Kyle Dubas Discussion (continued) the 2021 edition

[ToneDog]

I don’t declare that Dubas has had any success. I just don’t bother constantly comparing him to a former GM who, where it counts, had just as little success as him while here.



This is objectively false.

Yup that is my opinion. After the top 4, I do not see much up front other than Hyman and Kerfoot. Spezza, Thornton and Simmonds are past their best before dates and Soup, Vesey and anybody not named Robertson are MEH.

 

[Bomber0104]

He had that team with Martin and Leo in the conference finals last year while we were golfing. Those are hard facts that cannot be denied.

I know Dubas would disagree but I'd rather have Martin and Leo than Cody Ceci and Tyson Barrie on my playoff team!

 

[ToneDog]

Oh so it doesn't matter what his team looks like in a year or 2? You're ok with those contracts b/c playoffs last year

Look I really do not care what Lou has done or what he does on the Island in future years but the defenders of Dubas using Lou to defend Dubas is plain wrong.

 

[ToneDog]

I know Dubas would disagree but I'd rather have Martin and Leo than Cody Ceci and Tyson Barrie on my playoff team!

Plesase never mention those names again. Lou signed Kadri to a sweet contract and his successor trades him for two more soft players. That trade alone will go down in infamy along with Courtnall for Kordic, Kurvers for a 1st, Rask for Raycroft and Kessel for 2 1sts and a 2nd.

 

[4thline]

Look I really do not care what Lou has done or what he does on the Island in future years but the defenders of Dubas using Lou to defend Dubas had is plain wrong.

Not unless you value the last two years more than the next 10.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Look I really do not care what Lou has done or what he does on the Island in future years but the defenders of Dubas using Lou to defend Dubas had is plain wrong.

This is never the case and I don’t know why this is the narrative that’s always pushed. No “defender of Dubas” ever brings up Lou unprompted. His name only comes up when the contrarians want to use the 17-18 season or the past two Islanders season as ways to take shots at the Dubas regime.

The man hasn’t been the GM here for going on three seasons now. It’s time to bloody well move on. If a GM elicits such fawning perhaps you lot should just get Lamoriello jerseys and cheer for the Islanders. My God never seen an executive who accomplished so little be held in such reverence.

And before any one of you come back at that last sentence with “hur dur Dubas actually,” please. Half this fan base is itching to fire him, he’s certainly not held in the same regard.

 

[ToneDog]

Not unless you value the last two years more than the next 10.

All speculation. The next 10 years have yet to be written.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I know Dubas would disagree but I'd rather have Martin and Leo than Cody Ceci and Tyson Barrie on my playoff team!

For how many years and how many million?

 

[4thline]

All speculation. The next 10 years have yet to be written.

Improving the future is the job of upper echelon management. The clearly stated plan of this org is to is to ice a high quality, sustainable team year after year, which doesn't line up with how Lou has managed teams in the cap era. He want's another cup before he's done.

If we were talking about stocks/managers, Lou's the guy posting great short term P&L numbers, while leaving the balance sheet in shambles and alienating key staff. Dubas is posting *slightly* worse short number numbers, while doing a much better job setting the org up for long term success.

 

[ToneDog]

This is never the case and I don’t know why this is the narrative that’s always pushed. No “defender of Dubas” ever brings up Lou unprompted. His name only comes up when the contrarians want to use the 17-18 season or the past two Islanders season as ways to take shots at the Dubas regime.

The man hasn’t been the GM here for going on three seasons now. It’s time to bloody well move on. If a GM elicits such fawning perhaps you lot should just get Lamoriello jerseys and cheer for the Islanders. My God never seen an executive who accomplished so little be held in such reverence.

And before any one of you come back at that last sentence with “hur dur Dubas actually,” please. Half this fan base is itching to fire him, he’s certainly not held in the same regard.

I have moved on from Lou but it is somewhat fustrating seeing a future HOF GM being ripped in order to defend Dubas. What other NHL GM has each and every one of moves criticed like Lou's (Barzal, Pageau, Martin. Leo signings, dumping of a dman to save cap space etc. etc. etc.)? Go back in the threads and see for yourself.

That said, this is Dubas' third season and it is the result of this team under him that counts. So far he has left me wanting.

 

[ToneDog]

Improving the future is the job of upper echelon management. The clearly stated plan of this org is to is to ice a high quality, sustainable team year after year, which doesn't line up with how Lou has managed teams in the cap era. He want's another cup before he's done.

If we were talking about stocks/managers, Lou's the guy posting great short term P&L numbers, while leaving the balance sheet in shambles and alienating key staff. Dubas is posting *slightly* worse short number numbers, while doing a much better job setting the org up for long term success.

You make sense. I hope you are right.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

This is never the case and I don’t know why this is the narrative that’s always pushed. No “defender of Dubas” ever brings up Lou unprompted. His name only comes up when the contrarians want to use the 17-18 season or the past two Islanders season as ways to take shots at the Dubas regime.

The man hasn’t been the GM here for going on three seasons now. It’s time to bloody well move on. If a GM elicits such fawning perhaps you lot should just get Lamoriello jerseys and cheer for the Islanders. My God never seen an executive who accomplished so little be held in such reverence.

And before any one of you come back at that last sentence with “hur dur Dubas actually,” please. Half this fan base is itching to fire him, he’s certainly not held in the same regard.

Here now. Lou won 8 playoff rounds in 18 years. 5 of those came in two years so 3 in the remaining 16 years. Give the man his due.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What we do know is that Dubas has failed to take us further and that Lou has turned around a sorry franchise.

Except Dubas has taken us further. He's addressed weaknesses, and we've been a better team under Dubas in everything except goaltending (where Dubas has put together the best tandem we've had), and shootout wins (which has nothing to do with the GM or really even team quality). This despite Dubas facing way harder situations and expectations, and while significantly improving our prospect pool and future in the process.

Calling the Islanders a "sorry franchise" before Lou got there is also inaccurate. The reality is that just like 2017-2018 was an abnormally inflated year for the Leafs, 2017-2018 was an abnormally low year for the Islanders. They were a 0.600 team over the previous 3 years before that. This is the problem with looking at single season raw points with no context to label what a team "is". Lou's impact on their recent "success" has been greatly exaggerated, and Dubas' moves have been greatly underappreciated.

 

[ToneDog]

Here now. Lou won 8 playoff rounds in 18 years. 5 of those came in two years so 3 in the remaining 16 years. Give the man his due.

And how many Cups for what #99 called a Mickey Mouse franchise? Lou will be in the HOF. Dubas will probably have to buy a ticket to get in.

 

[ToneDog]

Except Dubas has taken us further. He's addressed weaknesses, and we've been a better team under Dubas in everything except goaltending (where Dubas has put together the best tandem we've had), and shootout wins (which has nothing to do with the GM or really even team quality) relative to 2017-2018. This despite Dubas facing way harder situations and expectations, and while significantly improving our prospect pool and future in the process.

Calling the Islanders a "sorry franchise" before Lou got there is also inaccurate. The reality is that just like 2017-2018 was an abnormally inflated year for the Leafs, 2017-2018 was an abnormally low year for the Islanders. They were a 0.600 team over the previous 3 years before that. This is the problem with looking at single season raw points with no context to label what a team "is". Lou's impact on their recent "success" has been greatly exaggerated.

With Milbury and Garth as GMs and Wong as the owner and no arena to play in, I call that a sorry franchise. JT could not get out of there fast enough.

Dubas taking us further is debateable and is irrelavant for me as a Leaf fan. I am not bullish on a team relying on 3 pretty much washed up forwards. I guess we need to see how his draftees do to determine whether he can surround the 4 amigos with a good enough supporting cast.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We do know that they have regressed under Dubas and are now a team with 4 elite forwards and not much else surrounding them.

That's not even close to true.

With Milbury and Garth as GMs and Wong as the owner and no arena to play in, I call that a sorry franchise.

That has nothing to do with the team on the ice.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I know Dubas would disagree but I'd rather have Martin and Leo than Cody Ceci and Tyson Barrie on my playoff team!

Seems like Lou doesn't even want Leo on his playoff team considering how often he got scratched and now waived.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Lou’s work on the Island doesn’t give me any reason to think he would have managed the Leafs’ cap any better TBH

I suspect there would be a lot more dead weight contracts on the books.

 

[ToneDog]

Seems like Lou doesn't even want Leo on his playoff team considering how often he got scratched and now waived.

Leo was pretty much done here. Lou was dumb for signing him to that contract. You think he would have learned from the Marleau signing. However, I have no idea reading into what it means for players being waived these days. We just waived Spezza and Dell and many are disappointed we lost Dell and happy Spezza was not claimed.

 

[Gabriel426]

Here is how I look at this.
Lou got more to work with when he was Leafs GM due to the Big 3 being on ELCs. Yet he didn't take advantage of that situation beside trading 2 2nds for rentals, signing Marleau and Hanisy. It could be bc of timing, or MGT at that time want a more solid rebuild, I don't think anyone knows unless they were MGT.
Dubas needs to work on the Cap more due to the signing of JT, MNM trio and AJ, Kap getting their post ELC contracts.
As for Leo and Martin. Martin didn't dress for half a reason before getting traded and Leo could hardly keep up with the team during his last season. I think Babs had more to do with both of them not playing or playing well than Dubas not wanting them.

 

[ToneDog]

Lou’s work on the Island doesn’t give me any reason to think he would have managed the Leafs’ cap any better TBH

I suspect there would be a lot more dead weight contracts on the books.

He definitely would not have enough cap space to sign the 3 amigos to those contracts but it is all speculation. Nobody knows what the Leafs would have looked like had Shanny stuck with Lou.

 

[Bomber0104]

And how many Cups for what #99 called a Mickey Mouse franchise? Lou will be in the HOF. Dubas will probably have to buy a ticket to get in.

Maybe the Hall of Fame will start giving more weight to expected wins/playoff rounds/Cups in the future!

 

[All Mod Cons]

Lou’s work on the Island doesn’t give me any reason to think he would have managed the Leafs’ cap any better TBH

I suspect there would be a lot more dead weight contracts on the books.

Would we have gone further in the playoffs though? I mean what's the end goal here? Trying to go as far as possible each year in the playoffs? Or having a nice looking cap spend (which we don't even really have)?

 

[Gabriel426]

He definitely would not have enough cap space to sign the 3 amigos to those contracts but it is all speculation. Nobody knows what the Leafs would have looked like had Shanny stuck with Lou.

It is an interesting discussion.
If Shanny extend Lou for another 3 years in the summer before his deal expires. Giving Lou more confidence and job security. Would Lou pull the trigger to trade one of two of Bozak, Leo and JVR the year before their UFA? Would he still trade for turtleneck at TDL for a 2nd? Would the Leafs still go after JT? How would the contracts of AM, Willie and Marner looks like? Would Babs still be in charge if Lou is around?

 

[Mess]

And how many Cups for what #99 called a Mickey Mouse franchise? Lou will be in the HOF. Dubas will probably have to buy a ticket to get in.

FYI : Lou Lamoriello is already in the Hockey Hall of Fame, inducted in 2009 actually. Remember he won 3 X Stanley Cup in 1995, 2000 and 2003.

Lamoriello, inducted as a builder, makes his speech at the 2009 Hockey Hall of Fame Induction Ceremony. ​

Link: Legends of Hockey - Spotlight - One on One with Lou Lamoriello

If Dubas makes it the HHOF himself then it will have meant our Leafs will have hoisted some Stanley Cup(s) and likely sooner rather than later.