Kyle Dubas Discussion (continued) the 2021 edition

[Bomber0104]

I think the main reason is probably down to results, points and playoff performances.

Please don't just quote 3 random words of this, because it takes things out of context.

Cheers

Aka "the big picture"

@Joey Hoser

 

[Gary Nylund]

If the Leafs win a Cup, I'll give the GM 15 years of f***ing around before I criticize them.

LOL OK then. 15 years, wow!

 

[IPS]

Taken every playoff matchup he's been in to the limit, even against one of the best teams in the league.

You really see this as some kind of mark of honor?

Every year there's lower-end teams who'll give a contender a run for their money early in the playoffs. Try having some standards.

 

[ToneDog]

You really see this as some kind of mark of honor?

Every year there's lower-end teams who'll give a contender a run for their money early in the playoffs. Try having some standards.

If you set the bar low enough .....

 

[Dekes For Days]

You really see this as some kind of mark of honor?

Being highly competitive in every playoff round you've ever played in, even against the best opponents, is a good thing, and is not a reason to fire a GM after 2 years. That was also just one of the things mentioned.

Every year there's lower-end teams who'll give a contender a run for their money early in the playoffs.

In 2018-2019, Boston went 8-2 through the following two rounds, and then lost in 7, while injured, to the Stanley Cup champions.

 

[Pookie]

Being highly competitive in every playoff round you've ever played in, even against the best opponents, is a good thing, and is not a reason to fire a GM after 2 years.

In 2018-2019, Boston went 8-2 through the following two rounds, and then lost in 7, while injured, to the Stanley Cup champions.

conversely, winning a playoff round and getting to the conference final over the same time frame is a pretty good reason to question whether you kept the right GM.

 

[sparxx87]

Imagine back in 2016 being told, right after drafting Matthews, Marner, and Nylander as well as gathering some of the best available hockey minds for the front office and coaching staff, that the Leafs' pinnacle would be the 2017/2018 season (under Lou) and from there the team would slowly descend in the standings year-after-year and still be searching for their first playoff round win after 4 seasons...

No one would honestly call that a success.

Everyone would call that disappointment.

Dubas had little to no impact on that initial success and a huge hand in the subsequent disappointment.

I agree. Most concerning to me is that Dubas came out and said many of the things his critics had been saying for years. Lacking leadership, can’t play physical, can’t defend, too easy to play against etc etc.

Hard to understand how this wasn’t obvious to someone apparently qualified to be an NHL GM... But I give him credit for acknowledging his mistakes and the flaws in his philosophy, and at least making an attempt to fix them in spite of their lack of cap space, another problem he created.

I still don’t like their makeup in the bottom 6 and the defense is still leaving much to be desired, but we’ll see how it plays out.

I think the Canadian division is a gift and a curse. It’ll give them a much easier road to the playoffs but won’t allow them to battle and measure themselves against any top contenders. This could hurt if/when the playoffs come around.

 

[Dekes For Days]

conversely, winning a playoff round and getting to the conference final over the same time frame is a pretty good reason to question whether you kept the right GM.

Not at all. Completely different team, in a completely different stage of their development, with completely different advantages, facing completely different opponents. When one looks at what that GM has actually done, every single Leaf fan should be confident that the right choice was made.

 

[Pookie]

Not at all. Completely different team, in a completely different stage of their development, with completely different advantages, facing completely different opponents. When one looks at what that GM has actually done, every single Leaf fan should be confident that the right choice was made.

if you like your Spring and Summer off... I guess you’d be happy.

 

[Dekes For Days]

if you like your Spring and Summer off... I guess you’d be happy.

I like my spring and summers being full of Leaf hockey for the foreseeable future, which is why I am glad we have Dubas, and not somebody who selfishly ignores the long-term ramifications of his actions.

 

[Bomber0104]

if you like your Spring and Summer off... I guess you’d be happy.

Zing!

 

[Leaf Fans]

conversely, winning a playoff round and getting to the conference final over the same time frame is a pretty good reason to question whether you kept the right GM.

Not if the GM did it with another team. Take Toronto for instance, the previous GM went to another team and that team made the the conference finals- irrelevant for the Leafs as he didn't do it here, but some people attempt to link the two.

 

[ToneDog]

Not if the GM did it with another team. Take Toronto for instance, the previous GM went to another team and that team made the the conference finals- irrelevant for the Leafs as he didn't do it here, but some people attempt to link the two.

Said GM was on the right track here until Shanny went in a different direction. Instead said GM picked up in the new city where he left off here. Time will tell whether Shanny made the correct decision. So far Dubas has proven that he is not able to surround our elite 4 forwards with a proper supporting cast.

 

[The Podium]

Said GM was on the right track here until Shanny went in a different direction. Instead said GM picked up in the new city where he left off here. Time will tell whether Shanny made the correct decision. So far Dubas has proven that he is not able to surround our elite 4 forwards with a proper supporting cast.

Right on track? He had no better results here than Dubas has here. Back to back 1st round losses....

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Right on track? He had no better results here than Dubas has here. Back to back 1st round losses....

No but see, Lou was the GM when the Leafs set a franchise record in points (off the back of 7 shootout wins but shhhhh). And obviously since he’s had success somewhere else he would’ve had the same success here, that’s just how these things work.

 

[ToneDog]

Right on track? He had no better results here than Dubas has here. Back to back 1st round losses....

Fact: The Leafs improved every year under Lou. That has nothing to do with the team doing as well or better under Dubas the following year.

Fact: Dubas +JT failed to get further although one could argue that they should have beaten the Bruins yet they coughed up the series while Lou -JT has made the Isles respectable again and they have improved each year he has been in charge.

 

[Pookie]

No but see, Lou was the GM when the Leafs set a franchise record in points (off the back of 7 shootout wins but shhhhh). And obviously since he’s had success somewhere else he would’ve had the same success here, that’s just how these things work.

as opposed to declaring success for the current GM based off of future hope?

 

[ToneDog]

No but see, Lou was the GM when the Leafs set a franchise record in points (off the back of 7 shootout wins but shhhhh). And obviously since he’s had success somewhere else he would’ve had the same success here, that’s just how these things work.

Sadly Lou was not given the chance to prove whether the Leafs would have continued to improve or regress. We do know that they have regressed under Dubas and are now a team with 4 elite forwards and not much else surrounding them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Said GM was on the right track here

Except he wasn't. He relied primarily on elite players on ELCs (that he really didn't have much of anything to do with) to see the improvement the team had in 2016-2017, and he didn't show any sign of being able to push the team beyond that, or address the team's weaknesses, or build the team's future. But because the team fluked into good health, a good shootout record, and a journeyman backup waiver claim having a career-best vezina-quality season in 2017-2018 before Lou took off, he is irrationally praised as some genius by those who rely exclusively on raw points with zero context, even though we were actually better in 2018-2019 when he was gone.

 

[Bomber0104]

Imagine thinking regressing the team year-over-year in the standings like Dubas has been doing is somehow better than taking a team from dead last to the playoffs in just one season like Lou did..

 

[ShaneFalco]

Said GM was on the right track here until Shanny went in a different direction. Instead said GM picked up in the new city where he left off here. Time will tell whether Shanny made the correct decision. So far Dubas has proven that he is not able to surround our elite 4 forwards with a proper supporting cast.

PM, and Zaitsev signings were on the right track?
Not addressing the D in any significant was was on track?
Then leaving and signing Martin and Komarov - that's the track you'd like?

 

[ToneDog]

Except he wasn't. He relied primarily on elite players on ELCs (that he really didn't have much of anything to do with) to see the improvement the team had in 2016-2017, and he didn't show any sign of being able to push the team beyond that, or address the team's weaknesses, or build the team's future. But because the team fluked into good health, a good shootout record, and a journeyman backup waiver claim having a career-best vezina-quality season in 2017-2018 before Lou took off, he is irrationally praised as some genius by those who rely exclusively on surface results with zero context.

Nobody knows what this team would have looked like if Shanny had not changed horses mid stream. What we do know is that Dubas has failed to take us further and that Lou has turned around a sorry franchise.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

as opposed to declaring success for the current GM based off of future hope?

I don’t declare that Dubas has had any success. I just don’t bother constantly comparing him to a former GM who, where it counts, had just as little success as him while here.

Sadly Lou was not given the chance to prove whether the Leafs would have continued to improve or regress. We do know that they have regressed under Dubas and are now a team with 4 elite forwards and not much else surrounding them.

This is objectively false.

 

[ToneDog]

PM, and Zaitsev signings were on the right track?
Not addressing the D in any significant was was on track?
Then leaving and signing Martin and Komarov - that's the track you'd like?

He had that team with Martin and Leo in the conference finals last year while we were golfing. Those are hard facts that cannot be denied.

 

[ShaneFalco]

He had that team with Martin and Leo in the conference finals last year while we were golfing. Those are hard facts that cannot be denied.

Oh so it doesn't matter what his team looks like in a year or 2? You're ok with those contracts b/c playoffs last year