Kyle Dubas Discussion (continued) the 2021 edition

[TMLegend]

That's one example over decades of winners that have demonstrated that the opposite is true: past playoff success is the best predictor of future playoff success and eventual Cup wins.

I agree.

The Leafs aren't going from perennial 1st round losers to Cup winners overnight. That's ridiculous.

Probably not.

If (and that's a MAJOR if) it ever happens with this core, it will be because they've won some rounds and come close once or twice.

Most likely.

This is basically the easiest year they'll ever have to win a playoff round and if they do, that's what literally everyone will point to as evidence that the program is working - true or not.

I agree. That being said, if they don't have any postseason success, it'll likely be the last season this core group is together.

 

[4thline]

That's what all the detractors said here before the start of last year. Then they went even further in the playoffs than the year before and Lou won GM of the year.

Then people said he got them into cap hell, won't be able to re-sign Barzal and ruined everything. That also didn't happen and he set them up wonderfully without losing anyone of significance this off-season.

So yeah, the doomsday prognostications really haven't amounted to anything.

Probably best people just stop entirely.

All Lou's done is prove everyone wrong since joining the Islanders.

It wasn't that he wouldn't be able to re-sign Barzal, it was that he wouldn't be able to keep all three of Barzal Pulock Toews and would have to bridge to even keep two. That happened.

He's fencing for time and mortgaging their future in the process. Pelech/Beauvillier/Sorokin all up for raises, with the only major money coming off the books being a key player in Cizikas.

We literally have a decade of cap era record to look at with the devils, and it's not pretty.

 

[Pookie]

Lou would not have budged on those big 3 contracts. However, it's a moot point since any cap savings would've been spent on extending Martin and Komarov until 2025.

true. But we might have kept the assets needed to rent Clifford.

 

[Menzinger]

Lou’s work on the Island doesn’t give me any reason to think he would have managed the Leafs’ cap any better TBH

I suspect there would be a lot more dead weight contracts on the books.

It mirrors his time with thr Leafs pretty similarly. His best moves there were bringing stability to an organization in disarray. Butnwhen it came to the "building phase hes focusing in on expensive vet depth players, opting to trade rfas and sign other younger talent to bridge deals.

Its the reason why I wasn't hot on him being the teams longer term manager.

 

[Bomber0104]

It mirrors his time with thr Leafs pretty similarly. His best moves there were bringing stability to an organization in disarray. Butnwhen it came to the "building phase hes focusing in on expensive vet depth players, opting to trade rfas and sign other younger talent to bridge deals.

Its the reason why I wasn't hot on him being the teams longer term manager.

What?

The two biggest and most consequential RFA's were Kadri and Rielly and they were both signed to very team-friendly 6-year deals, especially given their draft pedigree and performance up until that point.

 

[hotpaws]

What?

The two biggest and most consequential RFA's were Kadri and Rielly and they were both signed to very team-friendly 6-year deals, especially given their draft pedigree and performance up until that point.

he also dumped Phaneuf when Dubie couldn't without retaining unlike how Dubie had to when he traded Kessel

 

[Menzinger]

What?

The two biggest and most consequential RFA's were Kadri and Rielly and they were both signed to very team-friendly 6-year deals, especially given their draft pedigree and performance up until that point.

Two assets he inherited, and signed to good valued contracts (that were comfortably in their comparables range).

Other then that, his only long term additions were Matthews (consensus #1 overall pick) and Andersen.

Lou deserves credit where credits due, but no need to exaggerate his accomplishments.

 

[rumman]

Lou could have stayed as an advisor- he decided to leave.

wonder why he left then, perhaps he knew Dubas wasn't up to the task?

 

[4thline]

he also dumped Phaneuf when Dubie couldn't without retaining unlike how Dubie had to when he traded Kessel

I'm sure we could have avoided retention on Kessel if we were willing to eat 12+ million in shit contracts upfront

 

[Bomber0104]

Two assets he inherited, and signed to good valued contracts (that were comfortably in their comparables range).

Other then that, his only long term additions were Matthews (consensus #1 overall pick) and Andersen.

Lou deserves credit where credits due, but no need to exaggerate his accomplishments.

No one's exaggerating anything.

All I was wondering is who these mythical RFA's were on the Leafs that he traded away and bridged that you're talking about?

Here's your quote:

Butnwhen it came to the "building phase hes focusing in on expensive vet depth players, opting to trade rfas and sign other younger talent to bridge deals.

Seems kind of made up to be honest, or at the very least heavily exaggerated.

 

[hotpaws]

I'm sure we could have avoided retention on Kessel if we were willing to eat 12+ million in shit contracts upfront

so your saying we were willing to eat 1yr dumps on Phaneuf but not Kessel ?

and just to remind you , Dubas tried and couldn't move Dion

 

[Menzinger]

No one's exaggerating anything.

All I was wondering is who these mythical RFA's were on the Leafs that he traded away and bridged that you're talking about?

Seems kind of made up to be honest.

I never suggested they were 100% identical just similar valuation patterns. We see the guys he liked to give bigger money or longer term contracts to - Martin, Marleau. Komarov likely would have been next if he had stayed on.

 

[Leaf Fans]

wonder why he left then, perhaps he knew Dubas wasn't up to the task?

He could have thought that. There are many other possibilities though. Perhaps he was intrigued at being the president, or a myriad of other reasons.

 

[The Podium]

That's what all the detractors said here before the start of last year. Then they went even further in the playoffs than the year before and Lou won GM of the year.

Then people said he got them into cap hell, won't be able to re-sign Barzal and ruined everything. That also didn't happen and he set them up wonderfully without losing anyone of significance this off-season.

So yeah, the doomsday prognostications really haven't amounted to anything.

Probably best people just stop entirely.

All Lou's done is prove everyone wrong since joining the Islanders.

No one said he couldn’t re-sign Barzal. They said he couldn’t re-sign his big 3 RFAs and/or sign Barzal long term. He proved both of those to be true. They also said he’ll be in cap he’ll again next year. That is true.

Lou doesn’t care about the future because he won’t make it to the future. He keeps making short term gambles which pay off.... in the short term. He walked Pulock straight to UFA, walked Barzal straight to 1 year arbitration, traded an abundance of picks and prospects, etc.

You make those moves for a handful or runs. It worked year 1, may not even work year 2 and gets ugly by year 3.

 

[The Podium]

They lost Devon Toews? Oh no! Irreplaceable! Just ignored that Noah Dobson guy!
The walked Pulock to UFA? Oh no, but what does that mean for all three of Matthews, Marner, and Nylander!?
Traded an abundance of picks and prospects, etc? Like two consecutive first round picks?

Literally every criticism you're making here is also equally applicable to Dubas and the Leafs but without the luxury of already being a successful team...

I didn’t ignore Dobson? How is he relevant though? Let’s sacrifice Morgan Rielly because we have Sandin who isn’t at that level yet!

They all signed 5+ year contracts... not bridges

Traded one for Lous f*** up and re-acquired an equivalent pick by astutely making an early deal for Kapanen before the market tanked. The other was dealt for Muzzin which no one would reverse.

Dubas brought more picks in than out and also hit on a lot of picks that are tracking well to the NHL. Lou didn’t even make a top 90 pick this draft.

You have every right to support Lou. But stop making ridiculous unsupported claims.

 

[Bomber0104]

I never suggested they were 100% identical just similar valuation patterns. We see the guys he liked to give bigger money or longer term contracts to - Martin, Marleau. Komarov likely would have been next if he had stayed on.

Kadri (#2C), Rielly (#1D), and Andersen (#1G) were all signed to far bigger contracts than those three.

Seems like he prioritized all three key positions with long-term deals as opposed to the short term depth deals for Martin, Marleau, and Komarov.

And again, who are these RFA's that Lou traded away and bridged that you mentioned before?

I'm looking at the old Leafs rosters and I can't seem to find any.

 

[egd27]

It wasn't that he wouldn't be able to re-sign Barzal, it was that he wouldn't be able to keep all three of Barzal Pulock Toews and would have to bridge to even keep two. That happened.

He's fencing for time and mortgaging their future in the process. Pelech/Beauvillier/Sorokin all up for raises, with the only major money coming off the books being a key player in Cizikas.

We literally have a decade of cap era record to look at with the devils, and it's not pretty.

But we're going to ignore that Dubas is going to have find around 6 new minimum wagers to add every year in order to keep compliant. Once anyone gets good enough to be a $3M player, they are going to have to go.
Quality depth is going to be a major issue, and (so far) our core can't get it done by themselves.

 

[The Podium]

But we're going to ignore that Dubas is going to have find around 6 new minimum wagers to add every year in order to keep compliant. Once anyone gets good enough to be a $3M player, they are going to have to go.
Quality depth is going to be a major issue, and (so far) our core can't get it done by themselves.

With Andersen’s deal up and the current goalie market being saturated and trending towards duos, we likely can make due with a 2 million discount there alone. Sandin/Lily replace Holl and you get another mil.

3 million made without blinking.

Add another 1.2 mill the following year when Kessels retention is up

 

[4thline]

so your saying we were willing to eat 1yr dumps on Phaneuf but not Kessel ?

Moreso saying that in both cases we ate a significant amount of cash, likely in the manner that the other team required, and your initial post could have just easily read "he also moved Kessel without taking back money, unlike Lou who couldn't move phaneuf without eating an equal amount in cap dumps.

Both deals had limited suitors, both made us provide financial incentive

 

[The Podium]

Moreso saying that in both cases we ate a significant amount of cash, likely in the manner that the other team required, and your initial post could have just easily read "he also moved Kessel without taking back money, unlike Lou who couldn't move phaneuf without eating an equal amount in cap dumps.

Both deals had limited suitors, both made us provide financial incentive

How dare you think logically and use facts

 

[hotpaws]

No one said he couldn’t re-sign Barzal. They said he couldn’t re-sign his big 3 RFAs and/or sign Barzal long term. He proved both of those to be true. They also said he’ll be in cap he’ll again next year. That is true.

Lou doesn’t care about the future because he won’t make it to the future. He keeps making short term gambles which pay off.... in the short term. He walked Pulock straight to UFA, walked Barzal straight to 1 year arbitration, traded an abundance of picks and prospects, etc.

You make those moves for a handful or runs. It worked year 1, may not even work year 2 and gets ugly by year 3.

wow Barzal straight to 1 yr arbitration you say , lol , wtf do you think that means ?

he got Barzal at a decent cap hit and still holds his rights when his current deal expires

i'm guessing you believe he should have pulled a Dubas and reset the bar on his rfa's and not only did he severely overpay Mathews at that term but he also handed him and all the rfa's full nmc's which means his nmc kicks in before i can even find out if he wants to re sign with us and worst case scenario is he pulls a Tavares and plays out the season then walks

 

[Bomber0104]

I didn’t ignore Dobson? How is he relevant though? Let’s sacrifice Morgan Rielly because we have Sandin who isn’t at that level yet!

They all signed 5+ year contracts... not bridges

Traded one for Lous f*** up and re-acquired an equivalent pick by astutely making an early deal for Kapanen before the market tanked. The other was dealt for Muzzin which no one would reverse.

Dubas brought more picks in than out and also hit on a lot of picks that are tracking well to the NHL. Lou didn’t even make a top 90 pick this draft.

You have every right to support Lou. But stop making ridiculous unsupported claims.

Actually I haven't made any "unsupported" claims and I'm not supporting Lou really.

I really don't care what happens with the Islanders but I think it's incredibly insightful to use successful teams and GM's as benchmarks against ours.

Success for me is measured in wins, playoff rounds won, Cups, etc.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

It wasn't that he wouldn't be able to re-sign Barzal, it was that he wouldn't be able to keep all three of Barzal Pulock Toews and would have to bridge to even keep two. That happened.

He's fencing for time and mortgaging their future in the process. Pelech/Beauvillier/Sorokin all up for raises, with the only major money coming off the books being a key player in Cizikas.

We literally have a decade of cap era record to look at with the devils, and it's not pretty.

The only reason he was able to sign Barzal was a retirement. It's almost inconceivable to not have a single star signed and be that tight to the cap.

 

[ottomaddox]

Kudos to Dubas. He recognized that TOR had no interesting personalities on the team, and that they were rather bland.

This year we have personalities. Characters, and people you can really get behind.

Big improvement for fans.

This is a much more likeable team.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

wow Barzal straight to 1 yr arbitration you say , lol , wtf do you think that means ?

he got Barzal at a decent cap hit and still holds his rights when his current deal expires

i'm guessing you believe he should have pulled a Dubas and reset the bar on his rfa's and not only did he severely overpay Mathews at that term but he also handed him and all the rfa's full nmc's which means his nmc kicks in before i can even find out if he wants to re sign with us and worst case scenario is he pulls a Tavares and plays out the season then walks

He couldn't if he wanted to. All his overpayments to vets prevented him from offering him any term or dollars. Should make the next contract interesting, though given Lou's age, he probably doesn't care.