Kyle Dubas Discussion (continued) the 2021 edition

[hotpaws]

He couldn't if he wanted to. All his overpayments to vets prevented him from offering him any term or dollars. Should make the next contract interesting, though given Lou's age, he probably doesn't care.

sure he could have , could have just kept dumping player until he had enough cap space to give him 11m like the Dube

you talking about the vets that got them to the conference finals last year ? lol

 

[deprw]

so your saying we were willing to eat 1yr dumps on Phaneuf but not Kessel ?

and just to remind you , Dubas tried and couldn't move Dion

You do realize that Dubas might have not mandate to take that kind of short term financial burden as interim GM. That move was also needed right circumstances in the way that there is team where you can unload Phaneuf and bad contracts you can take back. You can't just send Phaneuf somewhere with bag of cash. He had no trade clause in his contract.

In Kessel case there was only one team where you could trade him, so it is bit different to negotiate from that standpoint. I see our Kessel to Pens trade as win for us and we still have Amirov (+Hallander).

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

sure he could have , could have just kept dumping player until he had enough cap space to give him 11m like the Dube

you talking about the vets that got them to the conference finals last year ? lol

Who do you think is going to take those vets off his hands at those contracts? The answer is basically no one. Remember Marleau? Zaitsev? Now add in a COVID flat cap. Either they all retire or get illnesses or he's hooped.

That team without Trotz doesn't even come close to sniffing the playoffs. They likely weren't making it last year.

So yes, those vets (on those contracts).

It might make some sense if he was bridging them towards the arrival of a bunch of young studs. Unfortunately his prospect pool is ranked anywhere from bottom half to bottom third of the league. Just had a draft considered the deepest in some time. His first pick? In the 90's. Lou is a very short term GM. He has a team that can perform to a certain level with the right coaching but that will never go the distance because they are missing some cream and it is nowhere in sight. People will speak of Lou and HOF but that's almost entirely built off things he did almost 20+ years ago in a completely different landscape. Over the past 18 years he's won 8 playoff rounds. 5 of those came in 2 years, which of course means over the other 16 he won 3 rounds. Here we sit after 2 years jumping off cliffs......

 

[Pookie]

@Rants Mulliniks

Who hired Trotz?

honestly, what’s so hard about saying that Lou has done a good job... inheriting an 80 point team and turning it into a conference finalist in 2 seasons?

 

[sparxx87]

The only reason he was able to sign Barzal was a retirement. It's almost inconceivable to not have a single star signed and be that tight to the cap.

He wasn’t going to go above his number. The mark of a good negotiator.

And that’s pure ignorance. How often do you actually watch the team? They literally have a roster full of players who star in their roles. That deep and balanced attack has been a big part of their success.

You might not agree with the construction but the conference finals was their reality next year. Making the final 4 is a very good season with a very good group, even if ignorant fans of other teams on the internet don’t agree.

He couldn't if he wanted to. All his overpayments to vets prevented him from offering him any term or dollars. Should make the next contract interesting, though given Lou's age, he probably doesn't care.

No, the Boychuk and Ladd contracts gave him little to no flexibility. He didn’t sign any of these contracts but rather than giving up a first round pick to dump money like some, he was able to work around which included moving a defenseman they deemed expendable to replenish assets.

Bi-product of success in a salary cap world is that successful teams can’t keep all their players. He had to move salary after a conference finals appearance.... Others had to do so after losing in the play in round and not even making the 16 team NHL playoffs.

 

[ToneDog]

You do realize that Dubas might have not mandate to take that kind of short term financial burden as interim GM. That move was also needed right circumstances in the way that there is team where you can unload Phaneuf and bad contracts you can take back. You can't just send Phaneuf somewhere with bag of cash. He had no trade clause in his contract.

In Kessel case there was only one team where you could trade him, so it is bit different to negotiate from that standpoint. I see our Kessel to Pens trade as win for us and we still have Amirov (+Hallander).

You mean Kappy and yes it looks like a win. Even if Amirov and Hallandier don't amount to much, Leaf fans were glad to see Rutherford take the full cap hit.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

@Rants Mulliniks

Who hired Trotz?

honestly, what’s so hard about saying that Lou has done a good job... inheriting an 80 point team and turning it into a conference finalist in 2 seasons?

Lou did. He also had basically the only job opening available. That aside, the entirety of his job includes a lot more than coaching. Look at the whole picture and honestly evaluate it. Coaching aside, how does the organization's long term picture look?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Love these "if they didn't have" arguments.

If the Leafs didn't have sticks they wouldn't make the playoffs.

You could feel free to elaborate on what you feel he's done so well? Go through all the aspects involved in being a GM (drafting, signings, etc.) and get back to me. He had a team pacing for close to a 10 point drop in the standings and no playoffs, one of the lower end prospect pools, no picks until 90+ in a strong draft, zero cap room with no stars signed (until a retirement). Again, feel free to enlighten me. Basically the one thing that went well was going from worst defense to near the top. Where does that stem from?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

He wasn’t going to go above his number. The mark of a good negotiator.

And that’s pure ignorance. How often do you actually watch the team? They literally have a roster full of players who star in their roles. That deep and balanced attack has been a big part of their success.

You might not agree with the construction but the conference finals was their reality next year. Making the final 4 is a very good season with a very good group, even if ignorant fans of other teams on the internet don’t agree.

He couldn't if he wanted to. Boxed himself into a corner through contracts basically no other GM will touch. Now he's got his only star on a very short term.

No, the Boychuk and Ladd contracts gave him little to no flexibility. He didn’t sign any of these contracts but rather than giving up a first round pick to dump money like some, he was able to work around which included moving a defenseman they deemed expendable to replenish assets.

Bi-product of success in a salary cap world is that successful teams can’t keep all their players. He had to move salary after a conference finals appearance.... Others had to do so after losing in the play in round and not even making the 16 team NHL playoffs.

What first round picks?

 

[All Mod Cons]

You could feel free to elaborate on what you feel he's done so well? Go through all the aspects involved in being a GM (drafting, signings, etc.) and get back to me. He had a team pacing for close to a 10 point drop in the standings and no playoffs, one of the lower end prospect pools, no picks until 90+ in a strong draft, zero cap room with no stars signed (until a retirement). Again, feel free to enlighten me. Basically the one thing that went well was going from worst defense to near the top. Where does that stem from?

By being a good GM? Making decisions to improve the team? Hiring the right people? Making roster moves? Making sure the coaches implement systems and ways to play?

I'm not sure what else there is to say?

 

[sparxx87]

He couldn't if he wanted to. Boxed himself into a corner through contracts basically no other GM will touch. Now he's got his only star on a very short term.



What first round picks?

He was boxed in due to $11M + in bad contracts with Ladd and Boychuk that he didn’t sign. Rather than trading a first round pick to dump the money, he resigned the players he deemed important and traded Toews to replenish assets. I’m sure they would have liked to keep him but they’ve got a pretty solid blueline and he needed money for Barzal.

Now, he’s buying time for the Seattle expansion draft.

They’re built differently. They rely on depth and balance. Barzal-Nelson-Pageau-Cizikas is one of the best and most versatile centre positions in the league, and does have that game breaking talent at the top. Their wing position is filled with good veteran players with various skill sets who just know how to play, and a coach that knows how to use them. They combine that with a solid and balanced blueline, a good but not great goalie and that’s a very good team. It may not have the flash the Leafs do, but it’s proven to be effective winning games at the most important time of year.

This isn’t basketball where you can rely almost solely on your stars. Elite talent is needed, but the teams that win in the playoffs have a roster full of players who can star in their role.

The Islanders have that.

 

[Dekes For Days]

inheriting an 80 point team and turning it into a conference finalist in 2 seasons?

Except the Islanders weren't an "80 point team". They were a team that happened to get 80 points in one bad year, after a 3-year period where they averaged almost 100 points a season.

It's actually quite funny, because most of the 1m+ AAV players that Lou targeted and acquired since joining the Islanders have been forwards, and their offense is bad and has been getting worse every year. Their defense has improved, but primarily due to players that Lou had nothing to do with.

Here are the 1m+ UFA skaters that Lou brought in to the team:

-Filppula (2.75m/1 year/NMC) - Played one mediocre season in the bottom-six and then left.
-Brassard (1.2m/1 year) - Played one mediocre season in the bottom-six and then left.
-Kovar (2.0m/1 year) - Contract terminated before playing a game.
-Komarov (3.0m/4 years/M-NTC) - Signed after being a healthy scratch on his previous team. Currently a healthy scratch and cap dump less than halfway through the deal, signed until he's 35.
-Hickey (2.5m/4 years) - Played less than half of a season as a #6/7, and has been a healthy scratch and cap dump ever since.
-Sbisa (1.5m/1 year) - Their #8 defenseman, played a total of 9 games.

And the 1m+ skaters he brought in through trade:

-Martin (2.5m/2 years) - 14th highest forward TOI/GP (41+ GP) on the team during those years. Re-signed for 1.5m/4 years, until he's 35.
-Pageau (Rental) - Cost 1st, 2nd, conditional 3rd to acquire. Re-signed to a 5.0m/6 year contract into his mid-30s before even playing a game.
-Greene (Rental) - Cost 2nd round pick. Their #6 defenseman, re-signed for 2.7m/1 year, at age 38.

The longest term he gave an RFA was Johnston (4 years), and he's largely been a healthy scratch since. He re-signed Lee, Eberle, Nelson, and Pageau to expensive long-term contracts into their mid-30s with NTCs, and as a result, was forced to bridge Barzal, Beauvillier, and Pulock post-ELC, and trade away one of their better defensemen in Toews, even with one of their bigger contracts retiring. Nelson and Pulock were walked straight to UFA in their 3rd contracts.

Pretty much the only positive thing Lou did was bring respectability to the goaltending, and even there, he's made some questionable moves. He got Lehner, who was amazing, only to let him leave and sign a worse, older goalie to the same cap hit it would have cost to keep Lehner. He let Sorokin cancel out his ELC, and then signed him to a 2m/1 year contract before playing a single game in the NHL.

How anybody can think we'd be better off with Lou is beyond me. His team has gotten back to their previous level largely despite him, not because of him, and he's sacrificed the future to boost the present, despite no hope of actually winning a cup. People here would have had a fit if Dubas made any of the moves that Lou has made.

 

[Zybalto]

One thing I know is that the Isles were one of the teams Covid saved from a humiliating crash out of the playoffs. They had lost 7 in a row and 11 of their last 13 including an embarrassing loss to last years Sens and the 18 wheeler was headed over the cliff.

I'm interested how the team fares without their best weapon (1,2 top end goalie punch) this year. Varly is off to a great start but when they had to play the kid, the team got down early and just gave up on the poor rookie.

Greiss is looking good with the wings (.930 save %) too.

 

[Pookie]

One thing I know is that the Isles were one of the teams Covid saved from a humiliating crash out of the playoffs. They had lost 7 in a row and 11 of their last 13 including an embarrassing loss to last years Sens and the 18 wheeler was headed over the cliff.

I'm interested how the team fares without their best weapon (1,2 top end goalie punch) this year. Varly is off to a great start but when they had to play the kid, the team got down early and just gave up on the poor rookie.

Greiss is looking good with the wings (.930 save %) too.

is that the one thing you know?

that the Islanders achievement is good luck and our performance was bad luck?

riveting.

 

[Zybalto]

is that the one thing you know?

that the Islanders achievement is good luck and our performance was bad luck?

riveting.

Yea, they were crashing out of the playoffs and the Covid break certainly helped them. It allowed them to reset and get their bearings.

Looking at an even bigger sample, from January 1st to the end of season, the Islanders were in absolute free fall from where they had been as one of the better teams in the league and thats still while they were benefiting from the 8th best team save% in the NHL during the new calandar year.

Their record from Jan. 1st to end of season:

10-13-7 (.450)

League rank: 28th in the NHL

....and they had just lost seven in a row at the time of the stoppage.

That really doesn't look like a team thats gonna turn it around any time soon and I'm positive if you asked them, they were happy to get the stoppage.

They were debating whether or not the team was even gonna make the playoffs and tearing things down on the Isles board.

10 wins in 30 games down the stretch? If that was the Leafs, even with all the injuries and bottom 10 goaltending, the pitchforks would certainly be out. Hell, they were out already despite the injury riddled Leafs being a FAR better team down the stretch (not including goaltending)

 

[Pookie]

Yea, they were crashing out of the playoffs and the Covid break certainly helped them. It allowed them to reset and get their bearings.

Looking at an even bigger sample, from January 1st to the end of season, the Islanders were in absolute free fall from where they had been as one of the better teams in the league and thats still while they were benefiting from the 8th best team save% in the NHL during the new calandar year.

Their record from Jan. 1st to end of season:

10-13-7 (.450)

League rank: 28th in the NHL

....and they had just lost seven in a row at the time of the stoppage.

That really doesn't look like a team thats gonna turn it around any time soon and I'm positive if you asked them, they were happy to get the stoppage.

They were debating whether or not the team was even gonna make the playoffs and tearing things down on the Isles board.

10 wins in 30 games down the stretch? If that was the Leafs, even with all the injuries and bottom 10 goaltending, the pitchforks would certainly be out. Hell, they were out already despite the injury riddled Leafs being a FAR better team down the stretch (not including goaltending)

Despite that crash... they had one less point than us with 2 games in hand?

how does that suggest we were any good?

 

[Zybalto]

Despite that crash... they had one less point than us with 2 games in hand?

how does that suggest we were any good?

The Islanders were th 4th best team in hockey up to December 31st. Remember the 18 wheelers of the Leafs past? That was the Islanders last year.

The Leafs meanwhile had to dig themselves out of the early season Babcock era hole, and simultaneously deal with the worst injury issues in forever and bad goaltending, both starting and backup. There were certainly ups and down during the last few weeks but big wins over Tampa (twice), Dallas and Florida (to name a few) showed the character of the team.

The Isles two wins in their final 13 games came against bottom feeders. Detroit and another team I can't recall.

 

[Zybalto]

New theory:

Babcock put a curse on the Isles after he got fired, blaming Lou for not fixing the Marner mess properly:

Before Babcock fired:

Isles rank: 1st in the NHL

After Babcock fired:

Isles rank: 23rd in the NHL

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

Draft the small and skilled players and then sign the free agents for grit. Not a bad thing to do. I just hope he somehow goes aggressive and drafts a good pedigree goalie in 2nd round. I can't believe we missed out on Hart for Korshkov.

 

[The Podium]

Yea, they were crashing out of the playoffs and the Covid break certainly helped them. It allowed them to reset and get their bearings.

Looking at an even bigger sample, from January 1st to the end of season, the Islanders were in absolute free fall from where they had been as one of the better teams in the league and thats still while they were benefiting from the 8th best team save% in the NHL during the new calandar year.

Their record from Jan. 1st to end of season:

10-13-7 (.450)

League rank: 28th in the NHL

....and they had just lost seven in a row at the time of the stoppage.

That really doesn't look like a team thats gonna turn it around any time soon and I'm positive if you asked them, they were happy to get the stoppage.

They were debating whether or not the team was even gonna make the playoffs and tearing things down on the Isles board.

10 wins in 30 games down the stretch? If that was the Leafs, even with all the injuries and bottom 10 goaltending, the pitchforks would certainly be out. Hell, they were out already despite the injury riddled Leafs being a FAR better team down the stretch (not including goaltending)

The Isles had like a 17 game point streak early on that carried them. Outside of that crazy streak they were mediocre-to-bad.

Can’t fault them for having an incredible stretch like that, but at the same time they can’t expect to replicate that again.

Goaltending is a lot weaker this season so let’s see how well they do.

I don’t exact them to be bad, and I actually don’t hate their roster despite what Pookie may think. I’m just not a fan of the short-sighted moves Lou made or their long term cap situation.

 

[Pookie]

The Islanders were th 4th best team in hockey up to December 31st. Remember the 18 wheelers of the Leafs past? That was the Islanders last year.

The Leafs meanwhile had to dig themselves out of the early season Babcock era hole, and simultaneously deal with the worst injury issues in forever and bad goaltending, both starting and backup. There were certainly ups and down during the last few weeks but big wins over Tampa (twice), Dallas and Florida (to name a few) showed the character of the team.

the Leafs dug themselves a hole in the first 23 games and then jumped back in it during the last 23.

The Isles two wins in their final 13 games came against bottom feeders. Detroit and another team I can't recall.

Now do the playoffs.

Islanders went 11-5 in the first 3 rounds before losing to the Cup champs in the Conference Final.

Your turn....

 

[Wafflewhipper]

the Leafs dug themselves a hole in the first 23 games and then jumped back in it during the last 23.


Now do the playoffs.

Islanders went 11-5 in the first 3 rounds before losing to the Cup champs in the Conference Final.

Your turn....

You are holding on to a unraveling rope. There are two cup champions in our losses as a young team. Boston twice,Washington at their peak and a really elite defensive team in Columbus. All these team needed the full distance to eliminate us except Washington and that was the most fun series of them all with overtime aplenty.
The Islanders played really solid. They deserved that success. Hopefully this team can fashion a game together that is as stingy when protecting a lead. It’s always been team defense being put to the wayside for blocks of minutes that cost us.
Mocking the team doesn’t pinpoint the issues the Leafs have had. Team defense is the priority for all the young guys now and Keefe blatantly expects them to pull theier weight defensively.
Keefe actually seems to demand it as the cornerstone this year. Lets not live in the past, them series losses were disappointing ( everyone of them).

 

[Pookie]

The Isles had like a 17 game point streak early on that carried them. Outside of that crazy streak they were mediocre-to-bad.

Can’t fault them for having an incredible stretch like that, but at the same time they can’t expect to replicate that again.

Goaltending is a lot weaker this season so let’s see how well they do.

I don’t exact them to be bad, and I actually don’t hate their roster despite what Pookie may think. I’m just not a fan of the short-sighted moves Lou made or their long term cap situation.

I have no idea if you hate their roster.

what I find quite amusing is the desire by a small group here to try to tear down Lou and build up Dubas.
.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Despite that crash... they had one less point than us with 2 games in hand?

how does that suggest we were any good?

We really weren’t that good last season. Looking like a build up of solid play this year though.

 

[Pookie]

We really weren’t that good last season. Looking like a build up of solid play this year though.

hopefully