Kyle Dubas Discussion (continued) the 2021 edition

[The Podium]

Once Aho signed, Dubas should have negotiated from that number. Unfortunately he already had offered the JT deal before July 1st and there was no way back for him IMO. It is a failure if Mitch does not become a consistant 95+ point player. It would not have been as bad if you did not have JT making similar money who likely will not reach or outperform his contract.

As far as I know Sakic did not bend signing Ranta after Mitch had signed.

I mean, Mitch is already more or less a consistent 95 point player.

He outplayed both Aho and Rantanen over the course of the ELCs so lets not pretend he shouldnt have come at a number above both. And Rantanen still signed 6x9.25 which was well over their team's cap structure's upper end so Sakic did bend.

I am not even a fan of the Marner contract. He should have signed similar to Kucherov or Rantanen.

Just pointing out that using a contract signed AFTER isnt a comparable that Marner and Dubas would have used in negotiations.

 

[Mess]

I mean, Mitch is already more or less a consistent 95 point player.

He outplayed both Aho and Rantanen over the course of the ELCs so lets not pretend he shouldnt have come at a number above both. And Rantanen still signed 6x9.25 which was well over their team's cap structure's upper end so Sakic did bend.

I am not even a fan of the Marner contract. He should have signed similar to Kucherov or Rantanen.

Just pointing out that using a contract signed AFTER isnt a comparable that Marner and Dubas would have used in negotiations.

Marner is already a 95 point on the LEAFS, while playing on line with, and team with and PP with Matthews and Tavares.

As long as Matthews and JT keep popping 40+ goals Marner is a 95 point player. Matthews and JT don't need Mitch to be 40+ goal scorers but Marner sure needs them filling the net with pucks to maintain his assist and point totals.

If Aho and Marner switched teams would he still be a 95 point player in Carolina, and what would Aho point totals look like if he played on the same PP as AM and JT and WN in Toronto? Aho had 38 goals in 66 games last year without Matthews or Tavares influencing his point totals.

What if Marner played in Columbus or Detroit or NYI or Anaheim or [insert other lower scoring team here] would he still be a 95 point player or is he tied to his own environment to determine his productivity?

Leafs signed #1C Tavares and the put Marner on his wing in a contract year, and it went from costing them $8.5 mil per season on a 8 year deal to nearly $11 mil on just 6 years.

Marner can count his lucky stars that Leafs gave Tavares $11 mil and Matthews $11 mil and because of their production and contracts it resulted in his contract as a fallout of his teammates and linemates on Leafs internal payscale as his only contract comparables, and that is not comparable to the rest of the NHL as he has Toronto only contract because of his circumstances. IMO

Marner scores 16-25 goals of his 95 points and the rest of his production is total dependent of his teammates filling the net with pucks as a playmaker who relies on others to pad is point totals.

This is why Dubas receives so much criticism for that contract and people feel he got played by Marner and his player agent Darren Ferris.

 

[Dekes For Days]

When you posted the Matthews comparable stats: 5 points stats, 3 goals stats.
When you posted the Marner comparable stats: (lol) 8 point stats, 2 goal stats.
The fact that you cling only to the stats that prove your agenda and leaf player strengths is on full display here.

I did not only choose stats that "fit my agenda" at all. I posted a detailed breakdown using multiple stats in all three comparisons, including things that the Leaf player was better at and things that the Leaf player was worse at.

For all three comparisons, I posted:

-Points/GP
-Primary Points/GP
-ES Points/60
-ES Primary Points/60
-ES Goals/60
-PP Points/60
-PP Primary Points/60
-PP Goals/60.

In the Matthews comparison, I posted Goals/GP as well, because in that particular comparison, Matthews was so massively ahead of everybody else and so historically dominant in that trait, that I figured that some may find that relevant. Goal production was not excluded from the other comparisons though. I posted the goal breakdown in each game state. If you'd like the overall per-game goal production for Marner, here you go:

Goals/GP

Aho: 0.34
Rantanen: 0.33
Kane: 0.29
Marner: 0.28

Goals/GP, No EN

Rantanen: 0.31
Aho: 0.30
Kane: 0.28
Marner: 0.26

In one of the two Marner comparisons, I also posted Points/GP and Primary Points/GP with EN points removed, in addition to without. This was because that particular comparison involved two players (Aho and Rantanen) who had an abnormally large percentage of EN points. People have differing opinions on how EN points are treated within negotiations, so I made sure to post both numbers so that people could draw their own conclusions. Marner was well ahead of the others both with and without those removed, so I'm not really sure what your issue is.

The other comparisons didn't really have much impact from the removal of EN points, which is why I didn't bother to clutter the page with them, even when it helped the Leaf players. But if it's important to you, here you go:

Points/GP, No EN

McDavid: 1.13
Matthews: 0.96
Eichel: 0.75

Primary Points/GP, No EN

Matthews: 0.81
McDavid: 0.80
Eichel: 0.58

Goals/GP, No EN

Matthews: 0.53
McDavid: 0.34
Eichel: 0.31

Points/GP, No EN

Marner: 0.90
Kane: 0.87

Primary Points/GP, No EN

Marner: 0.68
Kane: 0.64

BTW, still waiting for a reply to my response to you:

Interesting. So according to you, Kane was a "proven 70 point player", and Marner was a "proven 90 point player", right? Clearly Marner deserved a much higher contract than Kane, right?

If you don't like the older comparison, Eichel was a "proven 50 point player" by your logic. Clearly Matthews and Marner have contracts that are UNPRECEDENTED and DRAMATIC underpayments, right?

I'm very curious to see how you attempt to maintain your claims, using your own logic.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Marner is already a 95 point on the LEAFS, while playing on line with, and team with and PP with Matthews and Tavares.

As long as Matthews and JT keep popping 40+ goals Marner is a 95 point player. Matthews and JT don't need Mitch to be 40+ goal scorers but Marner sure needs them filling the net with pucks to maintain his assist and point totals.

If Aho and Marner switched teams would he still be a 95 point player in Carolina, and what would Aho point totals look like if he played on the same PP as AM and JT and WN in Toronto? Aho had 38 goals in 66 games last year without Matthews or Tavares influencing his point totals.

What if Marner played in Columbus or Detroit or NYI or Anaheim or [insert other lower scoring team here] would he still be a 95 point player or is he tied to his own environment to determine his productivity?

Leafs signed #1C Tavares and the put Marner on his wing in a contract year, and it went from costing them $8.5 mil per season on a 8 year deal to nearly $11 mil on just 6 years.

Marner can count his lucky stars that Leafs gave Tavares $11 mil and Matthews $11 mil and because of their production and contracts it resulted in his contract as a fallout of his teammates and linemates on Leafs internal payscale as his only contract comparables, and that is not comparable to the rest of the NHL as he has Toronto only contract because of his circumstances. IMO

Marner scores 16-25 goals of his 95 points and the rest of him production is total dependent of his teammates filling the net with pucks as a playmaker who relies on others to pad is point totals.

This is why Dubas receives so much criticism for that contract and people feel he got played by Marner and his player agent Darren Ferris.

The first time Marner sustained point per game played status over an 82 game stretch, 75% of that was pre Tavares.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Once Aho signed, Dubas should have negotiated from that number.

As far as I know Sakic did not bend signing Ranta after Mitch had signed.

Marner's contract aligns quite well with Aho and Rantanen, as I showed.

It is a failure if Mitch does not become a consistant 95+ point player.

He basically already is...

 

[ToneDog]

Marner's contract aligns quite well with Aho and Rantanen, as I showed.

He basically already is...

Mitch was not the same player last year. The injury probably played into it but as you say he was averaging a 95 point season which shows that he probably can score 90+ points in his sleep or 100+ if he has a better season than last. IMO this won't be a "normal" year due to playing in a division consisting of teams playing in 3 time zones and a compacted, shortened season, I really want to see what Marner does in the next "normal" 82 game season. In his favour is that he will be 1-2 years older and better than he already is but I still think he is overpaid in a cap world

 

[Dekes For Days]

Aho had 38 goals in 66 games last year without Matthews or Tavares influencing his point totals.

Aho played alongside quality players himself last year. His two most common linemates were Teravainen and Svechnikov, and they all had similar production. Their linemate quality is not significantly different. Even with top-of-the-league EN goals and EN points, Aho didn't even reach P/GP.

Marner can count his lucky stars that Leafs gave Tavares $11 mil and Matthews $11 mil and because of their production and contracts it resulted in his contract as a fallout of his teammates and linemates on Leafs internal payscale as his only contract comparables, and that is not comparable to the rest of the NHL as he has Toronto only contract because of his circumstances.

Marner was good because of himself, not because of Tavares or Matthews, and Marner got his contract because of himself, not them. Marner's contract aligns with post-ELC contracts across the league.

Marner scores 16-25 goals of his 95 points and the rest of his production is total dependent of his teammates filling the net with pucks as a playmaker who relies on others to pad is point totals.

That is a gross misrepresentation of the contributions and impact of a playmaker.

 

[Oscar Peterson]

Anyone who thinks Tavares carried Marner in 2018-19 needs to give their head a shake, they worked beautifully together and elevated each other to new heights. Same will probably happen this year with Matthews and Mitch playing together full time.

Sure, we all wish he would have signed a cheaper deal but what's done is done, he's still one of the best players in the league with a long Leaf future ahead of him, don't see how we're still complaining about this a year later.

 

[Mess]

The first time Marner sustained point per game played status over an 82 game stretch, 75% of that was pre Tavares.

So are you saying in a season where Marner recorded ... 2017-18 - Toronto Maple Leafs - NHL .. 82 games 22 goals 47 assists 69 points

That he should be considered a 95 point player pre Tavares for contract purposes, because during a portion of that season he produced at a 95 point pace rate, because he happened to switch from JVR & Bozak to Marleau & Kadri?

If this negotiating ploy would actually work in real life, then all players would take smaller segments of their full seasons totals and use pace during a portion to inflate contract demands.

Marner went from 61 point and 69 point [1st X 2 seasons] negotiating position, that resulted in a Draisaitl like ask [$8.5 mil X 8 years] described as "too rich for Leafs" to playing a "prove it seasons" alongside $11 mil Tavares and putting up 94 points and it ended up costing Dubas & Leafs +$2.5 mil per season extra and he lost 2 extra years of buying UFA status on 6 year team instead of 8 years.

Marner convinced Dubas that Matthews was now only comparable and unfortunately now for Leafs Cup competitive purposes they overpaid and in a Cap world that has competitiveness consequences.

This is however now spilt milk and beaten to death and nothing we can do, but accept that and move on.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Marner went from 61 point and 69 point [1st X 2 seasons] negotiating position, that resulted in a Draisaitl like ask [$8.5 mil X 8 years]

Marner's raw point totals in his earlier seasons undervalue his actual contributions and quality relative to his peers, and there is no evidence of your suggested "ask" being real. Marner had no reason to want to sign that offseason. Marner's 3rd year was one of the best pre-signing seasons ever, and you keep dismissing it and falsely attributing it to others.

Marner convinced Dubas that Matthews was now only comparable and unfortunately now for Leafs Cup competitive purposes they overpaid

Matthews was not Marner's "only comparable". He wasn't really a comparable at all. Marner was also not overpaid; his contract aligns properly with post-ELC contracts across the league.

 

[Gary Nylund]

McDavid IMO is the best player in the league, but he leaves a lot to be desired defensively.

I guess every player has their strengths and weaknesses, overall though I think we can all agree the McDavid is the best (and thus better than Matthews). All except Zeke that is as he implied that McDavid isn't better than Matthews. Then again, when I asked him to confirm he seems to have disappeared to maybe he'll backtrack or spin away from that stance. If he ever comes back that is.

 

[Stephen]

Wasn't his ELC performance relatively unprecedented? How many 90+ point ELC wingers can you name?

Looking back at the summer of 2019, there was a great group of comparable RFA FORWARDS coming out of the 2014 and 2015 drafts who put up spectacular numbers on their ELCs, each one of Rantanen, Aho, Marner, Point hit at least 83 points, with Marner and Point hitting 92 and 94 points respectively. Barzal also hit the 85 point mark but he only hit free agency this year. Marner was also furnished with an $11 million superstar center which the others were not. So within this grouping of players you had a pretty good baseline so as not to have to overpay Marner by over a million dollars.

With reference to Matthews and Eichel, they set the higher bar than the group mentioned above which Marner ended up landing between. But both those guys are were more in the category of locking up a franchise center in the making well ahead of free agency and had relatively weaker numbers. Their deals were more in the speculative category, i.e. a franchise trying to pay their star player under a McDavid hierarchy.

So really, it came down to whether Marner should be considered to be part of the Aho, Rantanen, Point cohort, or the Matthews and Eichel cohort.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I mean, Mitch is already more or less a consistent 95 point player.

He outplayed both Aho and Rantanen over the course of the ELCs so lets not pretend he shouldnt have come at a number above both. And Rantanen still signed 6x9.25 which was well over their team's cap structure's upper end so Sakic did bend.

I am not even a fan of the Marner contract. He should have signed similar to Kucherov or Rantanen.

Just pointing out that using a contract signed AFTER isnt a comparable that Marner and Dubas would have used in negotiations.

I guess the non Leafs fans must think Rantanen got a better contract from Sakic because it's $9.25 million and think Dubas should have never given Marner $10.893 million because he already gave Matthews and Tavares $11.634 million and $11 million.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

So are you saying in a season where Marner recorded ... 2017-18 - Toronto Maple Leafs - NHL .. 82 games 22 goals 47 assists 69 points

That he should be considered a 95 point player pre Tavares for contract purposes, because during a portion of that season he produced at a 95 point pace rate, because he happened to switch from JVR & Bozak to Marleau & Kadri?

If this negotiating ploy would actually work in real life, then all players would take smaller segments of their full seasons totals and use pace during a portion to inflate contract demands.

Marner went from 61 point and 69 point [1st X 2 seasons] negotiating position, that resulted in a Draisaitl like ask [$8.5 mil X 8 years] described as "too rich for Leafs" to playing a "prove it seasons" alongside $11 mil Tavares and putting up 94 points and it ended up costing Dubas & Leafs +$2.5 mil per season extra and he lost 2 extra years of buying UFA status on 6 year team instead of 8 years.

Marner convinced Dubas that Matthews was now only comparable and unfortunately now for Leafs Cup competitive purposes they overpaid and in a Cap world that has competitiveness consequences.

This is however now spilt milk and beaten to death and nothing we can do, but accept that and move on.

I am saying exactly what I said. His first stretch of point per game over 82 consecutive games, 75% of that was pre Tavares. Mostly with Kadri and Marleau. Anyone who suggests he is what he is due to Tavares or Matthews clearly hasn't been paying attention or has an agenda.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Looking back at the summer of 2019, there was a great group of comparable RFA FORWARDS coming out of the 2014 and 2015 drafts who put up spectacular numbers on their ELCs, each one of Rantanen, Aho, Marner, Point hit at least 83 points, with Marner and Point hitting 92 and 94 points respectively. Barzal also hit the 85 point mark but he only hit free agency this year. Marner was also furnished with an $11 million superstar center which the others were not. So within this grouping of players you had a pretty good baseline so as not to have to overpay Marner by over a million dollars.

With reference to Matthews and Eichel, they set the higher bar than the group mentioned above which Marner ended up landing between. But both those guys are were more in the category of locking up a franchise center in the making well ahead of free agency and had relatively weaker numbers. Their deals were more in the speculative category, i.e. a franchise trying to pay their star player under a McDavid hierarchy.

So really, it came down to whether Marner should be considered to be part of the Aho, Rantanen, Point cohort, or the Matthews and Eichel cohort.

So not a lot of 90+ point ELC wingers?

 

[LeafsNation75]

Looking back at the summer of 2019, there was a great group of comparable RFA FORWARDS coming out of the 2014 and 2015 drafts who put up spectacular numbers on their ELCs, each one of Rantanen, Aho, Marner, Point hit at least 83 points, with Marner and Point hitting 92 and 94 points respectively. Barzal also hit the 85 point mark but he only hit free agency this year. Marner was also furnished with an $11 million superstar center which the others were not. So within this grouping of players you had a pretty good baseline so as not to have to overpay Marner by over a million dollars.

With reference to Matthews and Eichel, they set the higher bar than the group mentioned above which Marner ended up landing between. But both those guys are were more in the category of locking up a franchise center in the making well ahead of free agency and had relatively weaker numbers. Their deals were more in the speculative category, i.e. a franchise trying to pay their star player under a McDavid hierarchy.

So really, it came down to whether Marner should be considered to be part of the Aho, Rantanen, Point cohort, or the Matthews and Eichel cohort.

Do you think there is enough sample size of the last two seasons with Barzal where his 85 point rookie season was a fluke, since he's followed that up with 62 and 60 point seasons. So basically was it more him playing behind John Tavares in his rookie season for getting that number or is Barry Trotz this great defensive coach who changed his game and that's why his point totals have dropped?

 

[Stephen]

So not a lot of 90+ point ELC wingers?

You think you’re setting the framework and rationale for Marner being a unique case but it doesn’t hold. Not when there were 3 other forwards in his age group putting up similar numbers during the 2018 and 2019 seasons and they all signed for significantly less the same summer. Particularly the 90+ point center (who went on to lead a team to a Stanley Cup one year later).

 

[Stephen]

Do you think there is enough sample size of the last two seasons with Barzal where his 85 point rookie season was a fluke, since he's followed that up with 62 and 60 point seasons. So basically was it more him playing behind John Tavares in his rookie season for getting that number or is Barry Trotz this great defensive coach who changed his game and that's why his point totals have dropped?

I think it’s unfortunate for Barzal that he had his big production in year one and then the Islanders have been smart about deflating his production Lou Lamoriello styles over the past 2 years. Interesting to see how that resolves itself.

 

[zeke]

Gonna take a look at Evolving-Wild's 3yr weighted average / age curve player rating tool and see how each player looked at the time they signed their contracts.

All grades are percentiles i.e. 1-99. (you'll notice that for good reasons they weight pure offense much more heavily than pure defense).

Point (23): 99 (98 off, 68 def)
McDavid (20): 98 (96 off, 58 def)
Matthews (22): 96 (98 off, 7 def)
Marner (22): 93 (93 off, 55 def)
Rantanen (23): 92 (95 off, 24 def)
Barzal (23): 90 (87 off, 41 def)
Draisaitl (22): 89 (91 off, 19 def)
Aho (22): 87 (87 off, 20 def)
MacKinnon (21): 79 (73 off, 17 def)
Ehlers (21): 74 (63 off, 22 def)
Nylander (22): 70 (80 off, 9 def)
Konecny (22): 67 (79 off, 5 def)
Eichel (21): 64 (69 off, 5 def)


Marner comes out looking better than I thought tbh.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Looking back at the summer of 2019, there was a great group of comparable RFA FORWARDS coming out of the 2014 and 2015 drafts who put up spectacular numbers on their ELCs, each one of Rantanen, Aho, Marner, Point hit at least 83 points, with Marner and Point hitting 92 and 94 points respectively.

Unfortunately, players aren't given contracts based entirely on their single-season raw point totals with absolutely zero context and complete dismissal of all production-impacting factors. Marner was a better player than the others, as I already showed you.

Marner was also furnished with an $11 million superstar center which the others were not.

Uhh.. did you miss Point playing with the league MVP and Art Ross winner that outscored him by 36 points? Or one of the best goal-scorers of his generation in Stamkos? Or Rantanen playing with Mackinnon, who many consider a top two player in the world? Both also had them for multiple years.

Marner did not have better linemate quality through his pre-signing period than the others. If we were to rank their linemate quality, it would probably be more like Point >>> Rantanen >> Marner >= Aho.

With reference to Matthews and Eichel, they set the higher bar than the group mentioned above which Marner ended up landing between.

Eichel did not set a higher bar. Marner was better than Eichel in their pre-signing periods.

So really, it came down to whether Marner should be considered to be part of the Aho, Rantanen, Point cohort, or the Matthews and Eichel cohort.

In actuality, Aho, Rantanen, Point, and Eichel were closer together, and Matthews/McDavid were closer together, and Marner was in between. Their contracts reflect that.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Uhh.. did you miss Point playing with the league MVP and Art Ross winner that outscored him by 36 points? Or one of the best goal-scorers of his generation in Stamkos? Or Rantanen playing with Mackinnon, who many consider a top two player in the world? Both also had them for multiple years.

I'm not saying I wasn't happy to see Marner get 94 points and Tavares get 47 goals/88 points when they played together during the 2018-19 Season. So how is that any different when Point was able to record 92 points playing with Kucherov when he got 128 points.

 

[Stephen]

Unfortunately, players aren't given contracts based entirely on their single-season raw point totals with absolutely zero context and complete dismissal of all production-impacting factors. Marner was a better player than the others, as I already showed you.

Uhh.. did you miss Point playing with the league MVP and Art Ross winner that outscored him by 36 points? Or one of the best goal-scorers of his generation in Stamkos? Or Rantanen playing with Mackinnon, who many consider a top two player in the world? Both also had them for multiple years.

Marner did not have better linemate quality through his pre-signing period than the others. If we were to rank their linemate quality, it would probably be more like Point >>> Rantanen >> Marner >= Aho.

Eichel did not set a higher bar. Marner was better than Eichel in their pre-signing periods.

In actuality, Aho, Rantanen, Point, and Eichel were closer together, and Matthews/McDavid were closer together, and Marner was in between. Their contracts reflect that.

The sequence of events of 2015 picks getting $10+ million salaries started with Connor McDavid. As a generational talent coming off a 100 point season he was given a $12.5 million deal over 8 years which set the bar for what a franchise center makes. This was a pretty significant jump on Kane, Toews, Kopitar who were the previous high bar, guys who have been a part of 5 separate Stanley Cup championships mind you.

Next came Jack Eichel, who settled at $10 million with the Sabres. This salary was not reflective of his production at the time but as the next generation of franchise center he was dragged up by McDavid. This process also dragged up Matthews. Matthews has never produced anywhere near McDavid but has long been hyped as number two of their draft eras, superseding Jack Eichel very early on. He gets an AAV that splits the difference between Eichel and McDavid.

The true irony here is that each one of Aho, Rantanen, Marner, Point (and Barzal) have single season career highs that are superior to Auston Matthews and Jack Eichel due to injuries and other factors, so teams are valuing Eichel and Matthews as part of a franchise center category that the others are excluded from.

What’s different about Marner versus Aho, Point and Rantanen is teams were able to successfully decouple pure points production from their AAV price tags whereas Marner’s group was able to successfully attach his value to Matthews salary. Since he produced so much in 2019, they successfully hitched his contract to the franchise center cohort.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The true irony here is that each one of Aho, Rantanen, Marner, Point (and Barzal) have single season career highs that are superior to Auston Matthews and Jack Eichel due to injuries and other factors, so teams are valuing Eichel and Matthews as part of a franchise center category that the others are excluded from.

While it's true Aho, Rantanen, Marner, Point, and Barzal have had better overall point production compared to Matthews, they haven't scored as many goals in a season compared to Matthews. So that's something which sets them apart.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'm not saying I wasn't happy to see Marner get 94 points and Tavares get 47 goals/88 points when they played together during the 2018-19 Season. So how is that any different when Point was able to record 92 points playing with Kucherov when he got 128 points.

I mean, just read your own post, and it's a pretty good starting point. Marner outproduced his linemates, was the main driver of his line every single year, and outproduced Point through their pre-signing periods, despite being younger. He had also had a significant sample driving PP units to elite production, even without the help of the team's other best players, and unlike Point, he played the PK.

Point, on the other hand, was massively outscored by his linemate; falling behind Kucherov by 36 points. He had not shown much PP ability until his big year, where he was still the 3rd best producer on a unit that posted a wildly unsustainable OISH%, yet he still got more PP time than Marner had ever gotten, boosting his numbers.

The Point contract is pretty good, all things considered, but it's also half the term, and pointing to a single-season raw point total without context is not how this works. Point's 3rd season was still worse, Point's pre-signing period was still worse, and he did not have nearly as much of a case at the time for his individual quality and impact.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I mean, just read your own post, and it's a pretty good starting point. Marner outproduced his linemates, was the main driver of his line every single year, and outproduced Point through their pre-signing periods, despite being younger. He had also had a significant sample driving PP units to elite production, even without the help of the team's other best players, and unlike Point, he played the PK.

Point, on the other hand, was massively outscored by his linemate; falling behind Kucherov by 36 points. He had not shown much PP ability until his big year, where he was still the 3rd best producer on a unit that posted a wildly unsustainable OISH%, yet he still got more PP time than Marner had ever gotten, boosting his numbers.

The Point contract is pretty good, all things considered, but it's also half the term, and pointing to a single-season raw point total without context is not how this works. Point's 3rd season was still worse, Point's pre-signing period was still worse, and he did not have nearly as much of a case at the time for his individual quality and impact.

Since Brayden Point ended up with 92 points in 79 games played, there is a good chance he could have tied or past Marner in total points if he did not miss those 3 games.