offloading our guys, I wouldn't want to give them away and making trades is always hard, especially with so many teams up against the cap.

How does everyone feel about the other things Dubas has set up: farm teams (restocking the cupboards), development teams (adding belfry and the sports science department) and the stats department?
We seem to evaluate him only on his cap management, but these other parts affect cap management and team performance.
I am impressed that we can call up guys like Engvall and moore and they drop in and are effective. This is very important to team success and also the GM's responsibility and also something that is more under his control.

I don't know that much about what Dubas has done differently in that regard. Haven't we always spent money everywhere we can? Is Dubas just spending it more wisely? If so then that's good for sure, everything helps.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Winners win, losers lose. Backup goalies need to give you 500 record. If you get more like we did then AMAZING. Hutch always loses. Until we find one we have to play Freddy every game. Nothing against Hutch an amazing family guy and really well liked. But this is pro hockey and it is all about winning.

Not completely fair. We played so badly in front of him in some of those games that Andersen on his best day would still have lost. Hutch hasn't been good but let's not act like he's the only one to blame for every game we lost with him in net.

 

[saltming]

Who's overpaid? I would also say that if players are overpaid, then they're not easy to unload at all (Marleau being a prime example).



I have no idea about TB. As far as offloading our guys, I wouldn't want to give them away and making trades is always hard, especially with so many teams up against the cap.



I don't know that much about what Dubas has done differently in that regard. Haven't we always spent money everywhere we can? Is Dubas just spending it more wisely? If so then that's good for sure, everything helps.

Well our prospect pool went from pathetic to good if not really good. Dubas drafted well but also signed a lot of free wallet ufas that are helping.
We did not have a sports science department or a statistics department before dubas. We of course had development coaches before, but darryl belfry and his team are considered the best and to have them in the payroll is amazing.
Crosby, Stamkos and a lot of superstars go to and praise belfry and his team for giving them that extra edge needed, so bringing that here is pretty darn good

 

[The Podium]

Who's overpaid? I would also say that if players are overpaid, then they're not easy to unload at all (Marleau being a prime example).

Sorry that was meant to read NOT overpaid

I have no idea about TB. As far as offloading our guys, I wouldn't want to give them away and making trades is always hard, especially with so many teams up against the cap.

That wasnt meant to be an argument for unloading for cap purposes, rather those are the expendable pieces that can be dealt for upgrades elsewhere.

 

[forecheck]

Babcock wanted Barrie to "re-invent" his game. One of the most overrated coaches of all time

You cant ignore his win record- very unlikable individual -no doubt - but he has had success which earned him the biggest contract in Hockey Coaching history and Buffalo would have paid him more ...

I was never a big fan - but he will Coach again !

 

[ShaneFalco]

You cant ignore his win record- very unlikable individual -no doubt - but he has had success which earned him the biggest contract in Hockey Coaching history and Buffalo would have paid him more ...

I was never a big fan - but he will Coach again !

Yeah have to give him credit for his wins. I think maybe he WAS a good coach but hasn't adapted ...... at all

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well our prospect pool went from pathetic to good if not really good. Dubas drafted well but also signed a lot of free wallet ufas that are helping.
We did not have a sports science department or a statistics department before dubas. We of course had development coaches before, but darryl belfry and his team are considered the best and to have them in the payroll is amazing.
Crosby, Stamkos and a lot of superstars go to and praise belfry and his team for giving them that extra edge needed, so bringing that here is pretty darn good

That all sounds good. I'm not sure how much credit to give him for drafting though as I don't think he does the scouting. Did he hire new scouts? Maybe he does a better job processing what they tell him or he does something else differently, I really don't know. It's probably too early to draw conclusions about drafting as well and say what you want about Hunter, he apparently was the guy who insisted on Marner and boy oh boy, choosing Hanifin would have been a terrible mistake.

 

[ACC1224]

Oh I'm sorry, I didnt realize that going to a better team and getting worse results isnt a factor in evaluation...

No worries, we all make mistakes.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Not completely fair. We played so badly in front of him in some of those games that Andersen on his best day would still have lost. Hutch hasn't been good but let's not act like he's the only one to blame for every game we lost with him in net.

I get your point but Hutch always found a way to lose us a game with Jets when we outplayed other teams with a softie or two, a total disaster last spring when we needed him with the Marlies with 2 more softies in most important game of playoffs and then again this year. Again an amazing guy who finds ways to lose all the time. He quite frankly does not have enough athletic ability but he is a solid goalie for positioning technique. He always looks like a goalie.

 

[saltming]

That all sounds good. I'm not sure how much credit to give him for drafting though as I don't think he does the scouting. Did he hire new scouts? Maybe he does a better job processing what they tell him or he does something else differently, I really don't know. It's probably too early to draw conclusions about drafting as well and say what you want about Hunter, he apparently was the guy who insisted on Marner and boy oh boy, choosing Hanifin would have been a terrible mistake.

I believe the GM give the scouts criteria to look for and then the GM filters through it all.
Not sure about the hiring. I'm pretty sure it was a combination of hunter and dubas that hired the scouts.
As for that draft I was never a hanifin fan. I wanted werenski then either marner or barzal equally.

 

[egd27]

McElhinney has a 3-3-2 reccord with a 3.62GAA and 0.898Save%, even not "messing with a good thing" would have us in a similar position this season with a tighter cap crunch.

If Hutch had a 3.62 GAA we'd theoretically have 3 wins as well.

 

[zeke]

Nope - I'm quite happy thank you and having the best day I've had in a while actually.
Getting players isn't easy no matter how cheap they are when you have no cap space.
Getting elite talent for cheap isn't a requirement, saying it needs to be done is a false narrative.

Again, filling out the bottom of the roster for cheap is a much much easier proposition than filling out the top of your roster for bargains.

You already admitted to ignoring.
Re. the bolded - you're going in circles here. I never said anything like this and when challenged on it you've been unable to show that I did. Repeating things that exist only in you imagination is very weak sauce sir.
The only one pouting around here is you.

Lighten up Zeke. Everyone's wrong from time time, even you and there's no shame in admitting it.

this is so weird.

You accused me of "ignoring" a sample. I pointed out I did the same thing you did. Then you accused me of putting words in your mouth, which you had actually done and I hadn't.

and now you're accusing me of being wrong about something. but I'm not sure exactly what.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Again, filling out the bottom of the roster for cheap is a much much easier proposition than filling out the top of your roster for bargains.

Again, nobody ever said that the top of the roster has to be filled out with bargains. Well, besides you.

this is so weird.

You accused me of "ignoring" a sample. I pointed out I did the same thing you did. Then you accused me of putting words in your mouth, which you had actually done and I hadn't.

But I never did what you did. Keep saying it all you like, it doesn't change that simple fact.

and now you're accusing me of being wrong about something. but I'm not sure exactly what.

You're the one accusing me of telling people to ignore our record under Keefe or something and as I've told you several times, I've done no such thing.

You can't find me posting anything of the sort because it never happened. Put up or shut up Zeke, this is getting old. And if you've lost the thread here then go back and catch up I guess, I'm tired of repeating myself.

 

[zeke]

Again, nobody ever said that the top of the roster has to be filled out with bargains. Well, besides you.

you're really all over the place today.

I said it's better to overpay the top of the roster than the bottom of the roster. You said there is no difference. I explained why there was a difference.

Now you are putting other weird arguments into my mouth.

But I never did what you did. Keep saying it all you like, it doesn't change that simple fact.

You're the one accusing me of telling people to ignore our record under Keefe or something and as I've told you several times, I've done no such thing.

You can't find me posting anything of the sort because it never happened. Put up or shut up Zeke, this is getting old. And if you've lost the thread here then go back and catch up I guess, I'm tired of repeating myself.

so weird.

YOU accused ME of "ignoring" a certain sample, even though I didn't.

I never accused you of anything. In fact I did the opposite of accusing you of ignoring anything - I pointed out that both of us had referred to a small sample of games as potentially being blips, and that NEITHER OF US WERE SAYING TO IGNORE THAT SMALL SAMPLE.

 

[Matthews34]

Again, filling out the bottom of the roster for cheap is a much much easier proposition than filling out the top of your roster for bargains.




this is so weird.

You accused me of "ignoring" a sample. I pointed out I did the same thing you did. Then you accused me of putting words in your mouth, which you had actually done and I hadn't.

and now you're accusing me of being wrong about something. but I'm not sure exactly what.

Zeke you're always spewing these fancy stats but the only stat that matters is Ws vs Ls. The cup isn't awarded on percentage of bla bla bla....

 

[Gary Nylund]

YOU accused ME of "ignoring" a certain sample, even though I didn't.

I never accused you of anything. In fact I did the opposite of accusing you of ignoring anything - I pointed out that both of us had referred to a small sample of games as potentially being blips, and that NEITHER OF US WERE SAYING TO IGNORE THAT SMALL SAMPLE.

This is ridiculous Zeke.

I normally don't take the time to do this but your BS is getting annoying so here we go. This started when I responded to this post of yours:

People forget that we were on a 100+ pace before the 6gm losing streak and are at a 100+ pace since.

And I said that it makes no sense to just ignore these 6 losses, this is what I said.

So what. A 6 game losing streak is enormous. Take away 6 losses and most of the league is probably on a 100 point pace.

Then you started the spin with this nonsense:

Nobody said to ignore anything.

What we are looking at is how reasonable it is to hope for the team to play at a 100+pt pace the rest of the season. And I'd say it's not far fetched all.

When of course you did as I pointed out in this post:

You were the one who said look at our pace before and after that streak. That's inoring it.

Then you finally admitted you were asking people to ignore our losing streak which is fine. What is not fine is that you accused me of doing the same thing:

No more than you were telling us to ignore Keefe's 8gm sample.

I called you on this BS:

So back to you Zeke. You said I wanted to ignore Keefe's 8 game sample when I have done no such thing. I'll accept your apology anytime you're man enough to offer me one.

You of course had no answer because it never happened.

Then you admitted it again:

Yes, I said to ignore something exactly as much you said to ignore something.

Cliff notes:
You asked people to ignore something, then admitted it, then denied it. You've also been obfuscating by bringing in things not relevant to this particular discussion such as overpaying stars vs role players etc. Now you're accusing me of being all over the place. This is called irony.

I never asked people to ignore anything. You can't show where I did because it never happened. It's not nice to make up this sort of nonsense, I thought you were better than this.

And now I have better things to do, have a nice day Zeke.