Kyle Dubas appreciation / hot seat discussion ***Mod warning in OP***

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Damn, you remember 1937? Kudos on mastering the computer. Hell kudos on being alive.

In all seriousness though, unions played a huge role in history, and no one should take the reforms they won for granted.

But the reforms have been won, and in large part the mentality that was needed then is toxic now, and has no place in a well run organization.
I'll agree some aspects of collective agreements are out of wack, but I wouldn't trouble yourself about it, we've entered the era of takeaways and it's going to get much worse before it gets better. If the youth of today think things are bad now, they're in for a shock because "winter is coming.............."
 
I agree we're all "just chewing the fat here," but nobody cares? Express a opinion questioning the direction the GM is moving the team is equated to "hatred," have a opinion different the the majority of the sheep and your labeled as negative, I could go on, but you get the gist.

This applies to a very small minority, nothing to get worked up about.
 
Dubas overall has done well, his RFA signing negotiation skills have thus far shown to be poor (still getting over that), outside of that (and the decision to keep Sparks) he’s been good. He’s done a great job of addressing many lineup issues this team had from last year while staying within a tight cap. Our PP already looks more creative with the new assistant coaches he’s brought in. Our defensive schemes look better (eg. no stretch pass!)

All that said, its honestly time to move on from this thread for now. Time to be pumped about the season, 2 days away folks! This team is stacked and legit cup contenders, at the very least, for this year! Lets not be angry right now about whats done, we’ll have plenty of time and opportunity for that I’m sure :)
 
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Marner and Dermott belong to Hunter more than anyone. He controlled the draft board. Marner was Hunter and solely Hunter and his scouting staff. Nylander was prior.

There are four players on the entire team from before Dubas started: Rielly, Johnsson, Gauthier and Nylander. There's also Engvall who seems to have NHLer written on him.

From when Lou started (though Kyle was working under him at the time) we have: Matthews*,
Andersen, Liljegren
*, Korshkov, Woll.

Matthews was an easy #1 pick and Liljegren was also a no brainer. The one piece Lou deserves big credit for is Andersen.

Not counting the recent draft (which many pundits say they did quite well at) or the recent signings that may be NHL or AHL, just NHL bodies or ones seeming to currently have higher potential but here's how the rest looks under Kyle: Marner, Dermott, Hyman, Kapanen, Tavares, Muzzin, Barrie, Spezza, Kerfoot, Ceci, Bracco, Sandin, Lindgren, Timashov.

There is one player on this team that has been on the team more than three seasons and four in the organization for more than three seasons and most of what is here is under Kyle's watch.

He's got some bigger contracts but for the first time ever, they are all on the guys who should have bigger contracts and who are either entering their primes or in their primes.

While being tight to the cap, he dealt with his crappy inherited contracts and addressed RHD by adding potentially two top 4 RHD (albeit temporarily) and not giving up any of his top 3 prospects at the time. He's twice traded down and secured Sandin, Dermott and Bracco.

Just about the only complaint to be had is contracts to stars but again, at least it is being spent in the right places.

Will be interesting to see how he manoeuvres next season.
 
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I'd wager if you asked Dubas or someone from the front office group whether or not the Marner aav was an overpay they'd probably say "yes"but would respond that it was fundamentally worth it because 1) avoided a Nylander esq season disruption and got the asset in camp ready to go 100% for.the start of the season 2) despite it being higher than expected it still fits in the teams cap structure moving forward.

So its fair to be critical of it, but way too many folks are acting like Chicken Littles before the season starts. This was a long term gamble - will have to wait and see how it pays off.

The main problem is that folks seem to think contracts are zero sum games where one side has to lose. Rather better way to look at it as each of these moves/decisions as part of a wider team building strategy. Overpay on your star players just means you don't get to spend a couple million on a 4th line winger to play 7 min a night (which is what I'm fine with)
 
I'd wager if you asked Dubas or someone from the front office group whether or not the Marner aav was an overpay they'd probably say "yes"but would respond that it was fundamentally worth it because 1) avoided a Nylander esq season disruption and got the asset in camp ready to go 100% for.the start of the season 2) despite it being higher than expected it still fits in the teams cap structure moving forward.

So its fair to be critical of it, but way too many folks are acting like Chicken Littles before the season starts. This was a long term gamble - will have to wait and see how it pays off.

The main problem is that folks seem to think contracts are zero sum games where one side has to lose. Rather better way to look at it as each of these moves/decisions as part of a wider team building strategy. Overpay on your star players just means you don't get to spend a couple million on a 4th line winger to play 7 min a night (which is what I'm fine with)
there's also a difference between market value and on ice value imo. The market value for Marner is clearly lower than what he got, but I believe there's still a strong chance Marner actually brings an excess in value in terms of his play
 
There are four players on the entire team from before Dubas started: Rielly, Johnsson, Gauthier and Nylander. There's also Engvall who seems to have NHLer written on him.

From when Lou started (though Kyle was working under him at the time) we have: Matthews*,
Andersen, Liljegren
*, Korshkov, Woll.

Matthews was an easy #1 pick and Liljegren was also a no brainer. The one piece Lou deserves big credit for is Andersen.

Not counting the recent draft (which many pundits say they did quite well at) or the recent signings that may be NHL or AHL, just NHL bodies or ones seeming to currently have higher potential but here's how the rest looks under Kyle: Marner, Dermott, Hyman, Kapanen, Tavares, Muzzin, Barrie, Spezza, Kerfoot, Ceci, Bracco, Sandin, Lindgren, Timashov.

There is one player on this team that has been on the team more than three seasons and four in the organization for more than three seasons and most of what is here is under Kyle's watch.

He's got some bigger contracts but for the first time ever, they are all on the guys who should have bigger contracts and who are either entering their primes or in their primes.

While being tight to the cap, he dealt with his crappy inherited contracts and addressed RHD by adding potentially two top 4 RHD (albeit temporarily) and not giving up any of his top 3 prospects at the time. He's twice traded down and secured Sandin, Dermott and Bracco.

Just about the only complaint to be had is contracts to stars but again, at least it is being spent in the right places.

Will be interesting to see how he manoeuvres next season.
The 2015 draft picks deserve to be fully attributed to Hunter. That wasn’t Dubas. So remove Marner and Dermott at the very least.
 
The 2015 draft picks deserve to be fully attributed to Hunter. That wasn’t Dubas. So remove Marner and Dermott at the very least.

Maybe? I know there's an obvious Hunter/Marner connection but I also know Dubas loves skill and I can't think of a more skilled player available than Marner. I also know Dubas has shown he'll trade down more than once for what he wants and has seemingly done quite well doing so each time.
 
With all the Dubas negativity due to RFA signings, here is my list of Leaf GMs since 1970 (worst to best),

Gord Stellick (Courtnall for Kordic)
John Ferguson Jr. (Rask for Raycroft and then trades for Toscola)
Floyd Smith (1991 1st round pick (#3-Scott Niedermayer) for Tom Kurvers)
Brian Burke -Seguin, Hamilton and Knight for Kessel -no playoff appearances
Jerry MacNamarra -Meh -3 playoff appearances in 7 seasons
Dave Nonnis -Meh -1 playoff appearance and the Phaneuf extension
Punch Imlach -destroys the team by trading McDonald to spite Sittler and subsequently trade Sittler
Ken Dryden -Lots of talk and 1 playoff appearance
Kyle Dubas (current GM -moves up or down based on future performance)
Lou Lamirello -lays groundwork for current team
Jim Gregory -8 playoff appearances but trades Carlyle and Ferguson for Burrows after beating #1 seed Islanders
Cliff Fletcher -acquired Doug Gilmour and Mats Sundin in blockbuster deals - 4 playoff appearances
Pat Quinn -1 division title and 4 playoff appearances in 4 seasons
 
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Anyone still want Lou?


Komorov over Ho sang and Hickey is a easy choice he is still a better player than a number 6/7 defender and a entitled bust. Martin sucks as a player and probably offers less on ice value than hickey, and ho sang but he brings a element of team culture that may impact the locker room. His deal currently sucks but having him on your 4th line vs ho sang (who would be a net negative in the bottom 6) is not a big deal.

With that said Lou is not a GM I would want back. He did his work helping repair the team and made solid moves and some questionable ones. His issue was he was overly patient. Did not make any moves to fix the back end. Dubas has shown he will make major trades in the form of Ceci, Muzzin, Barrie. Some can be attributed to leafs being in a different stage the 3 years Lou was here developmental wise but overall I would take Dubas over Lou for trades. I rather Lou in contract negotiations. Drafting also to dubas and team culture( all the weird rules Lou had) I like better now.
 
The 2015 draft picks deserve to be fully attributed to Hunter. That wasn’t Dubas. So remove Marner and Dermott at the very least.

We have no idea how that dynamic worked. They were both AGMs at the time. You have no basis to claim they should be fully attributed to anyone. It's not like Marner was some unknown gem Hunter pulled out of a hat. He was one of essentially two choices and the only person that reportedly wanted Hanifin was Babcock.
 
Maybe? I know there's an obvious Hunter/Marner connection but I also know Dubas loves skill and I can't think of a more skilled player available than Marner. I also know Dubas has shown he'll trade down more than once for what he wants and has seemingly done quite well doing so each time.
Marner was 100% Hofford and Hunter. No one was changing that. Whether Dubas agreed or not, who knows, but he had limited say at best in that decision.
 
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We have no idea how that dynamic worked. They were both AGMs at the time. You have no basis to claim they should be fully attributed to anyone. It's not like Marner was some unknown gem Hunter pulled out of a hat. He was one of essentially two choices and the only person that reportedly wanted Hanifin was Babcock.
The draft board was fully controlled by Hunter. Dubas has not say at that draft was on trades and trade down. And yes, some people do know how that dynamic worked. The same way people knew Hunter wasn’t going to work with Dubas if Dubas got the GM job.
 
We have no idea how that dynamic worked. They were both AGMs at the time. You have no basis to claim they should be fully attributed to anyone. It's not like Marner was some unknown gem Hunter pulled out of a hat. He was one of essentially two choices and the only person that reportedly wanted Hanifin was Babcock.
That is incorrect Shanny said both privately and publicly that Mark was the final decision in the 95 draft. Now I am sure they all discussed trading down. But to say it was a big win is still up in the air. If Bracco gets his chance on a top 2 line with Leafs at some point it will be a big win. But right now, and back then too, I would take TK over Dermy all day every day.
 
I'm a Habs fan that lives in Toronto. I don't hate the Leafs but I'm basically indifferent. I like to think I'm pretty unbiased when it comes to the Leafs.

This is basically the best Leafs roster I can remember. You guys are complaining about a $1M over-payment to some of the best players in the entire league. I used to squint at the Leafs roster and grimace at your top players.

I hope that provides some perspective.
 
Marner was 100% Hofford and Hunter. No one was changing that. Whether Dubas agreed or not, who knows, but he had limited say at best in that decision.
Well he was acting in the GM role so one would assume he had some say. Even if you removed Hunter and know what you do about Dubas' preferences, hard to imagine him picking anyone else.

Will be interesting to watch his trade downs unfold. Landed Dermott, Bracco, Sandin and Semyon Der-Arguchintsev (early but 8 pts in 3 GP) by trading down. Guy loves skill.
 
Well he was acting in the GM role so one would assume he had some say. Even if you removed Hunter and know what you do about Dubas' preferences, hard to imagine him picking anyone else.

Will be interesting to watch his trade downs unfold. Landed Dermott, Bracco, Sandin and Semyon Der-Arguchintsev (early but 8 pts in 3 GP) by trading down. Guy loves skill.
It was Hunter. Although, I will give Dubas credit in the cheap 1 year UFA deals we then traded at the 2016 deadline.
 
I'm a Habs fan that lives in Toronto. I don't hate the Leafs but I'm basically indifferent. I like to think I'm pretty unbiased when it comes to the Leafs.

This is basically the best Leafs roster I can remember. You guys are complaining about a $1M over-payment to some of the best players in the entire league. I used to squint at the Leafs roster and grimace at your top players.

I hope that provides some perspective.

Sometimes it makes me laugh a little. It's like people don't remember the roster from before the last 3 seasons:

 
If persistent headaches means icing rosters like then the one we have now, I really don't see the problem.



How is anonymously posting something positive about the team going to make Dubas less accountable? We're just chewing the fat here, I'm pretty sure nobody cares.



Reminds me of the story about when Cott was going to be coming out with a new lolly-pop, they were going to be called Cott-suckers. ;)

They were going to sell them in bunches ;)
 

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